If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

[FreeGrace]

I'm not repeating myself if you understand what I'm saying. Jesus said, He who does not believe is condemned already. If you think it is about changing one's mind you are sorely missing the power of the gospel. The word is literally sown in the heart and it is the power of God that keeps us standing in belief.
John 6:29
Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
1 Thessalonians 2:13
And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.



Never warns of loss of salvation? Of course Jesus was concerned they would fall away and lose their salvation. Why do you take things so lightly? Why be concerned? And later he said many would fall away and betray one another and hate one another Mt. 24:10 and then, 'no human being would be saved'. Mt. 24:22

Many of his disciples fell away John 6:66, and the Jews who had believed in him now wanted to stone him. John 8:31-40



You keep referring to Romans 6:23. The RSV says, "But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life." Romans 6:22 Then Paul said, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23

So the free gift is sanctification and its end, eternal life. And I already addressed Romans 11:29



No it doesn't. God is faithful. The letter to the Ephesians is to the saints who are faithful in Christ. Those who heard the word of truth and believed in Christ were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. Eph. 1:13 Are you associating the saints with unbelievers? Is the unbeliever who is condemned because he does not believe a saint in your theology?



Jesus said so. If you don't remain in the vine, you will be cut off from the life of the vine. "He is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:6

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

Well, one is free to misunderstand any Scripture they want to. Have a nice day.

 

[JLB]

But that doesn't change anything because the new birth, regeneration and becoming a new creature cannot be undone.

you mean like Lucifer and one third of the angels.

Angels are called sons of God.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 2 Peter 2:4

This one verse pretty much ends your OSAS theory.

Those who are worthy to attain the ressurrection will be as the Angels being sons of God in reality.

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36

Adam is God's son, but was not born again.

Angels are sons of God.

Those who are worthy to attain the resurrection will be like the angels and are sons of God, having an immortal body that will never die.

Being a son of God, does not exempt you from being cast down to hell if you are rebellious and disobedient.


JLB

 

[MarkT]

And falling into unbelief means losing your faith. So how are the fallen saved?

 

[WIP]

PLEASE TAKE NOTE!!!
As I do some catch up reading through the posts over the past couple days I am sensing a lot of personal animosity toward each other. Are we here to beat each other up or to help each other learn the Truth? If we can't be cordial with our responses, I will begin removing them and awarding appropriate disciplinary action.

 

[MarkT]

Because there is a DIFFERENT Greek word for feeling sorry. That's why.


The meaning you ascribe to "repent" is 'metamellamai' in the Greek. Different than metanoeo.


No maybe's about it. With few exceptions, the NT was written in the Koine Greek.


As you've admitted, you don't know.

It may be, but saying the NT was written in Koine Greek doesn't mean Jesus spoke Greek. Our Bible is written in English. Does that mean Jesus spoke English?

You're accusing the translators of mistranslating a word and then you say it's ok. Doesn't matter. No problem as long as you know what it means. But the Greek word doesn't mean anything to me. I don't speak Greek. The English word is what I understand.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"But that doesn't change anything because the new birth, regeneration and becoming a new creature cannot be undone."

you mean like Lucifer and one third of the angels.

What?! Who said anything about angels being born anew, regenerated, or becoming new creatures on the basis of faith? No one is who. So your question is quite out of line.

Angels are called sons of God.

Please prove that they are in the SAME SENSE as a human who becomes a son of God through faith in Christ. Otherwise, the comparison is illegitimate.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 2 Peter 2:4

This one verse pretty much ends your OSAS theory.

lol Although, on second thought, you're really serious. Wow.

Unless anyone can show from Scripture that angels ATTAINED the status of sons of God through faith in Christ, like humans do, there is no comparison at all.

So that one point pretty much ends your loss of salvation theory.

Please address my points about the sealing with the Holy Spirit:

Paul clearly taught eternal security in these verses:

Eph 1:13,14 - 13InHim, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Eph 4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Cor 1:22 - who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

2 Cor 5:5 - Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

So, what has Paul taught here?

First, having believed, we are SEALED IN HIM (union with Christ) with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE, given as a PLEDGE FOR the day of redemption of God's own possession. This seal is a PLEDGE from God.

And consider this verse:

Heb 6:18 - so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us.

So, for one to accept your view of loss of salvation, 2 things are required:

1. Either prove by exegesis that Eph 1:13,14 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 do NOT teach eternal security, or

2. Accept that God DOES break His promises and pledges, which makes Him a liar. Even though Scripture SAYS that it is impossible for God to lie.

The challenge is to prove that this seal can be broken without God becoming a liar. I can't wait for your reply.

 

[FreeGrace]

And falling into unbelief means losing your faith. So how are the fallen saved?

They were saved WHEN they believed. And there is NO verse that teaches that loss of faith results in loss of salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

It may be, but saying the NT was written in Koine Greek doesn't mean Jesus spoke Greek. Our Bible is written in English. Does that mean Jesus spoke English?

The NT of God's Word was written in Greek, regardless of what Jesus spoke. If what He spoke was Aramaic, the writers simply wrote what He said in Greek. And God's Word (NT) was written in Greek. So your point is not taken because even if Jesus spoke Aramaic it doesn't matter. What we have is the Greek. Inspired by the Holy Spirit.

You're accusing the translators of mistranslating a word and then you say it's ok. Doesn't matter. No problem as long as you know what it means. But the Greek word doesn't mean anything to me. I don't speak Greek. The English word is what I understand.

Which is NOT what the actual real Holy Spirit inspired word meant.

btw, where did I accuse translators of mistranslating any word and my approval of that? Please cite post #.

 

[JLB]

What?! Who said anything about angels being born anew, regenerated, or becoming new creatures on the basis of faith? No one is who. So your question is quite out of line.

Angels, like Adam don't need to be born of God as they are already God's sons.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Please prove that they are in the SAME SENSE as a human who becomes a son of God through faith in Christ. Otherwise, the comparison is illegitimate.

Angels are sons of God.

Humans who are born of God
(born again), are sons of God by faith, and will be sons of God in reality when they attain the resurrection, in which they will have an immortal body that will never die, and be like the angels, having become sons of God.

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36

Only those who are counted worthy to attain that age, will be considered equal to the angels, and will be sons of God.


JLB

 

[MarkT]

The NT of God's Word was written in Greek, regardless of what Jesus spoke. If what He spoke was Aramaic, the writers simply wrote what He said in Greek. And God's Word (NT) was written in Greek. So your point is not taken because even if Jesus spoke Aramaic it doesn't matter. What we have is the Greek. Inspired by the Holy Spirit.


Which is NOT what the actual real Holy Spirit inspired word meant.

btw, where did I accuse translators of mistranslating any word and my approval of that? Please cite post #.

The English translation of the word is repent - to feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin. True?

That's all that matters. Repent is not just a change of mind. It's a change of heart. As in, 'if they repent with all their mind and with all their heart' 1 Kings 8:48 So there has to be some regret for what we did. John said bear fruit that befits repentance. There has to be something at work in the heart, not just the head.

If you say repent (the English word) doesn't mean repent, then you are saying the English translators got it wrong. If you are not accusing them of mistranslating, then what are you doing?

 

[MarkT]

They were saved WHEN they believed. And there is NO verse that teaches that loss of faith results in loss of salvation.

I disagree. Can you prove they were saved?

 

[MarkT]

Hebrews 10:35-39Revised Standard Version (RSV)
35 Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that you may do the will of God and receive what is promised.

37 “For yet a little while,
and the coming one shall come and shall not tarry;
38 but my righteous one shall live by faith,
and if he shrinks back,
my soul has no pleasure in him.”

39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and keep their souls.

Is he talking about believers who shrink back? Of course. He is talking about those who live by faith. He says, those who shrink back are destroyed, but according to you it can't happen because they are saved. According to you faith isn't required.

Now this applies to believers. How much worse will it be for unbelievers.

 

[JLB]

Hebrews 10:35-39Revised Standard Version (RSV)
35 Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that you may do the will of God and receive what is promised.

37 “For yet a little while,
and the coming one shall come and shall not tarry;
38 but my righteous one shall live by faith,
and if he shrinks back,
my soul has no pleasure in him.”

39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and keep their souls.

Is he talking about believers who shrink back? Of course. He is talking about those who live by faith. He says, those who shrink back are destroyed, but according to you it can't happen because they are saved. According to you faith isn't required.

Now this applies to believers. How much worse will it be for unbelievers.

Yes, he is talking about Jewish believers who once believed, then persecution arises, because of the message of the Gospel from those who hold to Judaism, and are those who will kill and torture believers in order to turn them back to Judaism, like Saul of Tarsus and others.

Jesus taught about this in Luke 8.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

...in time of temptation, is a reference to persecution.

Matthew says it this way - For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

The clear message from the Lord in Luke is...who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.


The scripture you posted, teaches of this very thing, and is unmistakable in this same language...

But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and keep their souls. Hebrews 10:39 RSV

But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. Hebrews 10:39 KJV

The language is clear, as is the context from verse 29...
Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Angels, like Adam don't need to be born of God as they are already God's sons.
JLB

I'm sorry you've missed the point entirely. When referring to Adam and angels, yes, God did create them directly, and it is in that sense that they are called "sons of God".

However, I'm speaking of John 1:12 and Gal 3:26:
Jn 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name
Gal 3:26 - For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Please note the difference: "sons of God THROUGH faith in Christ". Not at all the same as being created by God directly.

It is this reference to being 'sons of God' that is related to being adopted as sons.

Eph 1:5 - In love predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will

So, when I speak of believers becoming God's sons, it is through adoption, which is through Jesus Christ. Which has NOTHING in common with being created directly by God.

So there is no need to bring up Adam and angels as being 'sons of God'. That is a totally different sense.

 

[FreeGrace]

The English translation of the word is repent - to feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin. True?

Yes, but so what? None of the Holy Spirit inspired writers of the NT used the English word.

That's all that matters.

Not to those who are serious students of the Word and want to "rightly divide the Word of Truth" per 2 Tim 2:15.

If you say repent (the English word) doesn't mean repent, then you are saying the English translators got it wrong. If you are not accusing them of mistranslating, then what are you doing?

All I'm doing is showing what the Greek word means. Which is rightly dividing the Word of Truth, which is what believers are supposed to do.

 

[JLB]

I'm sorry you've missed the point entirely. When referring to Adam and angels, yes, God did create them directly, and it is in that sense that they are called "sons of God".

There is no "in that sense" to it.

Angels are defined as sons of God.

Adam is defined as a son of God.

Those who are worthy to attain that age ang the resurrection will have become like the angels as sons of God. Luke 20:35-36


JLB

 

[JLB]

Please note the difference: "sons of God THROUGH faith in Christ". Not at all the same as being created by God directly.

Yes! Big difference.

Those who are created as sons of God, are sons of God in reality.

Those who are sons of God by faith, have the hope of becoming sons of God, and attaining to that age, and the resurrection.

Sons of God by faith, means by definition, that you have the substance of what you are hoping for, and evidence of the thing [son-ship not seen.

If you have the hope of son-ship, then you don't have it in reality, but you have it by faith.


Glad you finally see the difference.


JLB]

 

[FreeGrace]

There is no "in that sense" to it.

Angels are defined as sons of God.

Adam is defined as a son of God.

I've given a Biblical explanation as to why there is such a huge difference between angels and Adam being called sons of God and believers in the Lord Jesus Christ becoming sons of God THROUGH believing in Christ.

Adam wasn't created and sometime later became a son of God. Neither did any angel.

But I will leave it to each reader to understand the huge difference between them.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes! Big difference.

Those who are created as sons of God, are sons of God in reality.

Those who are sons of God by faith, have the hope of becoming sons of God, and attaining to that age, and the resurrection.

Sons of God by faith, means by definition, that you have the substance of what you are hoping for, and evidence of the thing [son-ship not seen.

If you have the hope of son-ship, then you don't have it in reality, but you have it by faith.
Glad you finally see the difference.JLB]

Again, the Bible says quite differently. Believers are said to be new creatures. 2 Cor 5:17. What can that mean except that we are NOW the sons of God, when before belief we weren't?

Where does the Bible specify WHEN one becomes a son of God, if not at belief in Christ?