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If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

Who thinks asking for a gift, when is received worked for it, and earned it?

  • Worked for it, and earned it!

    Votes: 1 8.3%
  • Didn't work for it, and didn't earn it!

    Votes: 11 91.7%

  • Total voters
    12
Yes, but so what? None of the Holy Spirit inspired writers of the NT used the English word.

It doesn't matter.

If the Greek NT is written in Koine, I don't have a dictionary from that time. And the Greek NT was probably translated from Aramaic. It makes no sense to argue about the meaning of words.

The English translators of the Greek text used repent, which is an English word, which means to feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin. Were they not just as Holy Spirit inspired as the Greeks? I don't know if they were Holy Spirit inspired or not. I don't know that the Greeks were Holy Spirit inspired or not.

I do know we have the English Bible, written in English, so we don't have to dispute the meaning of words.
 
All I'm doing is showing what the Greek word means. Which is rightly dividing the Word of Truth, which is what believers are supposed to do.

How do you know what it means?

And the word of truth is the gospel; it's not a single word.
 
It doesn't matter.
Our individual opinions don't matter. The ONLY THING that matters is what God's Word says. And for that, one MUST consider the words used by the original authors. Not the words of translation, which are not inspired.

If the Greek NT is written in Koine, I don't have a dictionary from that time.
Well, I didn't either, until I got one. :)

And the Greek NT was probably translated from Aramaic. It makes no sense to argue about the meaning of words.
It would be helpful to do some basic research. The NT was written in Greek, not Aramaic.

The English translators of the Greek text used repent, which is an English word, which means to feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin. Were they not just as Holy Spirit inspired as the Greeks? I don't know if they were Holy Spirit inspired or not. I don't know that the Greeks were Holy Spirit inspired or not.
This is revealing. Admitting what you don't know. That's a start. So please withhold opinions until more is learned.

First, why would anyone assume that translators were directly inspired by the Holy Spirit? The Bible sure doesn't make any such claim. As to your second "don't know", it wasn't the "Greeks" who were Holy Spirit inspired, but the writers of the NT.

This is what the Bible says about that:
20But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. 1 Pet 1:20-21

I do know we have the English Bible, written in English, so we don't have to dispute the meaning of words.
Since NO translation was inspired by the Holy Spirit, my benchmark is what the Holy Spirit said, which was in Greek.

There is no excuse for anyone today not obtaining a Greek lexicon. They can be ordered online.
 
I said this:
"All I'm doing is showing what the Greek word means. Which is rightly dividing the Word of Truth, which is what believers are supposed to do."
How do you know what it means?
Scholars who know the Greek told me. By way of Greek lexicons. Available online.
 
Again, the Bible says quite differently. Believers are said to be new creatures. 2 Cor 5:17. What can that mean except that we are NOW the sons of God, when before belief we weren't?

Where does the Bible specify WHEN one becomes a son of God, if not at belief in Christ?

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13

We who believe are granted the power, the right to become sons of God.


Now we are children of God, by faith.

However, the bible defines for us that faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

By definition, if we still have faith, we are in fact hoping for salvation, hoping to become sons of God.

For now we are sons of God by faith.

Paul makes this point clear.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

...but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.


...why does one still hope for what he sees. - Why does one still hope for what he already has?

But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.


Again Paul comes out and clearly says -

10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do,forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.

17 Brethren, join in following my example,
and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things. Philippians 3:10-19


It is those who are worthy to attain that age and the resurrection, who are sons of God and have become like the angels, having an immortal body that will never die.

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36

Now we who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, eagerly wait for it with perseverance, and looking forward to those things which are ahead.


To be continued...


JLB







 
Just thought I'd throw this out there. Even if we believe we can read and understand the original languages, is not our understanding still nothing more than our own interpretation lest the Holy Spirit intervenes and directs us?
 
And falling into unbelief means losing your faith. So how are the fallen saved?

Because Faith does not save you.
God saves you, based on Jesus dying for you, in your place.
So, this death of Jesus has been credited to you, and what has happened is that you've been perfected, justified, sanctified, and redeemed.
God has literally purchased you with the Blood of Jesus, and that is why the bible tells you that you are "bought with a Price"., and that prices is the eternal blood of Jesus.....as this blood is saving people today even tho He shed it 2000 years ago.
And why is that?....Its because it God's blood that has saved you, and as God is eternal His salvation by His blood, is eternal., and this is why you are kept by this Blood, and not your works, as your works are temporary and the Blood of God is eternal.
God has literally taken the sinlessness of Christ and credited it to you, and has taken you sins and your sin debt and killed Christ with it.
 
By definition, if we still have faith, we are in fact hoping for salvation, hoping to become sons of God.
Paul makes this point clear.

So you can post scriptures, but you dont yet understand that being BORN AGAIN, means you HAVE BECOME, a Son of God?
Thats remarkable., and not in a good way, as you have actually DENIED the Bible.

You say that we are hoping to become the sons of God when JOHN and PAUL told you that are already a Son of God.

John 1: 12..... "" But as many as received JESUS, to them gave GOD power to become the Sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.""

Galatians 4:7 .... "you are no more a servant BUT A SON, and if a SON, then a heir of God through Christ."""
 
Because Faith does not save you.

No sir!

The faith that you have by hearing the Gospel comes from God.

God does not believe for you, rather you must do the work of believing.

You can not be saved apart from faith.

48 Then He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
49 And those who sat at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins
Then He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.”
Luke 7:48-50


JLB
 
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
That's what I've been talking about; those who BECOME sons of God. Which has nothing to do with being created and called a son of God. Totally different.

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13
We who believe are granted the power, the right to become sons of God.


Now we are children of God, by faith.
Again, that's what I'm talking about.

However, the bible defines for us that faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1
By definition, if we still have faith, we are in fact hoping for salvation, hoping to become sons of God.

For now we are sons of God by faith.

Paul makes this point clear.
He sure did. By the phrase "for NOW, we ARE the sons of God". There is nothing here about hoping to be saved. There's NO FAITH in that.

In the NT, the Greek word for "hope" means 'confident expectation', not how we use the word today, as in "I hope so".

For those who have believed in Christ, they KNOW so, they don't hope so.

Those who hope so simply do not have enough faith to KNOW that they will go to heaven.

Regarding all the verses included in your post, I saw no point in addressing them, because Paul was crystal clear about the issue: "for NOW, we ARE the SONS of God". That says it all.

There is no "hoping" for salvation at some future point. Because we ARE NOW the sons of God through faith.

btw, what verse teaches that we are sons of God ONLY AS LONG as we maintain our belief?
 
Just thought I'd throw this out there. Even if we believe we can read and understand the original languages, is not our understanding still nothing more than our own interpretation lest the Holy Spirit intervenes and directs us?
I believe that Scripture is wholly in harmony and that there are no contradictions. When one's views (or interpretations) create a direct contradiction with other verses, then it is clear that the Holy Spirit hasn't intervened or directed that one.

I'm curious; since Paul defined both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God, what else could he have been referring to in Rom 11:29?
 
Because Faith does not save you.
God saves you, based on Jesus dying for you, in your place.
So, this death of Jesus has been credited to you, and what has happened is that you've been perfected, justified, sanctified, and redeemed.
God has literally purchased you with the Blood of Jesus, and that is why the bible tells you that you are "bought with a Price"., and that prices is the eternal blood of Jesus.....as this blood is saving people today even tho He shed it 2000 years ago.
And why is that?....Its because it God's blood that has saved you, and as God is eternal His salvation by His blood, is eternal., and this is why you are kept by this Blood, and not your works, as your works are temporary and the Blood of God is eternal.
God has literally taken the sinlessness of Christ and credited it to you, and has taken you sins and your sin debt and killed Christ with it.
:thumbsup
 
You can not be saved apart from faith.
Sure. But that doesn't mean that one's action of belief is the saving agent. God ALONE is the ONLY saving agent. No one else.

We don't save ourselves by our faith. And to say that God gives us the faith, that use of 'faith' is ALWAYS a noun, meaning the body of what we believe. Yes, it is God who gives us the body of what He wants us to believe.

The Bible teaches that God saves those who believe.

1 Cor 1:21 says so, clearly. For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

So, it is clear that it is God who saves. Not our faith. But He saves only those who believe.
 
Just thought I'd throw this out there. Even if we believe we can read and understand the original languages, is not our understanding still nothing more than our own interpretation lest the Holy Spirit intervenes and directs us?
I would generally agree that The Spirit and The Word work in conjunction. Can't legitimately separate them.

The difficulty for any of us is perhaps recognizing that the Word and the Spirit says we all see only in part and see, darkly. I might say that's easy to see, understand and it's quite truthful, but seldom is this our common, truthful, mutual ground.

1 Corinthians 13:
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
 
We just ask for his free gift of salvation and receive it. Who here thinks if you ask someone to give you their brand new Lamborghini as a gift is working for it? Who here thinks the person asking for a Lamborghini as a gift worked for it and earned it when he received the lamborghini for free, to keep forever! !

Who thinks that if you don't take care of that Lamborghini it will soon be a very expensive and useless pile of junk?

my 2 kopecks
iakov the fool
 
Sure. But that doesn't mean that one's action of belief is the saving agent. God ALONE is the ONLY saving agent. No one else.

We don't save ourselves by our faith. And to say that God gives us the faith, that use of 'faith' is ALWAYS a noun, meaning the body of what we believe. Yes, it is God who gives us the body of what He wants us to believe.

The Bible teaches that God saves those who believe.

1 Cor 1:21 says so, clearly. For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

So, it is clear that it is God who saves. Not our faith. But He saves only those who believe.

What's clear is what the bible says about this point of discussion.

48 Then He said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."
49
And those who sat at the table with Him began to say to themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?"
50 Then He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you. Go in peace."

The point is her faith, is what saved her, according to Jesus Christ.


Likewise the woman with an issue of blood was made well by her faith.

20 And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment.
21 For she said to herself, "If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well."
22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, "Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well." And the woman was made well from that hour. Matthew 9:20-22

This woman's faith,
as demonstrated by her action to touch the hem of His garment is how she was healed.


JLB
 
Our individual opinions don't matter. The ONLY THING that matters is what God's Word says. And for that, one MUST consider the words used by the original authors. Not the words of translation, which are not inspired.

Well, I didn't either, until I got one. :)


It would be helpful to do some basic research. The NT was written in Greek, not Aramaic.

The Greek NT was written in Greek. That's not the same as saying the NT was written in Greek. In fact there was no need for a Greek NT until after the Greeks received the gospel.

It is generally agreed that Jesus and his disciples primarily spoke Aramaic, the common language of Judea in the first century AD, most likely a Galilean dialect distinguishable from that of Jerusalem.[1] The towns of Nazareth and Capernaum in Galilee, where Jesus spent most of his time, were Aramaic-speaking communities.[2] Wikipedia

The gospels were written by those who were there, who saw him and who heard him, as witnesses to the truth - Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot and Judas the son of James. Acts 1:13

In Judea the gospels would have been written in Aramaic. Afterwards the gospels were translated into Greek and finally into English, and the English word is repent which means to feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin. And if the Greek says otherwise, then it is the Greek that is in error. But I doubt it is the Greek. In fact, I'm sure it is the scholars who are leading you astray.
 
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Jesus said, 'So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.” Mt. 18:35

and, "if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.” Luke 17:4

So as forgiving must be from the heart, so likewise repentance must be from the heart.
 
Just thought I'd throw this out there. Even if we believe we can read and understand the original languages, is not our understanding still nothing more than our own interpretation lest the Holy Spirit intervenes and directs us?

We have the English translation given to us. How did we get it? It makes no difference to me. It is according to God's purpose and by His will; we are not alone.
 
Jesus said, 'So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.” Mt. 18:35

and, "if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.” Luke 17:4

So as forgiving must be from the heart, so likewise repentance must be from the heart.

:salute
 
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