If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

[JLB]

Unless someone can show from Scripture that Paul wasn't including eternal life when he wrote Rom 11:29 AND Eph 1:13,14, 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 do not teach eternal security, will I accept your position.

I've done it many times.

You just refuse to admit that eternal life does not appear in Romans 11:29.

You also refine what an unbeliever is so that you twist unbelieving into believing.

Those who believe for a while, then turn away from Christ and no longer believe, have become unbelievers.

The unbelieving will have their part in the lake of fire.

But the cowardly, unbelieving,abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
Revelation 21:8


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Once you are born again on EARTH, the result is, that you are going to Heaven forever.

Which is rarely understood for it's true significance--that you are going to a heaven that will last forever and which you can not be cast out from.

"12‘He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore" (Revelation 3:12 NASB)

Unlike the earthly temple and kingdom from which the Isrealites--both the righteous and the unrighteous--have been cast out of twice now. This is one of those things that the church really lacks insight about as a result of being cut off from everything 'OT' by the early church fathers. All we're capable of seeing in the reality of the eternal kingdom that lasts forever and which we can not be be cast out of is the distorted doctrine of OSAS.

 

[FreeGrace]

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

Eternal, nor life, nor salvation are found in this verse.

You know well that this is no defense for your own views. Paul had previously defined both justification and eternal life as gifts of God: 3:24,5:151,6,17 and 6:23. So he didn't have to repeat himself in 11:29.

And no one has yet shown that Paul meant anything else in 11:29. He defined what he meant. We don't get to guess what he might have meant.

But, beyond that, Paul clearly taught eternal security in these verses:
Eph 1:13,14 - 13InHim, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Eph 4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Cor 1:22 - who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

2 Cor 5:5 - Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

So, what has Paul taught here?

First, having believed, we are SEALED IN HIM (union with Christ) with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE, given as a PLEDGE FOR the day of redemption of God's own possession. This seal is a PLEDGE from God.

And consider this verse:
Heb 6:18 - so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us.

So, for one to accept your view of loss of salvation, 2 things are required:
1. Either prove by exegesis that Eph 1:13,14 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 do NOT teach eternal security, or
2. Accept that God DOES break His promises and pledges, which makes Him a liar. Even though Scripture SAYS that it is impossible for God to lie.

 

[FreeGrace]

A temporary believer is a person who believes for a while, then no longer believes, which any rational person realizes that if a person is not a believer, then he is an un believer.


Believe = saved

Believe for a while = saved for a while.

if a person no longer believes, they have become an unbeliever.

Until you produce a scripture, that says unbelievers are saved, the OSAS has become as chaff on the summer threshing floor.


JLB

See post #263 and respond, please.

 

[FreeGrace]

No faith = No salvation


Unless you can produce a scripture that shows there is some other way to be saved without faith in Jesus Christ, then your doctrine in null and void.JLB

Actually, unless you can produce any Scripture that shows that one must have continuing faith to stay saved, then your doctirne is null and void.

Oh, and btw, please don't bother with Matt 24:13 or Mark 13:13, since the context is specifically the Tribulation period and the context makes clear that "salvation" here is deliverance from the Tribulation, not soul salvation.

Oh, and don't forget to respond to #263.

 

[FreeGrace]

No faith = No salvation


Unless you can produce a scripture that shows there is some other way to be saved without faith in Jesus Christ, then your doctrine in null and void.JLB

Actually, unless you can produce any Scripture that shows that one must have continuing faith to stay saved, then your doctirne is null and void.

Oh, and btw, please don't bother with Matt 24:13 or Mark 13:13, since the context is specifically the Tribulation period and the context makes clear that "salvation" here is deliverance from the Tribulation, not soul salvation.

Oh, and don't forget to respond to #263.

 

[FreeGrace]

You would have to write out your scripture for examination, because those references don't say that.JLB

I did. Post 263

 

[FreeGrace]

I've done it many times.

Please cite the posts where you exegetes Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 about the sealing with the Holy Spirit and how those verses don't teach eternal security.

You just refuse to admit that eternal life does not appear in Romans 11:29.

I've already explained WHY it doesn't have to. Paul already defined eternal life as a gift of God in 6:23. And no one has shown that Paul meant anything else in 11:29 because he didn't define anything else as a gift of God.

 

[JLB]

Its a work to a person who does not understand that the Blood has already been applied.
So, this person keeps trying to work to keep believing, work to keep believing, work to keep believing.....

For me personally, it would be work to not believe, it would be work for me to turn away from Christ and go and serve Budda, or Allah.

Although Jesus said, this is the work of God, that you believe, it seems that the older I get the stronger my dependence is on Him, and the more I rely on His strength.

If I were to go by just the experiences in my life with the Lord, I may be inclined to be in the OSAS camp, because He has saved me and given me grace to come out of a backslidden lifestyle more than once.

Ive learned that I have to make a choice, not to put myself in the wrong place, with the wrong people, who are doing the wrong things.

It's a choice.

Paul says it this way -

Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:11

This is a conscience choice a person has to make, to obey what the Holy Spirit is saying to us through Paul.

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.

This is a conscience choice a person has to make, to obey what the Holy Spirit is saying to us through Paul.

And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members asinstruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:13

This is a conscience choice a person has to make, to obey what the Holy Spirit is saying to us through Paul.

Once you begin to obey what the Holy Spirit has said to others through Paul, and begin to apply these admonitions to your own life, you will find that He will speak to you more and more, began to lead you and guide you in every part of your life.

This is the work of believing.

This is the work of being faithful with what is another man's, and having the Lord give you what is your own.

This is the work of being committed.

This is the work of obedience.

The result -

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?


17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.

These doctrines have to be obeyed, from the heart....

We choose to be a slave of sin, or a slave of righteous.

Both require work.

This is the work of God, that you believe.


JLB

 

[Kidron]

Those who keep his commandments will remain in his love John 15:10

.

So, you are actually saying, or rather trying to prove that God stops loving His Children if they dont keep his commandments?
Well, if that is the case, God's love is a cheap and useless thing indeed.
But the good news is, you are wrong., and God's Love is eternal, its everlasting.
The Proof.?
Is that God as Jesus, gave himself not for a world of "commandment keepers", but instead for filthy sinners, whom he LOVED.
"For God so LOVED that he gave".....and he didnt need them to abide in Him, as God loves because HE IS LOVE and this is not ever changed based on someone's behavior.
1 John 4:8

 

[JLB]

I did. Post 263

You know well that this is no defense for your own views. Paul had previously defined both justification and eternal life as gifts of God: 3:24,5:151,6,17 and 6:23. So he didn't have to repeat himself in 11:29.

Not one of these scripture references has been written out for discussion.

Oh, and btw, please don't bother with Matt 24:13 or Mark 13:13, since the context is specifically the Tribulation period and the context makes clear that "salvation" here is deliverance from the Tribulation, not soul salvation.

If during the tribulation, a Christian who confesses Jesus as Lord, turns from Him, to serve and worship the Antichrist by taking his mark on the forehead or right hand, then they will lose their salvation and thier soul to the everlasting lake of fire.

“If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 14:9-12


JLB

 

[Kidron]

All we're capable of seeing in the reality of the eternal kingdom that lasts forever and which we can not be be cast out of is the distorted doctrine of OSAS.

"eternal life", is that we are in the "Body of Christ", eternally, and this is sealed by the Holy Spirit, and cant be undone by behavior.
We are no longer our own, but have been purchased with the blood of Christ, and this "spiritual adoption", cant be undone by our behavior.
See, at the end of the day, all the people who try to talk others out of their eternal security, do this because they have concluded that a person has to keep their salvation, by enduring to the end, or maintaining faith, ......and the bottom line is that all of this is an effort to keep oneself saved by works, instead of trusting God to do it for them.
Their discipleship has become twisted so that their faith is no longer faith but it is become self righteousness.
That is to say, they are trying to keep self right with God by effort, and effort is works, and works cant save or keep someone saved.

Paul says this.. in Titus 3:9

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

Pauls says that works are profitable, but he does not say you are going to lose your salvation if you dont..

 

[Kidron]

For me personally, it would be work to not believe, it would be work for me to turn away from Christ and go and serve Budda, or Allah.

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
JLB

Well, the truth is, if you truly understood that what you do AFTER you are saved, has no bearing on your position "in Christ", then you would realize that you cant undo what the Cross, once applied, has eternally completed for you.
And this is why you keep trying to change the gift of Righteousness into a "works to be saved" theology.
Do you actually understand why you dont believe that Jesus has ALREADY saved you, if you are saved, and that you dont have to save yourself?

And the verse you quoted is not talking about salvation that is EARNED by obedience".
As salvation is not the work of obedience , but its the justification that is earned by Jesus on a Cross and then applied to you for free.
Its God accepting your Faith and in return He credits you with HIS Righteousness.
And once you realize that you have the very righteousness of God as the "gift of righteousness", you will see why there is no need for you to keep trying to saved yourself by works.
Ask yourself...."can my works equal God's righteousness"?.....and then you'll see your error, in trying to work to keep yourself saved, and your error in trying to use Christian forums to talk people out of the Cross and into a "works for salvation" theology that cant provide RIGHTEOUSNESS or PARDON SIN.
So, every verse you quote to try to get rid of the Cross, and exchange it for some type of works, only reflects your belief in works to be saved and to stay saved.
Wrong answer, JLB

Titus 3:
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

[JLB]

"eternal life", is that we are in the "Body of Christ", eternally,

This is a man made definition, and is not found in the scriptures.

This is eternal life, that you know God and Jesus Christ whom He sent. John 17:3

Eternal Life is relationship with Jesus Christ, which is likened to the relationship of a branch connected to a Vine.

For us to have access to eternal life, we must be reconciled to God through Jesus Christ, and partake of Him by being connected to Jesus Christ.

yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight, if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard...
Colossians 1:22-23

and again -

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called“Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


Those that depart from Him, depart from the eternal life that He provides, just as the Vine provides life to the branches.

If the branch becomes disconnected from the Vine, then it becomes disconnected from the source of life the Vine provides.

As long as we remain connected to Jesus Christ by faith, we remain connected to the eternal life that flows from Him, just like the life within the Vine flows to and gives life to the branch.


JLB

 

[Kidron]

T
14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14
JLB

Here is how you know you are misunderstanding the verse, JLB

We dont become partakers of Christ at the end of steadfastness, we have already become partakers of Christ when we are born again.
This is why we are "seated in heavenly places" right NOW.....this is why we are "IN CHRIST" ....right NOW.
Its already happende.......we have already become "partakers of Christ", and that is why "Christ in you the hope of Glory" is a FACT, right now.
This is why you are in the "body of Christ" RIGHT NOW.., and have not at the end of your Faith, etc.

Ephesians 2:6
1 Corinthians 1:30
Colossians 1:27

 

[JLB]

Titus 3:
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

He didn't save us because we earned salvation by doing good works of righteousness.

He saved us by His grace, and gave us the Holy Spirit.

We know have the hope of eternal life... the hope of eternal life.

as Paul writes to Titus -

15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God [ have eternal life], but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. Titus 1:15-16

Paul also says of this hope we have of eternal life...

But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

Paul clearly specifies which Christians will obtain the eternal life promised to us who believe -

...eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;


JLB

 

[Kidron]

He didn't save us because we earned salvation by doing good works of righteousness.

JLB

If you really believed this, then you would stop posting verses that only have to do with works that "earn" or "keep".
If you really believed that Grace is the Gift of God, then you would stop posting works works works works works...........

 

[JLB]

Here is how you know you are misunderstanding the verse, JLB

We dont become partakers of Christ at the end of steadfastness, we have already become partakers of Christ when we are born again.
This is why we are "seated in heavenly places" right NOW.....this is why we are "IN CHRIST" ....right NOW.
Its already happende.......we have already become "partakers of Christ", and that is why "Christ in you the hope of Glory" is a FACT, right now.
This is why you are in the "body of Christ" RIGHT NOW.., and have not at the end of your Faith, etc.

Ephesians 2:6
1 Corinthians 1:30
Colossians 1:27

Yes we have become partakers of Christ now, BY FAITH... which is why we have the hope of salvation, and the hope of eternal life.


His Spirit dwells in us who have believe and received the Holy Spirit... Acts 19:1-5

Those who continue to abide in Him, will continue to have the hope of salvation and the hope of eternal life.


Those who depart from Him in unbelief, will not be partakers of Him.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called“Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


Are you trying to deny the possibility of this scripture being true?

Are you denying that it's possible to depart from Him in unbelief?


Please read what is written as a warning...
Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God...

You have to be a part of God and connected to Him, or be in Him, to depart from Him.


JLB

 

[Kidron]

Those who continue to abide in Him, will continue to have the hope of salvation and the hope of eternal life.

The "abiding" part is where you are missing the Faith.
See, here is how you are understanding it..

"God saves me when i believe, and then i try to stay saved by doing stuff, "abiding", "good works", enduring to the end".
You are not grasping that all those are works., and what has happened is that you have stopped trusting in God to save you through Christ, "Grace" and have instead decided that you can save yourself by effort.
The issue is, Salvation does not require your effort., it only requires that you are born again.

 

[JLB]

If you really believed this, then you would stop posting verses that only have to do with works that "earn" or "keep".

We can not earn our salvation, but we can reject our salvation by departing from Him.

It's sad you don't seem to know the difference.


JLB