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I misled us on the issue of divorce - wrong interpretation

Jethro Bodine said:
I wonder if he realizes that his explanation only applies to Jews, not the gentile church? IOW, nothing he said applies to us gentile Christians anyway.
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Yes it did.

You have been raised in the Bible Belt.
Almost the buckle of it.
Culturally a Christian nation. (Despite what the ACLU claims)
Just like an Israeli citizen would in Jesus' day.

You have no excuse for behavior that would make a spouse question your relationship with God.
 
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Hospes said:
Because we have intertwined civil law with the marriage covenant, it is virtually impossible to separate for the purpose of reconciliation without dissolving the civil law connections.
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I'm not saying it doesn't. In fact, I think it important that it does to some extent. Otherwise you have the problems Deborah was describing.

Hospes said:
Mind you, the wife remains committed to the covenant "until death do us part" and she is committed to praying that God would grant her husband repentance. Finally, I am saying this is done to save a marriage only as the very last resort.
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What is done? Legal separation, or divorce?
I'm saying divorce is never allowed as a last resort for the unhappy Christian where neither adultery or abandonment has occurred.

I will say I can see the very real danger of someone dishonestly using legal separation to get a quasi-divorce when grounds for one don't exist. But I think it would be pretty evident if someone was getting a legal separation simply because they weren't attracted to their spouse anymore. They would still have to answer to God for leading the other person into adultery when no reasonable grounds for separation existed in the first place (simply not liking your spouse is hardly a reason to separate that God would somehow approve).
 
wondering said:
JohnDB
Everything to you is culturally based. How one dresses, getting a divorce.
How about coming around to letting everything be God based??

And you're very good at explaining to people how it's okay to not act like a Christian.
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Surely we need to understand the culture at the time the bible both OT/NT was written and to whom it was written to. The bible we have today was written in the modern culture of the day. If we beleive as we do then the bible we have that has been written over a few thousand years is God based and God inspired at the time it was written.

Putting aside the discussion we are all having at the moment there are issues in the NT that were addressed that were culturally acceptable at the time but today they are not and vice versa, one example being the role of females in the church. Now I'm not looking for a theological debate here so please don't start one, which is why I won't give my thoughts on this but I encourage you to research yourself.

So what I'm trying to say is that we need to understand the culture of the day, what is relevant today and what is not.
We need to apply what is written in the bible to today's culture and not allow the culture of today to interpret and change what the blessed God breathed word of God is really getting at.
 
JohnDB said:
Yes it did.

You have been raised in the Bible Belt.
Almost the buckle of it.
Culturally a Christian nation. (Despite what the ACLU claims)
Just like an Israeli citizen would in Jesus' day.

You have no excuse.
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You said Jesus was talking to Jews who, presumably, married a woman thinking they were faithful Jews, and so could divorce their spouses on the basis of their unfaithfulness to God once they discovered it. I contrasted this with Paul's counsel to stay with the person who they are married to who is unfaithful to God. You pointed out the differences in upbringing and religious culture to defend the contrast. Okay, let's go with that. I'm a gentile Christian, so in your doctrine Paul's counsel is what applies to me, not Jesus'. And Paul plainly says to NOT divorce the spouse who is an unbeliever because, presumably, that's how it was to begin with.
 
Wrg1405 said:
So what I'm trying to say is that we need to understand the culture of the day, what is relevant today and what is not.
We need to apply what is written in the bible to today's culture and not allow the culture of today to interpret and change what the blessed God breathed word of God is really getting at.
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And as I'm pointing out, that means the gentile church can not divorce their spouses except for reason of adultery and abandonment. I think that applies to Jews, too, but I'm pointing out the flaw in John DB's doctrine regarding the church.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
You said Jesus was talking to Jews who, presumably, married a woman thinking they were faithful Jews, and so could divorce their spouses on the basis of their unfaithfulness to God once they discovered it. I contrasted this with Paul's counsel to stay with the person who they are married to who is unfaithful to God. You pointed out the differences in upbringing and religious culture to defend the contrast. Okay, let's go with that. I'm a gentile Christian, so in your doctrine Paul's counsel is what applies to me, not Jesus'. And Paul plainly says to NOT divorce the spouse who is an unbeliever because, presumably, that's how it was to begin with.
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No, more like what Jesus said.

You are a Christian and marry a Christian woman.

One day you or she discovers a laundry list of inappropriate behavior...

You confront them. They refuse to abandon the behavior...in fact the behavior leads to more sinful behavior and lifestyle. Your standing with the sinful spouse is an endorsement of their lifestyle.

Or you can leave and divorce and be more careful with the next choice... Because your life is a witness to others as to who God is.
 
JohnDB said:
You have no excuse for behavior that would make a spouse question your relationship with God.
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But what I'm saying is it's not grounds for divorce, according to Paul. Which is exactly contrary to what you said Jesus was supposedly explaining to the Jews.
 
JohnDB said:
You are a Christian and marry a Christian woman.

One day you or she discovers a laundry list of inappropriate behavior...

You confront them. They refuse to abandon the behavior...in fact the behavior leads to more sinful behavior and lifestyle. Your standing with the sinful spouse is an endorsement of their lifestyle.

Or you can leave and divorce and be more careful with the next choice... Because your life is a witness to others as to who God is.
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Completely and utterly contrary to what Paul said to do.
 
JohnDB said:
Different crowd and different motives.
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I know, I get that part of your argument.
The point is, what Jesus said to his people in his culture (according to your argument) in no way shape or form applies to the gentile church we've been discussing here and which is relevant to us.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
What is done? Legal separation, or divorce?
I'm saying divorce is never allowed as a last resort for the unhappy Christian where neither adultery or abandonment has occurred.
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If it helps, I'll use the term "legal separation" rather than divorce. Though, I am not sure the difference, in the eyes of the state, what the difference is. (I wonder if at the time of Jesus' ministry there was a way to legally separate but not divorce.)

What's ironic is I find I am more quick to pursue legal separation for the sake of reconciliation, while holding the more constrained belief that there are no Biblical grounds for divorce.

My dirty and horribly unconstrained garage is calling for my attention. I will check in when I can.
 
JohnDB said:
Because you are a Jew by heritage...not DNA.
Stop being emotional and instead think carefully about what I am saying and read clearly.

Motives motives motives.
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No, you can't do that. You cant' explain how I come from a gentile, idolatrous background and, therefore, have to stay with an unbelieving spouse because I knew that's what she was, then try to impress Jesus' teaching about divorce on me because I'm somehow now a Jew.
 
Wrg1405 said:
Surely we need to understand the culture at the time the bible both OT/NT was written and to whom it was written to.
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This is a common fallacy which is vigorously promoted by the naysayers when they wish to depart from Bible truth. If the Word of God was constrained by "culture" there would be no Christianity. We could simply dismiss everything in the Bible because our culture is totally alien to Hebrew culture. But this is what the Devil would have Christians believe.

On the other hand, the Holy Spirit would have us believe the opposite (2 Tim 3:16,17). Getting back to the matter of divorce (a) it was only permitted because of the hardness of men's hearts, (b) it is permitted (not decreed) by Christ on the grounds of adultery by the offending spouse, and (c) it is permitted by the Holy Spirit when an unbelieving spouse abandons a believer. Christian marriage is meant to represent the Marriage of Christ to the Church. Once Christians grasp the significance of this truth, they will not follow the ways of the world. And if they do, there are consequences.
 
Hospes said:
If it helps, I'll use the term "legal separation" rather than divorce. Though, I am not sure the difference, in the eyes of the state, what the difference is.
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Well, I'm no legal expert, but I'm confident that you can not remarry while only legally separated. You surely would have to get an actual divorce to be able to legally remarry. So I think the distinction is essential for this discussion.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
No, you can't do that. You cant' explain how I come from a gentile, idolatrous background and, therefore, have to stay with an unbelieving spouse because I knew that's what she was, then try to impress Jesus' teaching about divorce on me because I'm somehow now a Jew.
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Because you are an American. You have lived in that Christian culture. When you marry you will want a Christian wife...and pick one. She will claim to be a Christian too. You don't doubt her word as you are infatuated with her.

When all of a sudden she wants a heathen lifestyle you have every right to fling a fit.
And divorce her.

Of course you will be heartbroken. But that heartbreak will be less than the one created by getting other baby Christians to do as your soon to be ex wife does all of them citing you as license to behave in such a fashion.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
And as I'm pointing out, that means the gentile church can not divorce their spouses except for reason of adultery and abandonment. I think that applies to Jews, too, but I'm pointing out the flaw in John DB's doctrine regarding the church.
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Hi my friend, as I said my post was aside of the discussion that is now 186 posts long and by the time I finish this post will probably have increased.

You mention JDB'S flawed doctrine, truth is to you it's flawed and probabley vice versa (but I can't speak for his thoughts) The truth is there is one church built on one foundation which is Christ. Sad fact is there are denominations that have different doctrines which I feel can detract from the doctrine of Jesus himself "whoever beleives in me shall be saved (please note I'm not advocating greasy grace here) it breaks my heart, it makes me cry, it makes me throw my hands up in despair, it makes me doubt.

I was once told because I don't speak in tongues regularly (I can count no more than 10 times I have prayed in tongues and when I was I did not know I was until I finished and I was on my own) then I was not saved as I did not have the Holy Spirit in me. That was the doctrine of the church I was in. Is that sound doctrine? I thought so at the time then I spent so many years beleiveing I wasn't saved. It detracted from the doctrine of Christ and at times when I dared to believe I considered myself useless/worthless and hoped I would scrape in by skin of my teeth. I envisaged the conversation with God. "Hi Bill, right you believed in Jesus, more importantly how many times did you pray in tongues? "No more then 10 God" "Oh dear is that all? "Hey Jesus shall we let him in?

Not being irreverent honestly I'm not.

What I'm trying to say is that even though we have doctrinal issues that arise from our interpretation of the bible whether it be through our Berean efforts or what we are told if it detracts from the doctrine of Christ then it can heap condemnation on those we speak to, it could stop people from coming to Christ, it could wound a fellow believer and make them ineffective.
 
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Malachi said:
This is a common fallacy which is vigorously promoted by the naysayers when they wish to depart from Bible truth. If the Word of God was constrained by "culture" there would be no Christianity. We could simply dismiss everything in the Bible because our culture is totally alien to Hebrew culture. But this is what the Devil would have Christians believe.

On the other hand, the Holy Spirit would have us believe the opposite (2 Tim 3:16,17). Getting back to the matter of divorce (a) it was only permitted because of the hardness of men's hearts, (b) it is permitted (not decreed) by Christ on the grounds of adultery by the offending spouse, and (c) it is permitted by the Holy Spirit when an unbelieving spouse abandons a believer. Christian marriage is meant to represent the Marriage of Christ to the Church. Once Christians grasp the significance of this truth, they will not follow the ways of the world. And if they do, there are consequences.
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Correct me if I am wrong but are you saying I'm a 'naysayer? If so I refute that most vehemently. I love the word of God, I'm spend hours in the word of God, I look to apply it to today's culture without detracting from the truth and Character of God, without detracting from Jesus. I certainly do not allow the culture of today to CONSTRAIN what the bible says. What I seek to do is let the word of God change the culture of today. I don't talk greasy grace, I talk the grace of God and how it should change us, I talk that Jesus wants to change us, to conform us to his image and not what the world teaches us.
 
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