I misled us on the issue of divorce - wrong interpretation

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

Yes, it's challenging. However, if there was more teaching on it in the churches, I think we'd see less divorces among Christians. I'm staggered at the number of Christian spouses who walk out on a marriage or commit adultery.

I was speaking to a person in another country via email. She and her husband used to live in my hometown and are personal friends. Both are long-term Christians. However, he committed adultery on her twice in their marriage. He died recently of dementia.

Oz

Yes,,,maybe it's the lack of teaching.
Maybe it's our loose and accepting society..everything goes.
When I was in my teens it was devastating for a couple to get divorced...
this was looked down upon. Now it's accepted.

Some couples don't even want to get married...they just live together thinking that this is better than having to get divorced later on .... which means that they already know it's not forever.

1:30 a.m. here.
check out my thread about fulfilling the law in Theology.
Too tired today for that topic..but will get to it tomorrow.
'night.

 

[jasonc]

Yes,,,maybe it's the lack of teaching.
Maybe it's our loose and accepting society..everything goes.
When I was in my teens it was devastating for a couple to get divorced...
this was looked down upon. Now it's accepted.

Some couples don't even want to get married...they just live together thinking that this is better than having to get divorced later on .... which means that they already know it's not forever.

1:30 a.m. here.
check out my thread about fulfilling the law in Theology.
Too tired today for that topic..but will get to it tomorrow.
'night.

I figure Italy is more conservative.

 

[GodsGrace]

the western culture in general has become so out of balence that the church really is doing what God never intended it to. to wit being a parent, and also wives and husbands, while yes it should help in this manners it was always on the family to do this , not that it wasn't a problem at times. im sure during the early church amongst the gentiles it was broken too with this.

marriage for inheritance, boys for fun. that was common , in some areas, Corinth, in jewry that was not the case

oooh. Almost missed this.
Agreed.
Got any solution?
Jewry was much more serious...as some sects are today.
'night Jason.,

 

[jasonc]

oooh. Almost missed this.
Agreed.
Got any solution?
Jewry was much more serious...as some sects are today.
'night Jason.,

most churches that want to follow jesus do some of this. of course more needs to be done. I cant help with the broken boys, not my gift. trust me I tried. I had this converstation with pastor last week as he made a comment about during covid outside of him making contacts few would return the call and ask. he was happy that I came by, I told him its not like he and I weren't chatting via messenger and or texts and calling each other. I worked on his car. this lead to the idea of how the church needs to support the pastor so that he isn't a do all be all. I told him im not perfect but in theology I know more then the average person in his church on things. he said that when I would mention challenging positions of thoughts on controversy. ie the five points, the nephilim and end times.he is top heavy, I am not on the bible. no pastor knows it all, nor any member.

 

[JohnDB]

But, so what are you saying?
Was Jesus wrong?

No...
Of course not...
But due to the politics of these sections it's not clear to anyone by the way it's translated.

And due to tradition.... probably not going to be.

Yes Jesus hated divorce...but he hated abuse more.

What was the Samaritan Woman at the Well all about? She was used to kick off His Samaritan campaign.

If the only reason for divorce was adultery...and women couldn't go to the courts for relief...and it was acceptable for men to have multiple wives....and women caught in adultery were stoned...

There's no logic to your position with what you are claiming Jesus said.
Probably something else is afoot here.

Possibly a scandal of something akin to "wife swapping".

Using and abusing those women suspected of being a "put away wife" perhaps?

Jesus seems to know the hearts of men pretty well...
The legalistic answer is not Jesus' "go to" thing. Otherwise it wouldn't be mentioned.

Think hard about this... Jesus was always kind and gracious to everyone but the hard hearted. And an abused subset of the Jewish community wouldn't be treated harshly by him. Even the Samaritan Woman was dealt with kindly... despite her marital status.

Maybe some more logic is needed here.

 

[PeterJens]

oooh. Almost missed this.
Agreed.
Got any solution?
Jewry was much more serious...as some sects are today.
'night Jason.,

Marriage is just the tip of the iceberg.
Hedonism, sex is just a pleasurable experience, between men or women, straight or gay.
Prostitution is a valid profession, using others to support ones life through services offered.

It is the breakdown of sexual expression is so personal, so wrapped up in who we are, to break this is just like having lunch, not about self harm, and devaluing all of life. But look at what gets sacrificed. Abortion of children who come about by accident. A very attractive person appears, a superficial high is enough to throw over decades of faithful commitment and sharing.

The attack is subtle. How dare you judge someone for any sexually odd desire and them fulfilling it. It is their personal issue, let them work it out.

Our whole society is founded upon bonding between men and women, kept and protected as a safe place to create, and raise children, cared for and supported for at least 20 years. It defines our strongest emotions, our identity, our meaning and focus.

But with long lives, with so many different potential relationships and deceptions, it is easy for people to distort what is good for them, and just let the high they are in reach into betrayal and destruction. And in modern life, it is possible to be totally alone and isolated yet surrounded by thousands of people.

This lack of meaning, by breaking ones word, ones commitments, ones honour and truth, means when the dust settles all are gone.

So many guys would say if they could have an affair and no one would know they would. No wonder unless sexuality, and Gods plan is not preached on, boundaries and values will not be upheld. We live in a sex soaked, anxious and decaying society where sexuality has become the new definition of meaning and intimacy, but only physically not in relationships or honour.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Oh yes.

Judgement seems to abound in this thread.
It is not good.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

Yes, it's challenging. However, if there was more teaching on it in the churches, I think we'd see less divorces among Christians. I'm staggered at the number of Christian spouses who walk out on a marriage or commit adultery.

I was speaking to a person in another country via email. She and her husband used to live in my hometown and are personal friends. Both are long-term Christians. However, he committed adultery on her twice in their marriage. He died recently of dementia.

Oz

I don't know how much the church could help...
we might be beyond that...our society is a mess.

 

[GodsGrace]

most churches that want to follow jesus do some of this. of course more needs to be done. I cant help with the broken boys, not my gift. trust me I tried. I had this converstation with pastor last week as he made a comment about during covid outside of him making contacts few would return the call and ask. he was happy that I came by, I told him its not like he and I weren't chatting via messenger and or texts and calling each other. I worked on his car. this lead to the idea of how the church needs to support the pastor so that he isn't a do all be all. I told him im not perfect but in theology I know more then the average person in his church on things. he said that when I would mention challenging positions of thoughts on controversy. ie the five points, the nephilim and end times.he is top heavy, I am not on the bible. no pastor knows it all, nor any member.

Agreed on all.
I thought of a priest I know...he called many persons, including me.
It made me wonder how many called him.....

 

[OzSpen]

I don't know how much the church could help...
we might be beyond that...our society is a mess.

wondering,

I'm talking about divorce among Christian people in the church. Divorce in the community won't be helped until people are born from above.

The purpose of the God-breathed Scripture is 'useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work' (2 Tim 3:16-17 NIV).

The place for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness on the issue of divorce is the responsibility of the servant of God, most often expressed through the local church.

The church is on earth to be salt in a decaying place, light in a world of darkness. I consider that biblical teaching on divorce could stem the disaster we see in our churches where the divorce rate seems to be a bit lower than in secular culture.

Professor Bradley Wright, a sociologist at the University of Connecticut, explains from his analysis of people who identify as Christians but rarely attend church, that 60 percent of these have been divorced. Of those who attend church regularly, 38 percent have been divorced.Bradley R.E. Wright, Christians Are Hate-Filled Hypocrites … and Other Lies You’ve Been Told, (Minneapolis, MN: Bethany House, 2010), p. 133.​

​

Other data from additional sociologists of family and religion suggest a significant marital stability divide between those who take their faith seriously and those who do not.​

​

W. Bradford Wilcox, a leading sociologist at the University of Virginia and director of the National Marriage Project, finds from his own analysis that “active conservative Protestants” who regularly attend church ... are 35 percent less likely to divorce compared to those who have no affiliation. Nominally attending conservative Protestants are 20 percent more likely to divorce, compared to secular Americans.W. Bradford Wilcox and Elizabeth Williamson, “The Cultural Contradictions of Mainline Family Ideology and Practice,” in American Religions and the Family, edited by Don S. Browning and David A. Clairmont (New York: Columbia University Press, 2007) p. 50.​

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

No...
Of course not...
But due to the politics of these sections it's not clear to anyone by the way it's translated.

And due to tradition.... probably not going to be.

Yes Jesus hated divorce...but he hated abuse more.

In Jesus' time, women that were abused were forced to remain with their husbands for financial reasons. I would think that this is why Jesus wanted man to change his heart more than to change his ways (which cannot really be done without a change of heart).

The problem we have here is that it's not easy to be a disciple of Jesus in today's times.
A woman is abused....she leaves. And she should leave. So we say that God's rules are always the same....but this makes us stop to wonder,,,doesn't it?

If a woman was being abused in Jesus' time...He would have expected the husband to change.
This is why it was taught that the woman should submit to the husband BUT the husband was to love her as his own body. This would work out very well, but it's not easy to find this type of relationship these days.

What was the Samaritan Woman at the Well all about? She was used to kick off His Samaritan campaign.

If the only reason for divorce was adultery...and women couldn't go to the courts for relief...and it was acceptable for men to have multiple wives....and women caught in adultery were stoned...

There's no logic to your position with what you are claiming Jesus said.
Probably something else is afoot here.

Possibly a scandal of something akin to "wife swapping".

It was acceptable for men to have multiple wives?
I can't remember this, but I trust you.

If the only reason for divorce was adultery...and the woman (the one with financial needs) remained faithful...then the man would have been in the wrong for leaving her...and this would have eliminated any other reason. This would have offered protection to the woman...BUT, again, only if Jesus' rules were followed.

Jesus seems to know the hearts of men pretty well...
The legalistic answer is not Jesus' "go to" thing. Otherwise it wouldn't be mentioned.

Not sure what you meant by this...but no matter.

Think hard about this... Jesus was always kind and gracious to everyone but the hard hearted. And an abused subset of the Jewish community wouldn't be treated harshly by him. Even the Samaritan Woman was dealt with kindly... despite her marital status.

Maybe some more logic is needed here.

Like what.
I can't think of anything else.
I don't think Jesus meant "wife-swapping".
He clearly was speaking about divorce.
We may not have His exact words...but we do have what He meant....

 

[GodsGrace]

Marriage is just the tip of the iceberg.
Hedonism, sex is just a pleasurable experience, between men or women, straight or gay.
Prostitution is a valid profession, using others to support ones life through services offered.

It is the breakdown of sexual expression is so personal, so wrapped up in who we are, to break this is just like having lunch, not about self harm, and devaluing all of life. But look at what gets sacrificed. Abortion of children who come about by accident. A very attractive person appears, a superficial high is enough to throw over decades of faithful commitment and sharing.

The attack is subtle. How dare you judge someone for any sexually odd desire and them fulfilling it. It is their personal issue, let them work it out.

Our whole society is founded upon bonding between men and women, kept and protected as a safe place to create, and raise children, cared for and supported for at least 20 years. It defines our strongest emotions, our identity, our meaning and focus.

But with long lives, with so many different potential relationships and deceptions, it is easy for people to distort what is good for them, and just let the high they are in reach into betrayal and destruction. And in modern life, it is possible to be totally alone and isolated yet surrounded by thousands of people.

This lack of meaning, by breaking ones word, ones commitments, ones honour and truth, means when the dust settles all are gone.

So many guys would say if they could have an affair and no one would know they would. No wonder unless sexuality, and Gods plan is not preached on, boundaries and values will not be upheld. We live in a sex soaked, anxious and decaying society where sexuality has become the new definition of meaning and intimacy, but only physically not in relationships or honour.

Wow...I think you've said it all.
Nothing to add.



Can I just say that much of the emotion of men honoring women....
and women respecting men....
has been eradicated from our young society, and its i nhabitants,,,I'd say persons of about 30 and below...due to sex education in school, where everything and anything is discussed in a mixed classroom...and I hear that we now understand that we need to start this education in kindergarten or it will be of no effect.

We've gone mad PJ.
Adults have ruined our young and our future.
Adults that grew up in a liberal, immoral, and anti-authoritarian society that could have only
led to what we see around us today.

 

[GodsGrace]

Judgement seems to abound in this thread.
It is not good.

I don't believe it's judgmental to state what Jesus said.

I said at the outset that I was quoting scripture and not necessarily
what I believe.

I don't believe we should any personal case here...but speak only in general terms.
That is not being judgmental.....

JohnDB believes Jesus was saying more than what is written, or at least that He meant more...even though His words might be lost.

I think that to follow what Jesus requested,,,we'd have to be living in a utopia-type world.
We'd have to be living in the Kingdom of God that Jesus meant to establish here on earth.

If we lived in that Kingdom....husbands would be treating their wives well...wives would be treating their husbands well....I like to say that it takes two to tango. It's not always like that...is it?

So what is a person supposed to do ---- stay alone all their life?
Even love has been tainted by sin.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

I'm talking about divorce among Christian people in the church. Divorce in the community won't be helped until people are born from above.

The purpose of the God-breathed Scripture is 'useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work' (2 Tim 3:16-17 NIV).

The place for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness on the issue of divorce is the responsibility of the servant of God, most often expressed through the local church.

The church is on earth to be salt in a decaying place, light in a world of darkness. I consider that biblical teaching on divorce could stem the disaster we see in our churches where the divorce rate seems to be a bit lower than in secular culture.

Professor Bradley Wright, a sociologist at the University of Connecticut, explains from his analysis of people who identify as Christians but rarely attend church, that 60 percent of these have been divorced. Of those who attend church regularly, 38 percent have been divorced.Bradley R.E. Wright, Christians Are Hate-Filled Hypocrites … and Other Lies You’ve Been Told, (Minneapolis, MN: Bethany House, 2010), p. 133.​

​

Other data from additional sociologists of family and religion suggest a significant marital stability divide between those who take their faith seriously and those who do not.​

​

W. Bradford Wilcox, a leading sociologist at the University of Virginia and director of the National Marriage Project, finds from his own analysis that “active conservative Protestants” who regularly attend church ... are 35 percent less likely to divorce compared to those who have no affiliation. Nominally attending conservative Protestants are 20 percent more likely to divorce, compared to secular Americans.W. Bradford Wilcox and Elizabeth Williamson, “The Cultural Contradictions of Mainline Family Ideology and Practice,” in American Religions and the Family, edited by Don S. Browning and David A. Clairmont (New York: Columbia University Press, 2007) p. 50.​

Oz

Oz,,,,what I meant is that society is affecting the church,,,,
instead of the other way around.

You've stated really well what the difference is between a couple that attends church and really believes and lives their life accordingly....and a couple that just goes to church with no further commitment to their christianity.

And these are the couple that are affected by our society.
If you think of it, even secular persons were not getting divorced as if it was normal back at the end of the 20th century. Now it is commonplace.

I believe my posts no. 351 and 353 also address why a couple going to church would be more likely to stay together. It IS what Jesus taught. But we have to be willing to do this...even if it's difficult at times.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I don't believe it's judgmental to state what Jesus said.

I said at the outset that I was quoting scripture and not necessarily
what I believe.

I don't believe we should any personal case here...but speak only in general terms.
That is not being judgmental.....

JohnDB believes Jesus was saying more than what is written, or at least that He meant more...even though His words might be lost.

I think that to follow what Jesus requested,,,we'd have to be living in a utopia-type world.
We'd have to be living in the Kingdom of God that Jesus meant to establish here on earth.

If we lived in that Kingdom....husbands would be treating their wives well...wives would be treating their husbands well....I like to say that it takes two to tango. It's not always like that...is it?

So what is a person supposed to do ---- stay alone all their life?
Even love has been tainted by sin.

You said my wife and I are living in sin
You misquoted Scripture, made us look bad, and was extremely judgemental

 

[GodsGrace]

You said my wife and I are living in sin
You misquoted Scripture, made us look bad, and was extremely judgemental

I didn't say it.
Jesus said it.

How did I misquote scripture?
Do you know how many persons are divorced and remarried?

How is this being judgmental??
If one of the commandments says to not steal,,,,
and you steal...and I tell you that you just stole...
is that ME saying it? Is that being judgmental?

And stop yelling at me.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I didn't say it.
Jesus said it.

How did I misquote scripture?
Do you know how many persons are divorced and remarried?

How is this being judgmental??
If one of the commandments says to not steal,,,,
and you steal...and I tell you that you just stole...
is that ME saying it? Is that being judgmental?

And stop yelling at me.

Lol, you misquote Scripture and you don't know why.
I think you need a visit with the pope.

 

[jasonc]

I didn't say it.
Jesus said it.

How did I misquote scripture?
Do you know how many persons are divorced and remarried?

How is this being judgmental??
If one of the commandments says to not steal,,,,
and you steal...and I tell you that you just stole...
is that ME saying it? Is that being judgmental?

And stop yelling at me.

My wife and I would fit this .

My,wife first husband died after the divorce by,20 years later ,her second was violent.

Grace covers sins.

Sometimes people rebel,they divorce ,they move on ,they marry another .my,brother admitted he made a mistake and tried to rekindle his first marriage .it didn't happen,his first wife married again ,and then once more.my,brother moved on.later he met a younger girl fell in love they married and both serve the lord in unison.this wasn't so with his first marriage .

 

[daninthelionsden]

My wife and I would fit this .

My,wife first husband died after the divorce by,20 years later ,her second was violent.

Grace covers sins.

Sometimes people rebel,they divorce ,they move on ,they marry another .my,brother admitted he made a mistake and tried to rekindle his first marriage .it didn't happen,his first wife married again ,and then once more.my,brother moved on.later he met a younger girl fell in love they married and both serve the lord in unison.this wasn't so with his first marriage .

His Grace covers a multitude of sins. Amen brother.

 

[OzSpen]

Yes,,,maybe it's the lack of teaching.
Maybe it's our loose and accepting society..everything goes.
When I was in my teens it was devastating for a couple to get divorced...
this was looked down upon. Now it's accepted.

Some couples don't even want to get married...they just live together thinking that this is better than having to get divorced later on .... which means that they already know it's not forever.

1:30 a.m. here.
check out my thread about fulfilling the law in Theology.
Too tired today for that topic..but will get to it tomorrow.
'night.

wondering,

In Australia,

The most recent HILDA survey, published in 2012, found that 51.8 per cent of Australians over 15 were married and 10.4 per cent were living in a de facto relationship.

Australian law allows marriages where both parties are at least 18 years old, or where one party is aged between 16 and 18 if approved by a court.
While the report didn't directly compare the dissolution of marriages and de facto relationships, it did say this about changes in marital status between 2004 and 2009: "The most volatile groups seem to be separated people and those in de facto relationships, https://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-30/de-facto-separation-and-divorce-rates-fact-check/5844998?nw=0

This article states that defacto relationships are more unstable than marriages.

Oz