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I misled us on the issue of divorce - wrong interpretation

Wrg1405 said:
Why?
Click to expand...
Because Jesus said it.
There's even doubt as to what He really meant because of two different verses.

One is in Matthew:
Matthew 5:31-32
31“It was said, ‘WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE’;
32but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.


And, instead, in Mark ......
Mark 10:6-12
6“But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE.
7“FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER,
8AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh.
9“What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”
10In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again.
11And He said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her;
12and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery.”


The difference in the two gospels is that in Matthew Jesus says it would be acceptable to divorce in the case of adultery and instead in the gospel of Mark this exception is not made...so divorce would be prohibited in all cases.

Plainly stated,,,this is why a Christian person is not "allowed" to remarry if they wish to obey God's laws.
 
wondering said:
Because Jesus said it.
There's even doubt as to what He really meant because of two different verses.

One is in Matthew:
Matthew 5:31-32
31“It was said, ‘WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE’;
32but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.


And, instead, in Mark ......
Mark 10:6-12
6“But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE.
7“FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER,
8AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh.
9“What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”
10In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again.
11And He said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her;
12and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery.”


The difference in the two gospels is that in Matthew Jesus says it would be acceptable to divorce in the case of adultery and instead in the gospel of Mark this exception is not made...so divorce would be prohibited in all cases.

Plainly stated,,,this is why a Christian person is not "allowed" to remarry if they wish to obey God's laws.
Click to expand...

I'm very familiar with this view.

Does God forgive sin?
How well does God forgive sin?

Were women considered equal to men?
Did they have the same rights as men in the Ancient Near East?

What about the woman caught in the act of adultry?

What was a "put away" wife?

What does the full context of Malachi say about divorce?

What about polygamy?
How does this fact of life in Israel figure in this?

Any other anthropology (common knowledge) practices have relevance on why Jesus would say this?
 
JohnDB said:
I'm very familiar with this view.

Does God forgive sin?
How well does God forgive sin?

Were women considered equal to men?
Did they have the same rights as men in the Ancient Near East?

What about the woman caught in the act of adultry?

What was a "put away" wife?

What does the full context of Malachi say about divorce?

What about polygamy?
How does this fact of life in Israel figure in this?
Click to expand...
John,,,I'm going to answer, but I want it to be clear that I'm addressing what scripture teaches and not my own personal opinion.

1. God forgives sin.
But does God forgive ONGOING sin? Or, as some say, a LIFE OF SIN.

2. Women were not considered to be equal with men....and even less at the time of Jesus than at the time of Moses when the certificate of marriage was allowed. Woman were considered MORE equal with men at the time that Moses allowed divorce.

3. Women did not have the same rights...but Jesus made a plain and simple statement.

4. The Adulteress Woman is probably not even in original manuscripts. But I don't understand what adultery has to do with divorce. Adultery can be forgiven...divorce and remarriage is on-going adultery. HOW is that forgiven? Jesus told the woman to sin no more.

5. I can't remember what a put-away wife is. I used to know. I think the husband just didn't like her anymore and refused to support her?

6. I'm not too interested in what Malachai said when I have the words of Jesus.

7. Polygamy? Why bring this up?
 
wondering said:
John,,,I'm going to answer, but I want it to be clear that I'm addressing what scripture teaches and not my own personal opinion.

1. God forgives sin.
But does God forgive ONGOING sin? Or, as some say, a LIFE OF SIN.

2. Women were not considered to be equal with men....and even less at the time of Jesus than at the time of Moses when the certificate of marriage was allowed. Woman were considered MORE equal with men at the time that Moses allowed divorce.

3. Women did not have the same rights...but Jesus made a plain and simple statement.

4. The Adulteress Woman is probably not even in original manuscripts. But I don't understand what adultery has to do with divorce. Adultery can be forgiven...divorce and remarriage is on-going adultery. HOW is that forgiven? Jesus told the woman to sin no more.

5. I can't remember what a put-away wife is. I used to know. I think the husband just didn't like her anymore and refused to support her?

6. I'm not too interested in what Malachai said when I have the words of Jesus.

7. Polygamy? Why bring this up?
Click to expand...

What I can tell you is that there's a ton of past politics involved with this subject andsections of scripture starting all the way back to when the scriptures were first translated into English... probably before this point (in fact the questions posed to Jesus were about two important Rabbi who were diametrically opposed)

The ongoing sin thingy is referred to as a transgression. It refers to such sins as touching blood (midwifery) but stopping such things were worse than continuing in the practices.

Women were not anywhere near equal to men. They didn't get counted at any census. (Even the ones Moses took or the people counts at the times Jesus fed the multitudes)
They of course had NO access to the courts. They could not ask for a divorce....ever. no judge/Rabbi/Levite would grant one by the request of a wife.

A "put away wife" is a woman a man was married to that he tossed out of his home. He only had to give her the equivalent of three small egg's sized lumps of food per week. (Not even enough for a single meal) and still be inside the confines of the Law.
Then a man could afford to marry another woman... polygamy was perfectly acceptable for men under the Law.... again why did they allow and sometimes mandate this?

If you all of a sudden became a "put away wife" like Joseph was going to do to Mary what would you do? I mean, if you weren't pregnant but became "put away" through no fault of your own....what would you do?
You can't go back to your parents/family.... doing so would violate what the Law said.

What do you do?

You can't get a job.
Being a prostitute is not acceptable either.
What do you do?
 
JohnDB said:
What I can tell you is that there's a ton of past politics involved with this subject andsections of scripture starting all the way back to when the scriptures were first translated into English... probably before this point (in fact the questions posed to Jesus were about two important Rabbi who were diametrically opposed)

The ongoing sin thingy is referred to as a transgression. It refers to such sins as touching blood (midwifery) but stopping such things were worse than continuing in the practices.

Women were not anywhere near equal to men. They didn't get counted at any census. (Even the ones Moses took or the people counts at the times Jesus fed the multitudes)
They of course had NO access to the courts. They could not ask for a divorce....ever. no judge/Rabbi/Levite would grant one by the request of a wife.

A "put away wife" is a woman a man was married to that he tossed out of his home. He only had to give her the equivalent of three small egg's sized lumps of food per week. (Not even enough for a single meal) and still be inside the confines of the Law.
Then a man could afford to marry another woman... polygamy was perfectly acceptable for men under the Law.... again why did they allow and sometimes mandate this?

If you all of a sudden became a "put away wife" like Joseph was going to do to Mary what would you do? I mean, if you weren't pregnant but became "put away" through no fault of your own....what would you do?
You can't go back to your parents/family.... doing so would violate what the Law said.

What do you do?

You can't get a job.
Being a prostitute is not acceptable either.
What do you do?
Click to expand...
I agree with you.
I said I was stating scripture and not my personal opinion.

Jesus came to change all that...this is what the Kingdom of God is all about.
Christianity has changed so many things from that time.....
Christians were close and women were taken care of.

The poor were taken care of in the best way they could even in the O.T.
The book of Ruth taught many cultural practices of the time and some of the threshed wheat had to be left on the floor for the poor to pick up for food.

If a man died,,,his brother had to marry or take care of the wife.

Times were tough back then....we don't think of this when we read the bible.
We tend to project todays society back to that time.

But, so what are you saying?
Was Jesus wrong?
You DO realize WHY He taught this?
It was to protect the woman.
So women could NOT be given a cert of divorce.
So they could not be abandoned by a husband.

Jesus meant for the woman to be protected and for the children.
It's the same today.
Divorce causes havoc in a family.
Children today have gotten used to this and all the friends are probably
from divorced homes to, what with the high divorce rate...
but think back a couple of generations...it was devastating for a child.

If we truly lived as Christians, at least WE wouldn't be getting divorced....
but the statistics say we're just as bad.
 
wondering said:
I agree with you.
I said I was stating scripture and not my personal opinion.

Jesus came to change all that...this is what the Kingdom of God is all about.
Christianity has changed so many things from that time.....
Christians were close and women were taken care of.

The poor were taken care of in the best way they could even in the O.T.
The book of Ruth taught many cultural practices of the time and some of the threshed wheat had to be left on the floor for the poor to pick up for food.

If a man died,,,his brother had to marry or take care of the wife.

Times were tough back then....we don't think of this when we read the bible.
We tend to project todays society back to that time.

But, so what are you saying?
Was Jesus wrong?
You DO realize WHY He taught this?
It was to protect the woman.
So women could NOT be given a cert of divorce.
So they could not be abandoned by a husband.

Jesus meant for the woman to be protected and for the children.
It's the same today.
Divorce causes havoc in a family.
Children today have gotten used to this and all the friends are probably
from divorced homes to, what with the high divorce rate...
but think back a couple of generations...it was devastating for a child.

If we truly lived as Christians, at least WE wouldn't be getting divorced....
but the statistics say we're just as bad.
Click to expand...

wondering,

This is a thorny topic that has seen much debate in churches.

In my understanding, the NT gives two legitimate reasons for divorce:

7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”
8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery" (Matt 19:7-9 NIV).
Click to expand...
Here, from the mouth of Jesus we have one legitimate reason for divorce and remarriage - if one spouse commits adultery.

Secondly, we have another situation where divorce is permitted. By way of context, Paul says to the Corinthians:

10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife (1 Cor 7:10-11 NIV).
Click to expand...
If there is separation for unbiblical reasons, there are two options: (a) The spouse must remain unmarried, or (b) There is to be reconcilation with the spouses.

15 But if the unbeliever leaves, let it be so. The brother or the sister is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. 16 How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?
Click to expand...
17 Nevertheless, each person should live as a believer in whatever situation the Lord has assigned to them, just as God has called them. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches (1 Cor 7:15-17 NIV).
Click to expand...
If the non-Christian leaves the marriage, the brother or sister (Christian) is no longer bound to the marriage. Nothing is said here about remarriage. However, by inference from what Jesus' said about adultery and the possibility of remarriage, it could be safe to assume such is the case in 1 Cor 7.

Those are my understandings as a human interpreter of Scripture.

Oz
 
I have not yet sworn an oath using Gods name as a witness that for better or worse that I will stay married to someone till death.

I mean when people get married most the time both parties there intentions are good when they take an oath, but no one knows the future and one person turns for the worse and the other person ends up in horrible abusive relationships, sometimes both turn to the worse for each other destroying each other's souls. They need out.
 
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I'm a real hard-nose when it comes to marriage because I know how important that institution is to Christ. No matter the human reasonings and justifications, the Word/Lord looks down on divorce mightily. It is massively destructive to individuals/families/friends and society in general. Throughout our 37 years of marriage, my wife and I have had every biblical/social/legal reason to divorce and yet stuck it out. When I think back, there was really that one thing that kept me from pulling the plug........obedience.
 
OzSpen said:
wondering,

This is a thorny topic that has seen much debate in churches.

In my understanding, the NT gives two legitimate reasons for divorce:


Here, from the mouth of Jesus we have one legitimate reason for divorce and remarriage - if one spouse commits adultery.

Secondly, we have another situation where divorce is permitted. By way of context, Paul says to the Corinthians:


If there is separation for unbiblical reasons, there are two options: (a) The spouse must remain unmarried, or (b) There is to be reconcilation with the spouses.



If the non-Christian leaves the marriage, the brother or sister (Christian) is no longer bound to the marriage. Nothing is said here about remarriage. However, by inference from what Jesus' said about adultery and the possibility of remarriage, it could be safe to assume such is the case in 1 Cor 7.

Those are my understandings as a human interpreter of Scripture.

Oz
Click to expand...
Agreed on all.

But it's rather demanding,,,,isn't it??
 
kiwidan said:
I have not yet sworn an oath using Gods name as a witness that for better or worse that I will stay married to someone till death.

I mean when people get married most the time both parties there intentions are good when they take an oath, but no one knows the future and one person turns for the worse and the other person ends up in horrible abusive relationships, sometimes both turn to the worse for each other destroying each other's souls. They need out.
Click to expand...
Hi Kiwidan....
You say the couple can't know the future.

This is why they take an oath.
An oath is different from a promise.
a promise is made to another person...
an oath is made to God.
When two persons get married, God is there, present, as a witness.

And what does the oath state:
FOR BETTER OR FOR WORSE
FOR RICHER OR FOR POORER
IN SICKNESS AND IN HEALTH

The reason for this oath is exactly because things change in life.

You're not supposed to have "good intentions" when you get married.
That's not enough...you're supposed to understand that marriage is forever...
it's a commitment.

It's a great invention because it's SUPPOSED to make each partner feel very free and very secure.
It's great to age and get old with the person you married...who else can know you better?
 
daninthelionsden said:
I'm a real hard-nose when it comes to marriage because I know how important that institution is to Christ. No matter the human reasonings and justifications, the Word/Lord looks down on divorce mightily. It is massively destructive to individuals/families/friends and society in general. Throughout our 37 years of marriage, my wife and I have had every biblical/social/legal reason to divorce and yet stuck it out. When I think back, there was really that one thing that kept me from pulling the plug........obedience.
Click to expand...
Agreed, 100%

I can add that a lot of couple get married with the idea that if something goes wrong, they can always get divorced. This is the wrong way to go into what is supposed to be a life-long relationship.

Right from the get-go, the marriage is in trouble.
 
JohnDB said:
What I can tell you is that there's a ton of past politics involved with this subject andsections of scripture starting all the way back to when the scriptures were first translated into English... probably before this point (in fact the questions posed to Jesus were about two important Rabbi who were diametrically opposed)

The ongoing sin thingy is referred to as a transgression. It refers to such sins as touching blood (midwifery) but stopping such things were worse than continuing in the practices.

Women were not anywhere near equal to men. They didn't get counted at any census. (Even the ones Moses took or the people counts at the times Jesus fed the multitudes)
They of course had NO access to the courts. They could not ask for a divorce....ever. no judge/Rabbi/Levite would grant one by the request of a wife.

A "put away wife" is a woman a man was married to that he tossed out of his home. He only had to give her the equivalent of three small egg's sized lumps of food per week. (Not even enough for a single meal) and still be inside the confines of the Law.
Then a man could afford to marry another woman... polygamy was perfectly acceptable for men under the Law.... again why did they allow and sometimes mandate this?

If you all of a sudden became a "put away wife" like Joseph was going to do to Mary what would you do? I mean, if you weren't pregnant but became "put away" through no fault of your own....what would you do?
You can't go back to your parents/family.... doing so would violate what the Law said.

What do you do?

You can't get a job.
Being a prostitute is not acceptable either.
What do you do?
Click to expand...
the two rabbis were hillel and shimei. jesus sided with shimei on this one
 
wondering said:
Agreed, 100%

I can add that a lot of couple get married with the idea that if something goes wrong, they can always get divorced. This is the wrong way to go into what is supposed to be a life-long relationship.

Right from the get-go, the marriage is in trouble.
Click to expand...
like it or not as a nation and the west, we have transformed marriage to be to indivuals doing what they want, and so long as one is happy,, it will be a marriage. while im not suggesting slavery, older pre 1789 cultural america and up to the 20s when it slowly was being changed persons knew that one lost ones identity in a marriage. that is the gist of what i read a few days ago about marriage in a book given to me from my pastor.
 
jasonc said:
like it or not as a nation and the west, we have transformed marriage to be to indivuals doing what they want, and so long as one is happy,, it will be a marriage. while im not suggesting slavery, older pre 1789 cultural america and up to the 20s when it slowly was being changed persons knew that one lost ones identity in a marriage. that is the gist of what i read a few days ago about marriage in a book given to me from my pastor.
Click to expand...
Jason,,,,
What you say is absolutely true and a forgotten idea.

When a person gets married they need to lose a bit of themselves to please the other person.
The problem is that they BOTH need to do this and sometimes one is not willing.

In pre-cana this aspect of marriage is explored....but sometimes people don't even pay attention.

The same is true for when babies are born.
They're sooooooo cute!
Until they make you forget who you are and require all your attention.
But most mothers work nowadays and maybe this is not as much felt as before.
I CHOSE to stay home for about 13 or 14 years to raise my two children and I'm glad I did.
But not everyone can, for different reasons.

I think marriage is good and necessary for most persons,,,but, as they say,
you have to take the fat with the meat.
 
wondering said:
Agreed on all.

But it's rather demanding,,,,isn't it??
Click to expand...

wondering,

Yes, it's challenging. However, if there was more teaching on it in the churches, I think we'd see less divorces among Christians. I'm staggered at the number of Christian spouses who walk out on a marriage or commit adultery.

I was speaking to a person in another country via email. She and her husband used to live in my hometown and are personal friends. Both are long-term Christians. However, he committed adultery on her twice in their marriage. He died recently of dementia.

Oz
 
wondering said:
Jason,,,,
What you say is absolutely true and a forgotten idea.

When a person gets married they need to lose a bit of themselves to please the other person.
The problem is that they BOTH need to do this and sometimes one is not willing.

In pre-cana this aspect of marriage is explored....but sometimes people don't even pay attention.

The same is true for when babies are born.
They're sooooooo cute!
Until they make you forget who you are and require all your attention.
But most mothers work nowadays and maybe this is not as much felt as before.
I CHOSE to stay home for about 13 or 14 years to raise my two children and I'm glad I did.
But not everyone can, for different reasons.

I think marriage is good and necessary for most persons,,,but, as they say,
you have to take the fat with the meat.
Click to expand...
the western culture in general has become so out of balence that the church really is doing what God never intended it to. to wit being a parent, and also wives and husbands, while yes it should help in this manners it was always on the family to do this , not that it wasn't a problem at times. im sure during the early church amongst the gentiles it was broken too with this.

marriage for inheritance, boys for fun. that was common , in some areas, Corinth, in jewry that was not the case
 
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