If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

[JLB]

The "abiding" part is where you are missing the Faith.
See, here is how you are understanding it..

"God saves me when i believe, and then i try to stay saved by doing stuff, "abiding", "good works", enduring to the end".
You are not grasping that all those are works., and what has happened is that you have stopped trusting in God to save you through Christ, "Grace" and have instead decided that you can save yourself by effort.
The issue is, Salvation does not require your effort., it only requires that you are born again.

Just more of man's opinion and human reasoning with no scripture.

The only way faith will produce a divine result is by the effort obedience requires.

Repent is how we receive the forgiveness of sins.

Forgiving others is an effort that allows God to forgive us.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

Our choice is to put forth the effort to walk according to the Spirit, rather than walking according to the flesh, so that we can live free from condemnation.


JLB

 

[Kidron]

Just more of man's opinion and human reasoning with no scripture.
JLB

Not my opinion.
But rather this..

Titus 3:5-11
5 He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we have done, but because of His own compassion andmercy, by the cleansing of the new birth (spiritual transformation, regeneration) and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out richly upon us through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that we would be justified [made free of the guilt of sin] by His [compassionate, undeserved] grace, and that we would be [acknowledged as acceptable to Him and] made heirs of eternal life [actually experiencing it]

and this...

Romans 3:21-
Justification by Faith
21 But now the righteousness of God has been clearly revealed [independently and completely] apart from the Law, though it is [actually] confirmed by the Law and the [words and writings of the] Prophets.
22 This righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ for all those [Jew or Gentile] who believe [and trust in Him and acknowledge Him as God’s Son]. There is no distinction,
23 since all have sinned and continually fall short of the glory of God,
24 and are justified [declared free of the guilt of sin, made acceptable to God, and granted eternal life] as a gift by His [precious, undeserved]grace, through the redemption [the payment for our sin] which is [provided] in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God displayed publicly [before the eyes of the world] as a [life-giving] sacrifice of atonement andreconciliation (propitiation) by His blood [to be received] through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness [which demands punishment for sin], because in His forbearance [His deliberate restraint] He passed over the sins previously committed [before Jesus’ crucifixion].
26 It was to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the One who justifies those who have faith in Jesus [and rely confidently on Him as Savior].

28 For we maintain that an individual is justified by faith distinctly apart from works of the Law [the observance of which has nothing to do with justification, that is, being declared free of the guilt of sin and made acceptable to God].

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"I did. Post 263"

You know well that this is no defense for your own views.

Sure it is. Those verses teach eternal security. Unless someone can exegete each verse and show that none of them are about eternal security.

And I notice that you've decided not to engage any of those verses.

Paul had previously defined both justification and eternal life as gifts of God: 3:24,5:151,6,17 and 6:23. So he didn't have to repeat himself in 11:29.

Not one of these scripture references has been written out for discussion.

Each verse speaks for itself, as I noted. But feel free to exegete each verse to show that they don't relate to Rom 11:29. That's what I've been waiting for; someone to SHOW ME how my understanding is wrong.

 

[FreeGrace]

Kidron said: ↑
"eternal life", is that we are in the "Body of Christ", eternally, and this is sealed by the Holy Spirit, and cant be undone by behavior.

Right. It is undone by unbelief.

Please support this claim with Scripture. Opinion doesn't count.

And, please interact with my post #263, which is about the sealing with the Holy Spirit. Can anyone show by exegesis that none of these verses are about eternal security?

Unbelief shuts off access to the one-time for all time sacrifice of Christ continually ministering on behalf of the believer (not the unbeliever) in heaven.

There isn't any Scripture that supports this claim.

 

[JLB]

And once you realize that you have the very righteousness of God as the "gift of righteousness", you will see why there is no need for you to keep trying to saved yourself by works.

Works of righteousness can not save person.

The only thing that we are saved by is grace, through our faith, and even that is a gift of God.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Ephesians 2:4-9

28 For we maintain that an individual is justified by faith distinctly apart from works of the Law

Works of the law can not save a person.


However a person must make a conscience choice to believe the Gospel.

If they choose to believe then they must obey the Gospel.

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

However a person must make a conscience choice to believe the Gospel.

If they choose to believe then they must obey the Gospel.JLB

For salvation? Define "obey the gospel", please.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Right. It is undone by unbelief.

Please support this claim with Scripture. Opinion doesn't count.

Remember, you made the scriptures that plainly say that not really mean what they plainly say. Then you boast that I, or anyone else, has not provided any scripture that says what we are saying (it's nothing more than trolling, IMO).

I will only post them again if just one single person is here in this forum, besides you, who wants to know where it says in scripture that justification/salvation is undone by unbelief. Someone who's lurking, perhaps, and is interested in this subject and is genuinely interested in a mature, respectful, and honest discussion about this. I'm not wasting any more cyber-breath and time on your contentious refusal to accept the plain words of scripture.

This is ONLY being posted to be in compliance with the rules of this thread:
"the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

 

[Kidron]

If they choose to believe then they must obey the Gospel.

JLB

JLB,
To obey the Gospel as a "work" is to believe it., to believe in Jesus.......that is God's work that you are to do., regarding Salvation.

John 6:29....""""Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."""

So, i think you are speaking of a Christian's duty...(Discipleship)...that follows being born again, and does not contribute to salvation, as salvation is not what we do after we believe, like OBEY, but Salvation is what God did for us because we BELIEVED.
It seems to me that you are always trying to substitute some type of work or commandment in place of God's ability through Christ's Blood on a Cross to keep you saved.

 

[MarkT]

Yes i understand what you are saying.
But do you understand that you can keep all the commandments from the day you are born, till the day you die, Yet, if you are not saved, you are eternally Lost?
God does not accept you or keep you based on how you behave, he accepts you based on what Christ did for you that has been credited to you, when you believed the Gospel and are born again.
And conversely , you can break all the commandments, and still be on your way to heaven, as long as you have been FORGIVEN.
So, its not about keeping commandments, or trying to find verses that can be misapplied to try to eliminate the Blood Atonement, but rather its about understanding the Grace of God, believing it, and resting in it.
God never gets rid of His (born again) Children, no matter how they behave.

Titus 3:5-8

Tell it to Jesus. Tell him you don't have to keep his commandments because you are saved.

 

[FreeGrace]

Remember, you made the scriptures that plainly say that not really mean what they plainly say.

I've "made" nothing of what is claimed.

Then you boast that I, or anyone else, has not provided any scripture that says what we are saying (it's nothing more than trolling, IMO).

I've never seen any verse that tells me that my salvation can be lost. But I've seen that eternal life is defined as a gift of God (Rom 6:23) and that God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29). Surely these verses mean what they say.

I will only post them again if just one single person is here in this forum, besides you, who wants to know where it says in scripture that justification/salvation is undone by unbelief. Someone who's lurking, perhaps, and is interested in this subject and is genuinely interested in a mature, respectful, and honest discussion about this.

I certainly hope that someone else also requests that.

This is ONLY being posted to be in compliance with the rules of this thread:
"the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

The Greek word for "hold fast" means to "possess". So, what is believed (saving faith) means that one possesses the faith.

And vice versa. When one believes, they become the possession of God Himself, who seals that believer with the Holy Spirit FOR the day of redemption. And this is a guarantee from God.

Eph 1:13,14 - 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Please explain how this doesn't really mean what it plainly says.

Does God keep His promises? Of course He does. He cannot lie. Heb 6:18.

 

[JLB]

JLB,
To obey the Gospel as a "work" is to believe it., to believe in Jesus.......that is God's work that you are to do., regarding Salvation.

To obey the Gospel command Repent, is to Repent.

 

[JLB]

When one believes, they become the possession of God Himself, who seals that believer with the Holy Spirit FOR the day of redemption. And this is a guarantee from God.

Eph 1:13,14 - 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Yes, we are given the Holy Spirit as a deposit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance.

That is God's promise, to those who obey the Gospel.

If you keep reading in Ephesians you will also find this to be just as true...

5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:5-7

People who use the grace of God as a license to sin, and trample upon the Blood of Jesus, and insult the Spirit of Grace will inherit God's vengeance.

Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:29

 

[Kidron]

To obey the Gospel command Repent, is to Repent.

Quote the scripture that you think is the "Gospel" message, so that you can show us what you are claiming the "gospel" message actually is, JLB.

 

[MarkT]

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

What does it mean to believe in him? To believe in Jesus is to keep his commandments. Then he said, He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father.John 14:2

John 12:47
If any one hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
John 12:48
He who rejects me and does not receive my sayings has a judge; the word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.

 

[Kidron]

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

What does it mean to believe in him?

Jesus said............
John 8:24

"""I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am MESSIAH, ye shall die in your sins.""

So, we see here that to believe in him, is to believe that Jesus is the Son, the Messiah, the Lord, the Savior, the I AM, and the resurrection and "the Truth and the Life and the WAY".
And this is the JESUS commandment that has to do with SALVATION, and not DISCIPLESHIP.

Also,
John 6:28

"""Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29: """"Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."""

So, if anyone reading this is interested in doing a real WORK for God, then these 2 verses are all you need for Salvation.
AS BELIEVING in Jesus, by FAITH, is the only work that you can do, that is the "work" that God accepts to SAVE You.

 

[MarkT]

Jesus said............
John 8:24

"""I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am MESSIAH, ye shall die in your sins.""

So, we see here that to believe in him, is to believe that Jesus is the Son, the Messiah, the Lord, the Savior, the I AM, and the resurrection and "the Truth and the Life and the WAY".
And this is the JESUS commandment that has to do with SALVATION, and not DISCIPLESHIP.

Also,
John 6:28

"""Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29: """"Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."""

So, if anyone reading this is interested in doing a real WORK for God, then these 2 verses are all you need for Salvation.
AS BELIEVING in Jesus, by FAITH, is the only work that you can do, that is the "work" that God accepts to SAVE You.

It's interesting that you differentiate between salvation and discipleship, especially since he said, "he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him."

I'm sure there are many who believe Jesus is the Christ, but how many obey Him? And those who do not obey him shall not see life.

I asked what does it mean to 'believe in' him? To 'believe in' him is to keep his sayings.

Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you? He who comes to him and hears his words and does them, he is like a man who dug deep and laid the foundation on rock. Luke 6:48

 

[Kidron]

It's interesting that you differentiate between salvation and discipleship,

Many Believers do not understand the distinction between ..1.) "present your body a living sacrifice", VS, 2.) "to him that Worketh NOT but believeth on HIM that justifies the ungodly, his FAITH is counted as "RIGHTEOUSNESS".

So, in the first verse, we are told to live holy AFTER we are SAVED.........However if you live holy and have not done the 2nd verse, you are lost, and are going to die like a devil and go to hell like a bullet., as living holy, or "presenting your body a living sacrifice" is NOT accepted by God to save you, as your works are a "filthy rag" to God the Father.
He will NOT save you based on your "presenting your body a living sacrifice" even if you present your body as a living sacrifice from the cradle to the grave.
So, once a believer understands this, and many dont, and many dont want to....but for the ones who want to please the Father, then a believer has to distinguish between what SAVES them, and what they are to do >after they are saved< = that DOES NOT save them.
Salvation, is God saving them, = Cross = Blood atonement
Discipleship is the "holy living" that cant save us or keep us saved, but is what we do BECAUSE we are saved.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes, we are given the Holy Spirit as a deposit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance.

That is God's promise, to those who obey the Gospel.

The Bible doesn't say that in Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 or 5:5. Please don't add to what Scripture says.

If you keep reading in Ephesians you will also find this to be just as true...

5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:5-7

People who use the grace of God as a license to sin, and trample upon the Blood of Jesus, and insult the Spirit of Grace will inherit God's vengeance.

Yes, they will. Which is NOT to say they will lose their PROMISED day of redemption.

Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:29

Yep. Nothing here about loss of salvation. Which is guaranteed.

 

[MarkT]

Many Believers do not understand the distinction between ..1.) "present your body a living sacrifice", VS, 2.) "to him that Worketh NOT but believeth on HIM that justifies the ungodly, his FAITH is counted as "RIGHTEOUSNESS".

So, in the first verse, we are told to live holy AFTER we are SAVED.........However if you live holy and have not done the 2nd verse, you are lost, and are going to die like a devil and go to hell like a bullet., as living holy, or "presenting your body a living sacrifice" is NOT accepted by God to save you, as your works are a "filthy rag" to God the Father.
He will NOT save you based on your "presenting your body a living sacrifice" even if you present your body as a living sacrifice from the cradle to the grave.
So, once a believer understands this, and many dont, and many dont want to....but for the ones who want to please the Father, then a believer has to distinguish between what SAVES them, and what they are to do >after they are saved< = that DOES NOT save them.
Salvation, is God saving them, = Cross = Blood atonement
Discipleship is the "holy living" that cant save us or keep us saved, but is what we do BECAUSE we are saved.

If by 'holy living' you mean keeping his commandments, I agree. The Holy Spirit compels us to keep his commandments. Jesus said, 'For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Mt. 6:14-15 Do you do this? Jesus said, 'he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him'. John 3:36

I'm not saying it is easy, that's for sure, but it is something we have to do. But then again the Holy Spirit compels us to do it. It's in our nature. Funny how that works.

 

[Kidron]

I'm not saying it is easy, that's for sure, but it is something we have to do. But then again the Holy Spirit compels us to do it. It's in our nature. Funny how that works.

Yep.
Paul said he was compelled to do what he did.
Maybe this can be defined as ZEAL.

Psalm 69:9
John 2:17