If God Loved everyone !

[mfj]

"O"man You have a whole lot of good questions and a good philosophical mind.
God has created a great work in you. Don't ever stop asking, chalenging,
searching. You have asked questions that millions of people have asked for
thousands of years. Many great minds have traveled that road and have become
doctors, lawyers, fathers and etc of the church like Saint Agustin. These
theologins the Father gave great gifts to, like the ones you display. The
church has been in the business of answering and teaching the truth for as
long as folks have needed, God has given prophets, priests, and teachers.
And as good as your questions are, there is no short explaination. Mostly
because a simple question can go off on many tangents, in many directions.
The first thing I should say is you're not giving God enough credit.You
will find that there is no guile in the Lord. But you have to know some
things about Him, like his nature. Nothing about him can change, love,
kindness, mercy, and etc.. His purity is the thing you are questioning. Let
me expound. First know that explainations we use are very limited and have
theological holes in them. We try to explain the unexplainable. That said,
we can know some things. This we know. Nothing unholy can exist in His
presence. If you have pure water and introduce chorine. It's no longer water.
Again God cannot change so a creature with impure thoughts could not survive
in His "presence" (a word with holes). Now God could forget about creating
humans and angels because He knows some will not choose to live a life of
love but would rather live for themselves. But because some do chose love,
(and let me add in here that He would have created all this if just one
would choose to love). Thank Goodness, He created. In the case of angels
we're told He did pretty good 70%. Humans not so much! In His mercy He kept
from destroying those who chose self over universal oneness. They survive
in His mercy a "place" apart from Him. Remember the purity. Those who live
in the kingdom live because of the forgiveness given for things we admit
we don't like that we did (agreeing with Him). A creation such as a human
and angel would be nothing more than a machine if it could not think for
itself, have free will. As for your question about creating something to
beat for all it's life; or beat some one elses children for all their life,
again we have human words and understanding. Think about living in a place
where nobody cared about anyone else only themselves for eternity. LIke
the "U.S.", just joking. Now compare that to living with some one who
could create all this (puppies, the ocean) that is torture. (I'm making
conservatives mad with that one). And yet, it is mercy.
As far as whose father is your father, you get to chose that's good.
"From the beginning" God knows who you will choose. Just another one of
His characteristics. So, from the beginning He knew Lucifer's heart that
doesn't mean He created him to torture him. From what we know he had many
gifts but still chose to not love the whole. You really have to get a grip
on free will.
I'm just a wanna be christian, but these things I've questioned.

 

[francisdesales]

It would be so refreshing if we could read the Word as it's written, and believe what it says.

Yes, you should preach it as it is written, not making up your own salvation.

.

I'm not the one making up my own salvation.
I know Jesus saved me without any effort on my part.
My salvation is a free gift.

So why isn't everyone else saved, then???

If you made no effort, no response to God's graces, then why isn't God saving everyone - doesn't the Scriptures say God desires ALL men to be saved? EVERONE???

It doesn't sound like the Scritpures condone such a thought. Look at Romans 1. They made no effort to be saved, did nothing righteous, but were subject to the wrath of God. Turn to Romans 2. See what happens when people turn to God and seek Him out, a HUMAN RESPONSE? They are declared rigtheous, due to the power of the Spirit working AND man's response to that Spirit...

Oh, yes, God awaits our response, we DO do something... You are again wrong.

Otherwise, God would save everyone without waiting for any response from us (if we did nothing...)

 

[Rick W]

Easy Joe. I'm really trying here ok?
check you PMs.

 

[francisdesales]

Easy Joe. I'm really trying here ok?
check you PMs.

I know you are trying, Rick, and I would like to hear your answer.

I didn't get a PM on this subject,

Thanks

 

[glorydaz]

I'm not the one making up my own salvation.
I know Jesus saved me without any effort on my part.
My salvation is a free gift.

So why isn't everyone else saved, then???

If you made no effort, no response to God's graces, then why isn't God saving everyone - doesn't the Scriptures say God desires ALL men to be saved? EVERONE???

It doesn't sound like the Scritpures condone such a thought. Look at Romans 1. They made no effort to be saved, did nothing righteous, but were subject to the wrath of God. Turn to Romans 2. See what happens when people turn to God and seek Him out, a HUMAN RESPONSE? They are declared rigtheous, due to the power of the Spirit working AND man's response to that Spirit...

Oh, yes, God awaits our response, we DO do something... You are again wrong.

Otherwise, God would save everyone without waiting for any response from us (if we did nothing...)

No one has claimed we don't make a response to His offer.

Accepting a gift does not mean we can take credit for the gift in any way.

It's our duty to obey God's call to repent.

 

[savedbygrace57]

franc:

doesn't the Scriptures say God desires ALL men to be saved? EVERONE???

All elect men..

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory:

It's our duty to obey God's call to repent.

men are not saved by duty, but by the blood of Jesus christ..your promoting a works salvation..

 

[mutzrein]

No one has claimed we don't make a response to His offer.

Accepting a gift does not mean we can take credit for the gift in any way.

It's our duty to obey God's call to repent.

Not yet - but I would.

 

[francisdesales]

franc:

doesn't the Scriptures say God desires ALL men to be saved? EVERONE???

All elect men..

Where does the Bible add "elect men"?

My Bible says all men. Grace rains down on all men, man knows enough to realize their is a God - and so man is without excuse.

The "elect men" is an addition that is not warranted.

Thanks

 

[francisdesales]

No one has claimed we don't make a response to His offer.

You claim that this response has no value towards salvation. Thus, the response is pointless, regarding salvation.

This is not Scriptural.

Accepting a gift does not mean we can take credit for the gift in any way.

Who said anything about taking credit???

You state that God does everything, apparently, in some pious effort to guard God's Sovereignty. However, Scriptures note over and over that God expects man to respond to the gifts God gives us. Who says these gifts to us are earned???

This is an unnecessary concern here.

 

[savedbygrace57]

frans:

Where does the Bible add "elect men"?

Where does it say its not elect men ? For paul is consumed with the salvation of the elect in these epistles 2 tim 2:

10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

 

[francisdesales]

frans:


Where does it say its not elect men ?

Adding words to scriptures need to have a good basis. I understand that such things can clarify what the author intended. However, one shouldn't just add or subtract just on a whim - or based upon a theology already conceived.

God desires all men to be saved - why wouldn't this include ALL men? Christ DIED for all men, including those in sin (all men, not just the elect), God's grace rains down upon all men, good and evil, so explain why you add "elect", then?

The Scriptures do not support this addition.

For paul is consumed with the salvation of the elect in these epistles 2 tim 2:

10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

This merely says that Paul is working for men who are turning to God, that they MAY obtain [eternal] salvation. This passage does not support your contention that God desires ONLY the elect to be saved. Does God DESIRE the death of the wicked? No, according to the Scriptures...

But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: [and] not that he should return from his ways, and live? Ez 18: 21-23.

From this, I see that God desires that ALL men turn to Him, that ALL men seek Him out. He has offered salvation to EVERY man, not just Jews, but to Gentiles, to sinners. The term "elect" are for those who respond to God. But God desires all men to be of the elect. Unforunately, men does not desire this...

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened... And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. Romans 1:18-21; 28-32

clearly, God desires that we ALL respond to Him, but He also desires us to have free will and He respects it. To those who decide to follow their own ways, God allows to wallow in their sin.

Regards

 

[savedbygrace57]

fran says:

Adding words to scriptures need to have a good basis

The basis is other scripture..2 tim 2:

10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

 

[glorydaz]

frans:


Where does it say its not elect men ?

Adding words to scriptures need to have a good basis. I understand that such things can clarify what the author intended. However, one shouldn't just add or subtract just on a whim - or based upon a theology already conceived.

God desires all men to be saved - why wouldn't this include ALL men? Christ DIED for all men, including those in sin (all men, not just the elect), God's grace rains down upon all men, good and evil, so explain why you add "elect", then?

The Scriptures do not support this addition.

For paul is consumed with the salvation of the elect in these epistles 2 tim 2:

10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

This merely says that Paul is working for men who are turning to God, that they MAY obtain [eternal] salvation. This passage does not support your contention that God desires ONLY the elect to be saved. Does God DESIRE the death of the wicked? No, according to the Scriptures...

But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: [and] not that he should return from his ways, and live? Ez 18: 21-23.

From this, I see that God desires that ALL men turn to Him, that ALL men seek Him out. He has offered salvation to EVERY man, not just Jews, but to Gentiles, to sinners. The term "elect" are for those who respond to God. But God desires all men to be of the elect. Unforunately, men does not desire this...

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened... And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. Romans 1:18-21; 28-32

clearly, God desires that we ALL respond to Him, but He also desires us to have free will and He respects it. To those who decide to follow their own ways, God allows to wallow in their sin.

Regards

Whosever will...

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[Drew]

fran says:

Adding words to scriptures need to have a good basis

The basis is other scripture..2 tim 2:

10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

The ultimate problem here is reading statements that are inherently ambiguous as if they were not. And the above from 2 Tim 10 is a prime example. As much as those with a more "fundamendalist" inclination may object, single statements in the Bible almost always require disambiguation by other texts.

Consider the concept of "the elect" here. I suspect that sbg57 sees this as an allusion to those who, from the foundation of time, have been pre-destined to salvation. Fair enough - the 2 Tim 2 text might "work" on such a reading (although one wonders why Paul needs to endure if, in fact, the ultimate salvation of the elect is guaranteed - it sounds very much to me that Paul is implying that if he does not endure, some of the "elect" mighyt miss out on ultimate salvation).

In any event, what if the concept of "the elect" denotes those who have freely accepted a gift of grace and are being shaped into the image of Jesus as their lives unfold. Would you object that this robs the word "elect" of its clear implications of choice on the part of God? Well, I would respond that God that one can see my proposed version of "the elect" as reflecting a lot of choice on the part of God. For example: God chooses to make Abraham's true family a family consituted by both Jew and Gentile. And God chooses the make faith the marker of membership in that family. And we can see God as choosing to conform these people to the image of the Son.

Bottom line: We can honour the sense of God's choice that is undoubtedly present in the concept of an "elect" without having to the see the elect as a set of people pre-destined to ultimate salvation from the beginning of time.

 

[savedbygrace57]

drew says:

The ultimate problem here is reading statements that are inherently ambiguous

Nothing ambigous about 2 tim 2:

10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Who are they in the verse ?

 

[glorydaz]

Consider the concept of "the elect" here. I suspect that sbg57 sees this as an allusion to those who, from the foundation of time, have been pre-destined to salvation. Fair enough - the 2 Tim 2 text might "work" on such a reading (although one wonders why Paul needs to endure if, in fact, the ultimate salvation of the elect is guaranteed - it sounds very much to me that Paul is implying that if he does not endure, some of the "elect" mighyt miss out on ultimate salvation).

In any event, what if the concept of "the elect" denotes those who have freely accepted a gift of grace and are being shaped into the image of Jesus as their lives unfold. Would you object that this robs the word "elect" of its clear implications of choice on the part of God? Well, I would respond that God that one can see my proposed version of "the elect" as reflecting a lot of choice on the part of God. For example: God chooses to make Abraham's true family a family consituted by both Jew and Gentile. And God chooses the make faith the marker of membership in that family. And we can see God as choosing to conform these people to the image of the Son.

Bottom line: We can honour the sense of God's choice that is undoubtedly present in the concept of an "elect" without having to the see the elect as a set of people pre-destined to ultimate salvation from the beginning of time.

You make an excellent point, Drew.

 

[francisdesales]

fran says:

Adding words to scriptures need to have a good basis

The basis is other scripture..2 tim 2:

10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Thanks for repeating this, and I will repeat my refutation...

Paul is merely saying he is working for the elect. It doesn't say anything about GOD'S desire to save all men...

Thus, as I said before, the addition is unwarranted.

 

[francisdesales]

Whosever[/u] will...
[quote="John 3:16]For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If your point is to agree with me, that God offers salvation to ALL men by underlining "whosoever", then it is good we agree on something...

 

[glorydaz]

Whosever[/u] will...
[quote="John 3:16]For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If your point is to agree with me, that God offers salvation to ALL men by underlining "whosoever", then it is good we agree on something...

Hey, I'm not one who has ever said God's offer was not given to all men.
He died for the sins of whole world.
All men means ALL, not just a select few.
Of course, that doesn't mean all will accept.