I misled us on the issue of divorce - wrong interpretation

[Jethro Bodine]

hey were using their new found beliefs as an excuse...and looking to the church to support them when they divorced.

Still doesn't add up.
You're saying Jesus says a believer can divorce on the grounds of unbelief. Paul plainly says a believer can NOT divorce on the grounds of unbelief--they must leave on their own.

 

[JohnDB]

All I get out of your explanation is 'it's okay to divorce, and have multiple wives'.

No. Not what I have explained nor what I think is acceptable.

I know that you know better.

What I've explained is that there are justifiable reasons for divorce. That it's mostly because of real abuse of some kind. And that since we aren't made to be alone that remarriage isn't a sin/transgression .

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No. Not what I have explained nor what I think is acceptable.

I know that you know better.

What I've explained is that there are justifiable reasons for divorce. That it's mostly because of real abuse of some kind. And that since we aren't made to be alone that remarriage isn't a sin/transgression .

Ridiculous.
This is exactly why the divorce rate is so high in the church. We've been teaching the church you can leave when you're unhappy and unfulfilled because of the other person. I'm amazed that you and others can't see this means nothing more than you are allowed to divorce your spouse and go get who you really think will please you. I see no incentive whatsoever in your explanation that would lead a person to conclude 'I need to stay with my spouse'.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Your explanation of the grounds for divorce is so wide and encompassing that there really is nothing keeping the unhappy 'Christian' from divorcing their displeasing spouse.

 

[JohnDB]

Still doesn't add up.
You're saying Jesus says a believer can divorce on the grounds of unbelief. Paul plainly says a believer can NOT divorce on the grounds of unbelief--they must leave on their own.

Think about it. Two different groups of people. Different morality norms that they grew up around. One is raised with God as a center point in the culture and one is raised next door to the brothel and every god imaginable providing sex and violence entertainment.

Who you marry will be a result of that culture. How they behave will be inside those cultural norms.

Telling someone who grew up in a heathen culture that they can't divorce their husband (whom they don't respect) just because they recently joined the church is an "of course".

Telling someone who married a man who claimed to believe in God but then has no actions that support that is releasing them from a fraudulent contract and the subsequent abuse.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Telling someone who married a man who claimed to believe in God but then has no actions that support that is releasing them from a fraudulent contract and the subsequent abuse.

You're dishonestly adding that scenario to what Jesus was addressing.

 

[JohnDB]

Ridiculous.
This is exactly why the divorce rate is so high in the church. We've been teaching the church you can leave when you're unhappy and unfulfilled because of the other person. I'm amazed that you and others can't see this means nothing more than you are allowed to divorce your spouse and go get who you really think will please you. I see no incentive whatsoever in your explanation that would lead a person to conclude 'I need to stay with my spouse'.

Unhappy?
Unfulfilled?

And how does that somehow relate to fraud or abuse?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Unhappy?
Unfulfilled?

And how does that somehow relate to fraud or abuse?

I'm pretty sure fraud and abuse makes a person unhappy.

 

[GodsGrace]

Only in that sexual sin is a sin against the body. All other sins being outside the body (1 Corinthians 6:18 NASB).

Jethro,
Do you not believe that marriage is a covenant? Was God not present at all weddings celebrated in a church?

W

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro,
Do you not believe that marriage is a covenant?

Of course I believe that.
What I also believe is that covenants can be broken.
Adultery ends the covenant of marriage between two people.

 

[GodsGrace]

Think about it. Two different groups of people. Different morality norms that they grew up around. One is raised with God as a center point in the culture and one is raised next door to the brothel and every god imaginable providing sex and violence entertainment.

Who you marry will be a result of that culture. How they behave will be inside those cultural norms.

Telling someone who grew up in a heathen culture that they can't divorce their husband (whom they don't respect) just because they recently joined the church is an "of course".

Telling someone who married a man who claimed to believe in God but then has no actions that support that is releasing them from a fraudulent contract and the subsequent abuse.

JohnDB
Everything to you is culturally based. How one dresses, getting a divorce.
How about coming around to letting everything be God based??

And you're very good at explaining to people how it's okay to not act like a Christian.

W

 

[JohnDB]

You're dishonestly adding that scenario to what Jesus was addressing.

Somehow I've created out of whole cloth these two famous rabbinical schools?
Somehow I've created hundreds of years of customs and practices (anthropology)?

All of what I have told is easily researchable... It's how I learned. It's well known history. One simply has to not let their learning end at what comes from a pulpit.

I believed as you do for decades. Then I did my own research and found the truth. I was so wrong.
I really hated to admit that I had been so harsh and unforgiving on the subject. I was hypocritical and mean when I didn't want to be.

Find fault with my research on the two rabbi I mentioned. Find fault with the anthropology.
But I am not being dishonest.

 

[JohnDB]

JohnDB
Everything to you is culturally based. How one dresses, getting a divorce.
How about coming around to letting everything be God based??

And you're very good at explaining to people how it's okay to not act like a Christian.

W

Just the opposite.

I want people to be extremely careful with life choices like a life partner. With clothing options. With regards to what to embrace and what to reject...especially when it comes to hypocrisy, forgiveness, and loving kindness.

It's ALL about God...ALWAYS.
Stuff happens but I know an amazing God who fixes the "stuff" that happens.

 

[Deborah13]

His violence doesn't make a separation not a viable option to divorce. Anyone who would do this would also kill her after a divorce.

He/she certainly could decide to kill but most don't.

Abusers who can't control their victims anymore, and know they can't, will seek to destroy their victim. They will do that in accordance with whatever kind of person they are. I'm not at all naive about these things.

Yes, it depends on the person what they do.

I see no reason why moving out without actually getting a divorce is not a reasonable, godly answer to these situations. The same laws and justice system that protects the victim in an actual divorce are there to protect them in a legal separation.

It's not about what the legal system does, it's about the way the abuser sees things. A separation leaves open the door for reconciliation and they are Still the spouse with certain rights. In the case that I spoke of the man had no fear of man's law or laws. This man laughed in the judge's face when he put the restraining order on him. It was a state of the relationship in his own mind. A separation did not stop him but the finality of a divorce did.
In scripture a separation can only be for a time, but a divorce is final. Does a divorced man have rights over his wife? She is no longer his wife.

No, no, don't misunderstand. The celibacy within marriage I was talking about is when your spouse is the one who doesn't want the marriage and it leaves you living in celibacy by their choice and it tempts you to initiate the divorce.

Yes and they are sinning.

 

[Hospes]

The difficulty is when I am faced with a horrible mess of a marriage and at least one spouse has no real interest/ability in valuing God to the point of improving the marriage. I have now concluded that legal separation - a legal divorce - with a commitment to continued lifelong chastity and lifelong willingness to reform the marriage is the Biblical path forward.

Problem: It causes the other to commit adultery.

I think "cause" must mean something different to you than it does to me. Maybe if you explained how - in the circumstances I described - separating from a spouse "causes" one or the other to commit adultery.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Somehow I've created out of whole cloth these two famous rabbinical schools?
Somehow I've created hundreds of years of customs and practices (anthropology)?

All of what I have told is easily researchable... It's how I learned. It's well known history. One simply has to not let their learning end at what comes from a pulpit.

I believed as you do for decades. Then I did my own research and found the truth. I was so wrong.
I really hated to admit that I had been so harsh and unforgiving on the subject. I was hypocritical and mean when I didn't want to be.

Find fault with my research on the two rabbi I mentioned. Find fault with the anthropology.
But I am not being dishonest.

What you have explained is that there really isn't a problem with unlawful divorce in the church, because you redefined what constitutes an unlawful divorce.

He/she certainly could decide to kill but most don't.

But most rape so that merely separating is not a good answer, divorce is?

A separation did not stop him but the finality of a divorce did.

And I'm saying let the abuser do the deed, not the Christian. Unless the abuser commits adultery, which he probably will.

In scripture a separation can only be for a time, but a divorce is final. Does a divorced man have rights over his wife?

A legal separation removes the husband's marital rights.

Yes and they are sinning.

Yes, THEY are sinning.
The point being, did God say this would never happen to the Christian, or that they can sin (i.e. divorce) if it does? That's what I'm getting at. The church now thinks they can divorce for reasons not given by God, seemingly oblivious and completely unfamiliar with the comfort of God he gives when we don't get what our little selves want.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think "cause" must mean something different to you than it does to me. Maybe if you explained how - in the circumstances I described - separating from a spouse "causes" one or the other to commit adultery.

You described the circumstances of divorcing from a spouse for reasons other than infidelity or abandonment, correct?
Obviously, if you leave someone they're probably going to get into a new relationship. That's causing them to commit adultery. But it's okay to leave if they've already done the 'getting a new relationship' part.

 

[Hospes]

Why can't this be done IN a marriage?
Until such a time as the other one decides to leave, if they do that.

Because we have intertwined civil law with the marriage covenant, it is virtually impossible to separate for the purpose of reconciliation without dissolving the civil law connections. For instance, what if the wife is the breadwinner for her children, lives in a common property state, and is married to a guy that is a slothful bum and enjoys living off of his wife. To protect herself and her children, she has to dissolve the legal connection between herself and her husband. Mind you, the wife remains committed to the covenant "until death do us part" and she is committed to praying that God would grant her husband repentance. Finally, I am saying this is done to save a marriage only as the very last resort.

 

[JohnDB]

What you have explained is that there really isn't a problem with unlawful divorce in the church, because you redefined what constitutes an unlawful divorce.

Law is not codified any longer... Except upon our hearts.
Which is part of what I was alluding to.

What I am speaking to is behavior and attitudes. Which is what God cares and knows all about.

And I, and others, have seen plenty of good men and women demonized for something beyond their control. Pastors leaving the pulpits because they put faith in a person who had no faithfulness or committed fraud. Husbands being held hostage by conniving wives...and the list of sinful abuse by the anti divorce and remarry crowd or others using their hard line stance is not what Jesus had in mind.

And careful Hermeneutics refutes all that abuse.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

JohnDB
Everything to you is culturally based. How one dresses, getting a divorce.

I wonder if he realizes that his explanation only applies to Jews, not the gentile church? IOW, nothing he said applies to us gentile Christians anyway.