If God Loved everyone !

[RND]

A sheep is always a sheep, and a goat is always a goat..

And a man is always a man...never a new creation. :help

Wow, you really believe that. How sad.

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

[savedbygrace57]

A sheep is always a sheep, and a goat is always a goat..

And a man is always a man...never a new creation. :help

Wow, you really believe that. How sad.

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

A sheep is always a sheep, before conversion, they are still a sheep..

 

[RND]

A sheep is always a sheep, before conversion, they are still a sheep..

So sheep rob banks, kill, and steal? I thought the enemies of God (goats) did these things, not sheep.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Sheep don't have carnal hearts. Goats do. When a carnal heart is changed and converted they become a sheep and hear Jesus who has called them.

Sheep hear His voice, goats don't. So when a goat begins to hear Jesus and listen to Jesus then that goat begins to change. I'm so sorry that the doctrine you choose to believe is such opposition to the true word of God. I'll pray for you.

 

[glorydaz]

A sheep is always a sheep, and a goat is always a goat..

And a man is always a man...never a new creation. :help

Wow, you really believe that. How sad.

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

No, of course not. I was being facetious.
That's why I put the "help" up there. :yes

 

[RND]

No, of course not. I was being facetious.
That's why I put the "help" us there. :yes

My bad, I misunderstood. I thought I was quoting savedbygrace57 and not you. Carry on.

 

[glorydaz]

A sheep is always a sheep, before conversion, they are still a sheep..

So sheep rob banks, kill, and steal? I thought the enemies of God (goats) did these things, not sheep.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Sheep don't have carnal hearts. Goats do. When a carnal heart is changed and converted they become a sheep and hear Jesus who has called them.

Sheep hear His voice, goats don't. So when a goat begins to hear Jesus and listen to Jesus then that goat begins to change. I'm so sorry that the doctrine you choose to believe is such opposition to the true word of God. I'll pray for you.

Using goats and sheep to claim God only loves some, and only died for some, and only calls some to repent, is a ploy to support a false doctrine. We have the whole of scripture on our side. Goats were used equally as sacrificial animals all thoughout the Bible. It was the one analogy to goats in Matt. and it was speaking of the end time judgment. "As a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. Now we see a doctrine being built around a parable that was meant only for the time of judgment...after the people are already dead and standing before their maker.

For anyone to turn this into a doctrine of the elect is a strawman argument. Until a person dies, he has a chance to repent and be saved. They are not even declared goats until the judgment. Never, in the Word, are people referred to as goats until the judgment.

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

 

[RND]

A sheep is always a sheep, before conversion, they are still a sheep..

So sheep rob banks, kill, and steal? I thought the enemies of God (goats) did these things, not sheep.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Sheep don't have carnal hearts. Goats do. When a carnal heart is changed and converted they become a sheep and hear Jesus who has called them.

Sheep hear His voice, goats don't. So when a goat begins to hear Jesus and listen to Jesus then that goat begins to change. I'm so sorry that the doctrine you choose to believe is such opposition to the true word of God. I'll pray for you.

Using goats and sheep to claim God only loves some, and only died for some, and only calls some to repent, is a ploy to support a false doctrine. We have the whole of scripture on our side. Goats were used equally as sacrificial animals all thoughout the Bible. It was the one analogy to goats in Matt. and it was speaking of the end time judgment. "As a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. Now we see a doctrine being built around a parable that was meant only for the time of judgment...after the people are already dead and standing before their maker.

For anyone to turn this into a doctrine of the elect is a strawman argument. Until a person dies, he has a chance to repent and be saved. They are not even declared goats until the judgment. Never, in the Word, are people referred to as goats until the judgment.

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

glorydaz I believe we have done a fairly decent job in exposing savedbygrace57's OSAS false doctrine of the elect/non-elect. This is an extremely dangerous doctrine that makes false claims that Satan loves to teach.

 

[glorydaz]

glorydaz I believe we have done a fairly decent job in exposing savedbygrace57's OSAS false doctrine of the elect/non-elect. This is an extremely dangerous doctrine that makes false claims that Satan loves to teach.

I'll agree on the elect/non-elect doctrine. It is very dangerous and discouraging for anyone not yet saved.

However, I'd encourage you to come to the thread on Salvation, and hash it out with us over eternal security. Jesus will never lose any the Father has given him. What I'm seeing is people believing some are saved, and fall away, when they were never saved to begin with. Come on over...we're having a great time. :yes

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory:

I'll agree on the elect/non-elect doctrine. It is very dangerous and discouraging for anyone not yet saved.

No its not, besides, a person is saved before they hear the gospel, the death of christ did that, but the gospel informs them who are saved by christ death, of their salvation and they believe the Truth because they have been spiritually capacitated to..

eph 1:

12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The saved are given to hear the gospel of their salvation..it was theirs before they heard about it and trusted..

 

[savedbygrace57]

rnd says:

Sheep don't have carnal hearts. Goats do

scripture please that says this..

 

[Orion]

savedbygrace. . . . two questions:

1.) Why did your god make me a goat, . . .that I would be destroyed for his pleasure?

2.) I understand that you believe that you are "a sheep". How do you REALLY know this? It is just a feeling you have? Is it because you act as you should? Are your feelings [of being a sheep] very strong inside you? Are you absolutely sure of your "sheep status"? How?

 

[RND]

rnd says:

Sheep don't have carnal hearts. Goats do

scripture please that says this..

It's implied. Why would you even ask for scripture? Surely you don't believe goats have renewed hearts and minds do you? What would be the purpose of returning to separate sheep and goats? Do goat hear Jesus?

 

[RND]

The saved are given to hear the gospel of their salvation..it was theirs before they heard about it and trusted..

Who preached the Gospel to the thief on the cross?

 

[mondar]

savedbygrace. . . . two questions:

1.) Why did your god make me a goat, . . .that I would be destroyed for his pleasure?

2.) I understand that you believe that you are "a sheep". How do you REALLY know this? It is just a feeling you have? Is it because you act as you should? Are your feelings [of being a sheep] very strong inside you? Are you absolutely sure of your "sheep status"? How?

Orion, you dont know the story yet?

1- God made Adam and Adam was good. Adam chose to rebel we all became goats. Because we are Adam's progeny, we fell with Adam. We are rebels with Adam. We deserve all we get.
2- Because I have faith. It is impossible to have faith unless you are regenerate.

 

[Orion]

savedbygrace. . . . two questions:

1.) Why did your god make me a goat, . . .that I would be destroyed for his pleasure?

2.) I understand that you believe that you are "a sheep". How do you REALLY know this? It is just a feeling you have? Is it because you act as you should? Are your feelings [of being a sheep] very strong inside you? Are you absolutely sure of your "sheep status"? How?

Orion, you dont know the story yet?

1- God made Adam and Adam was good. Adam chose to rebel we all became goats. Because we are Adam's progeny, we fell with Adam. We are rebels with Adam. We deserve all we get.
2- Because I have faith. It is impossible to have faith unless you are regenerate.

I am wanting savedbygrace to answer this.

As for your answers,

1. It is completely unethical to hold offspring accountable for the sins of the parent. Regardless, I don't hold to the belief that "we all came from Adam".

2. I have a feeling that savedbygrace is a strict 5 point calvanist, so that would mean that some would have been born for destruction. No one knows who, and regardless of "faith", one made for destruction would still be destroyed, no matter how devout of a life they lived. That's the flaw of such doctrine. Many religions have ample faith in their ways.

 

[RND]

As for your answers,

1. It is completely unethical to hold offspring accountable for the sins of the parent. Regardless, I don't hold to the belief that "we all came from Adam".

That is so true quite frankly. That's why every individual is held responsible for their own actions.

2. I have a feeling that savedbygrace is a strict 5 point calvanist, so that would mean that some would have been born for destruction. No one knows who, and regardless of "faith", one made for destruction would still be destroyed, no matter how devout of a life they lived. That's the flaw of such doctrine. Many religions have ample faith in their ways.

I think you're absolutely right in this assessment.

 

[Orion]

:o RND, . . . . did we agree on something, finally? :D

 

[RND]

:o RND, . . . . did we agree on something, finally? :D

Sure looks like it. Frankly I'm surprised how you haven't seen how I have defended you in a way from savedbygrace57's ridiculous claims and attacks.

BTW, here's a great read for you.....

 

[mondar]

I am wanting savedbygrace to answer this.

In #2 you say "I have a feeling that savedbygrace is a strict 5 point calvanist." Orion, I have noticed you bating Calvinists often. You do realize I am a 5 point Calvinist? Now you can have 2 for the price of 1... ; )

On the other hand, if you want a 1v1 debate, there is a place for that.

1. It is completely unethical to hold offspring accountable for the sins of the parent. Regardless, I don't hold to the belief that "we all came from Adam".

How about if God hold the children accountable for their own sins and rebellion?

Also, I am certainly guessing you don't believe in the creation accounts of scripture. Your world view demands you deny scripture.


2. I have a feeling that savedbygrace is a strict 5 point calvanist, so that would mean that some would have been born for destruction. No one knows who, and regardless of "faith", one made for destruction would still be destroyed, no matter how devout of a life they lived. That's the flaw of such doctrine. Many religions have ample faith in their ways.[/quote]
Yes, some are made for destruction and some for glory. As far as some who live a devout life, that misses the point completely. This is where your understanding differs so greatly from Christianity. You see man very different from Christianity. Man is evil. We do not just do bad things, we are bad. We are defiant rebels. We deserve nothing more then Gods wrath... all of us. So then God is completely just in judging all whom he pleases. Only if you see man as good, or at least neutral can you say that the idea of mans judgment is flawed.

There is great motive for you to deny the fall of man into evil by nature. There is a way in which that justifies your accusations. Do defiant rebels deserve a chance?

Neither is God obligated to save anyone, or offer a chance to everyone for salvation. If we picture 10 rapist/murders on death row, and the Governor chooses to pardon 2 of the 10, does this mean that he was unfair to the other 8? No, he extended grace and mercy to 2, but he is not guilty in judging the other 8. They got what they deserved.

 

[RND]

Neither is God obligated to save anyone, or offer a chance to everyone for salvation.

But that's exactly what God did through the blood of Christ.

2 Cor 5:18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

God reconciled the world back to Himself through Jesus Christ. To fail to understand that and share that with wonderful news with others, and hope for that for others is truly sad. :verysad