" I never knew you " --- Literal or Figurative

[Sparkey]

No Jesus said I never knew you. How can you Love someone you say to them, I never knew you ?

Jesus Christ says He knew His Sheep that He died for Jn 10:

14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

So common reason tells us that those who He never knew, could not be of the sheep He knew and layed down His Life for.

Reiteration of your dogma does nothing. You've side-stepped and now refuse to answer. I can only believe this is because you have no answer.

 

[francisdesales]

You have my answer, its not what you want, but its in the form of this question:

How can Christ Love and Die for people He never Knew ?

does the Bible say He didn't?

 

[francisdesales]

You have my answer, its not what you want, but its in the form of this question:

How can Christ Love and Die for people He never Knew ?

Where does the Bible say Jesus only died for the elect?

The verse you cite does not rule out that Jesus died for ALL mankind, just as Adam's sin effected ALL of mankind (re-read Romans 5...)

Regards

 

[smaller]

What scripture says that ? Even though I am neither, but show us the scripture that says one cannot know they are a believer in Christ, for that is what a Sheep is.

You want to blow the determinist trumpet, then blow it accurately.

God ALONE determines who is a sheep OR who is in fact a PHONY TARE.

In every branch of determinism, YOURS included unless you are some rogue blowhard, ALL must persevere to the END of their life and THEN God makes HIS SOLE DETERMINATION.

You therefore CAN NOT simultaneously claim DIVINE SOVEREIGNTY and declare YOUR SELF a sheep, as that determination is NOT IN YOUR HANDS.

I suppose the psalmist David lied when He said we are the sheep of your pasture.

You WANT to be a SHEEP, yet you bleat that other believers who do not cotton to your doctrine ARE NOT sheep.

I do not see that as A SHEEP WORK, but a PARTIALIST working seeking to justify your SELF and keep OTHER SHEEP out.

Nay to such bleatings. Nay. No sheep in his right mind would make such bleatings over THE CALL of The Shephard of our souls.

Peter Lied when He said of believers 1 pet 1:

You can CLAIM your 'sheephood' all you like. You could very well be just another COMMON WOLF in sheep cloth.

According to your human reasoning,

And there you exhibit further self justifications by saying ONLY YOU HEAR, when in fact you hear like ALL of us...

IN PART.

In acknowledging my IN PART hearing, I might say I am much further IN TRUTH on this matter than a claimant to PERFECT HEARING and PERFECT VISION.

You sir, are so far off on so many counts, I could not begin to list them all.

no one can know if they have been redeemed by the blood of Christ.

It is quite easy to KNOW who sheep are if we HEAR His Words.

We KNOW THEM by THEIR FRUIT. You seek to know them by DOCTRINE, which means YOU already prove you DIDN'T HEAR.

Make of that what you will.

And the word is in the Perfect Tense in the greek, denoting a once and for all knowing !

And I will flat out GUARANTEE that ALL MANKIND have EVIL present with them that WILL NOT ENTER Heavens Gates.

You sir are NO exception to this FACT.

Believers have been given [ perfect tense] an Understanding 1 jn 5:

And apparently some believers are just flat out in DENIAL that we ALL see only IN PART. This means that NEITHER of us have PERFECT doctrines as they are ALL only partial sighted.

Yet YOU have sought to CONDEMN others over your doctrinal sets.

In that, I see 'your fruit' clearly. A man who seeks to condemn OTHER people by PARTIAL SIGHT.

That to me would be the DEAD FRUIT of a BLINDMAN.

So I reject your statement as unbiblical, and lacking in the Truth. I am so glad I am not part of your religion.

Your personal condemnation to ETERNAL DAMNATION of other believers has spewed here and other posting boards to any believer who does not BOW TO YOU.

I have no delusions of such MEGALOMANIA masquerading as FAITH.

Sorry. I wouldn't follow you to the grocery store if I were starving.

smaller

 

[savedbygrace57]

smaller:

You want to blow the determinist trumpet, then blow it accurately

.

See Post 77

 

[savedbygrace57]

fran:

Where does the Bible say Jesus only died for the elect?

Where does it say He didnt ?

I am witnessing to what the scripture says, not speculation as you are.

 

[savedbygrace57]

does the Bible say He didn't?

Does it say He did ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

sparrow:

Reiteration of your dogma does nothing.

You mean the Truth.

 

[smaller]

smaller:
See Post 77

sbg57, see post 84, my response to 77.

 

[savedbygrace57]

sbg57, see post 84, my response to 77.

My post #77 settles it for me.

 

[smaller]

My post #77 settles it for me.

May what you measure to others be the meausure used upon you.

s

 

[Sparkey]

Sparrowhawke: "You've side-stepped and now refuse to answer. I can only believe this is because you have no answer."

sparrow: "Reiteration of your dogma does nothing..."
savedbygrace57: "You mean the Truth."

You now presume to speak for me? I said what I meant, thank you.
Perhaps you can garner understanding by considering things from a different angle? Presented then for your examination: Schrödinger's Cat.

whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci341236,00.html#

If interested, you may cut-n-paste the above then preface it with HTTP:// to follow the link.

 

[francisdesales]

fran:



Where does it say He didnt ?

I am witnessing to what the scripture says, not speculation as you are.

You are making the claim that Jesus died ONLY for the elect. The Bible never says that. As a matter of fact, it says otherwise, if you bothered to read Romans 5. The sin of Adam is univeral, and thus, the redemption offered by Jesus is universal, if you follow Paul's logic. Otherwise, you are saying that Adam's sin was more powerful and universal than Christ's saving grace, which only reaches out to a randomly selected few people (who all happen to be Calvinist, apparently...)

In addition, John the Baptist said Jesus was the "Lamb of God, who takes away the sin OF THE WORLD", not just the elect!

Your extra-biblical notion of fate - that man has NO CONTROL of his destiny, no INPUT WHATSOEVER and God decides randomly where to send us after we die - is NOT a Christian notion whatsoever. It is pagan, fate and determinism is part of the reason why Christianity was so successful in the first few centuries. You see, there were lots of people like yourself who thought that our lot in life was already pre-determined. They were called "pagan"...

Thus, you are not witnessing to Scriptures, but merely your own misplaced logic, which you have decided not to defend.

Regards

 

[savedbygrace57]

francis:

You are making the claim that Jesus died ONLY for the elect.

Thats right, can you show a scripture that says that He did not die only for the elect ?

And He sure did not die for them He says I never knew you.

 

[mlqurgw]

You are making the claim that Jesus died ONLY for the elect. The Bible never says that. As a matter of fact, it says otherwise, if you bothered to read Romans 5. The sin of Adam is univeral, and thus, the redemption offered by Jesus is universal, if you follow Paul's logic. Otherwise, you are saying that Adam's sin was more powerful and universal than Christ's saving grace, which only reaches out to a randomly selected few people (who all happen to be Calvinist, apparently...)

In addition, John the Baptist said Jesus was the "Lamb of God, who takes away the sin OF THE WORLD", not just the elect!

Your extra-biblical notion of fate - that man has NO CONTROL of his destiny, no INPUT WHATSOEVER and God decides randomly where to send us after we die - is NOT a Christian notion whatsoever. It is pagan, fate and determinism is part of the reason why Christianity was so successful in the first few centuries. You see, there were lots of people like yourself who thought that our lot in life was already pre-determined. They were called "pagan"...

Thus, you are not witnessing to Scriptures, but merely your own misplaced logic, which you have decided not to defend.

Regards

The whole premise of Paul in Rom. 5 is representation not universality. All those in Adam died and all those in Christ are made alive. All in Adam sinned in him and all in Christ are righteous in Him. Those born of Adam are made sinners by his representaion as the head and those born of God in Christ are made righteous because He is the Second Adam, the Head of His people.

 

[francisdesales]

francis:



Thats right, can you show a scripture that says that He did not die only for the elect ?

I have already, twice. Aren't you reading my posts?

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. John 1:29

THE WORLD!

Now, where is your verses, again???

 

[francisdesales]

The whole premise of Paul in Rom. 5 is representation not universality. All those in Adam died and all those in Christ are made alive. All in Adam sinned in him and all in Christ are righteous in Him. Those born of Adam are made sinners by his representaion as the head and those born of God in Christ are made righteous because He is the Second Adam, the Head of His people.

You are only partially correct.

Christ is the Second Adam because He represents the ENTIRE human race, just as ADAM represents the ENTIRE human race. The comparison falls short otherwise.

Romans 5:15-17 and Paul's logic within does not allow your interpretation. Unless you feel that Jesus' work on the cross was LESS than that sin of Adam that effected all men. Note the words Paul uses:

But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Romans 5:15-17

In three ways, Paul is saying that the work of Christ SUPERCEDES, is more POWERFUL and applied JUST AS UNIVERSALLY, when compared to Adam's work. The point is clear. Just as Adam effected all men, Jesus' work effect all men. Redemption is available to all men - since Christ died as the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin OF THE WORLD".

Christ could not be "the second Adam" if His work was only for the elect, since Adam's sin effected more - and clearly, Paul says Grace is MORE POWERFUL. You have us believe that Christ's work is inferior to Adam's in spectrum.

Regards

 

[Elijah674]

I have already, twice. Aren't you reading my posts?

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. John 1:29

THE WORLD!

Now, where is your verses, again???

Nothing New under The Sun say's the Holy Spirits Inspiration! ! Eccl. 3:15. And what have we here posted up?? Just the same old satan (POSTINGS) quoting 1/2 false Gospel. false 'g'ospel is seen quoted by satan to the Word Himself, & when it is without the Eternal CONDITION as in Matt. 4:6. 'It is wriiten satan stated! ...that is taken from Psalms 91:11. (see verse 6 of Matt.)

And Christ's reply to satan was from Deut. 6:16 O.T.'s 'Eternal'Condition!

And Forum: You best understand what you are doing by reading some [postings]??
Christ's reply was about TEMPTING.


--Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

Here is a just about the whole chapter! You read it if you want?? Then ask yourself what your conclusion is? Do you [THINK] that the Godhead has suffered & died for satan & his Eternally lost ones who They forknew would be eternally lost??
But personally for me, whatever you decide is your decision, but using Scripture the false 1/2 Gospel way of satan is to be challenged!

--Elijah

Lev.16
[1] And the LORD spake unto Moses after the death of the two sons of Aaron, when they offered before the LORD, and died;
[2] And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the vail before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat.

[3] Thus shall Aaron come into the holy place: with a young bullock for a sin offering, and a ram for a burnt offering.
[4] He shall put on the holy linen coat, and he shall have the linen breeches upon his flesh, and shall be girded with a linen girdle, and with the linen mitre shall he be attired: these are holy garments; therefore shall he wash his flesh in water, and so put them on.
[5] And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering.
[6] And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house.

[7] And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

[8] And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats;one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.

[9] And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD's lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.

[10] But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness. (see Rev. 20:1-3)

[11] And Aaron shall bring the bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and shall make an atonement for himself, and for his house, and shall kill the bullock of the sin offering which is for himself:
[12] And he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the LORD, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the vail:
[13] And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the LORD, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not:

[14] And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times.
('i' personally believe that this is the last seven times of earth probation)

[15] Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:

(see Rev. 11:18-19 for this last time finished work of Christ in the 'temple of God' and where is His Ark, of His, Covenant?!)

[16] And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.
[17] And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.

[18] And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the LORD, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about.
[19] And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.

(OK: Pay attention! All sin of the Lords People are seen above.)

[20] And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:

[21] And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

(again remember earth before creation, and Jer. 4:23-27 along with the Rev. 20:1-3 documentation in between the 1000 years)

[22] And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

[23] And Aaron shall come into the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall put off the linen garments, which he put on when he went into the holy place, and shall leave them there:
[24] And he shall wash his flesh with water in the holy place, and put on his garments, and come forth, and offer his burnt offering, and the burnt offering of the people, and make an atonement for himself, and for the people.
[25] And the fat of the sin offering shall he burn upon the altar.

[26] And he that let go the goat for the scapegoat shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward come into the camp.

You be the one 'LED' of Rom. 8:14?? But [ALL] would make a super wise Decision to get into the Lords WAY of Psalms 77:13 'IF' they want not to be among Hosea 4:6 REJECTED Bunch!

 

[Jude]

You all sound like a bunch of Pharisees & Sadducees talking to the money changers about who is right and who is wrong..