If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

[FreeGrace]

I'm watching this thread very closely, for 49 pages and 975 posts.
According to some of you, we are all going to hell.
That's not what the Holy Spirit has put in my heart.
So we are not all going to hell, just some of you.
OSAS.

 

[FreeGrace]

I'm with you. I'm not going to hell either. I've heard the gospel and have received it, and I am standing on it, and am saved by it, if I hold fast that which I have heard.

This sounds very clearly as if you are responsible for your own salvation. That wasn't what Paul taught.

He did teach that eternal life is a gift of God in Rom 6:23 and that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29. How about that!! All in one epistle. The context cannot be denied.

Otherwise, all the believing I have done will have been in vain. But as it is, I'm holding fast to the gospel.

I would suggest that it is God who holds onto us, not the other way around as you have described.

I believe what Jesus said here:
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

In v.28, what does Jesus give to believers? Eternal life.
What is the result of having eternal life? They will NEVER PERISH. And, NO ONE will snatch them out of His hand.

In v.29, the Father gave them to Jesus. And NO ONE is able to snatch them out of His hand either.

The phrase "no one" means "no person". Those who consider themselves persons cannot remove themselves from the Father's hand.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Greek is clear. It is 1 word, and means to possess. iow, those who have believed the gospel possess it. It does not suggest that one must keep holding onto something, like a lifeline or something.

It doesn't matter what the Greek word for 'hold fast' means. The point is, it is what you must do in order to stand in, and by saved by the gospel:

1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

But you say there is no 'if' in regard to salvation after salvation. Paul says there is. I'm going with Paul on this one.

Since believing the gospel results in being saved WHEN one believes (Jn 5:24), this analogy fails.

No, that doesn't cause the analogy to fail because the person who believes is indeed saved in the moment they believe. What is ignored in OSAS doctrine is the plain scripture I cited that says the salvation they most certainly have is conditioned on them continuing in the faith that secured it for them in the first place.

One who never believed, obviously.

Paul plainly said that they heard/received/believed/and were saved by the gospel.

"...the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved..." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

Nope. Because eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23). And God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

Paul's plain statement that it is 'if' one continues to do something they will be saved instantly destroys a far lesser compelling argument that Paul was supposedly saying salvation is an irrevocable gift by virtue of it being a gift in Romans 11.

Not true, because there are no verses that tell us that one can give back, lose, or otherwise "no longer have" the free gift.

But this passage I quoted is the scripture that says that.
Using your logic we could not believe the sky is blue from a statement that says the sky is blue because there is no statement that says the sky is blue.

Eternal life isn't like a coin or some object that can be lost, misplaced, etc.

Paul plainly said to saved people that you are saved IF you 'do' what he said to do. And if you don't do that then the believing you have done has been done in vain.

There simply are no verses that teach that salvation can be lost. Or we'd have seen the verses by now. But we haven't seen any such verses.

Here it is again...

1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

But I'm aware that hardened indoctrinations in a person can make it so people can not see plain passages of scripture.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This sounds very clearly as if you are responsible for your own salvation. That wasn't what Paul taught.

Who did your believing for you?
You're probably afraid to take any credit whatsoever for your believing because you think that doing that is somehow the equivalent of the works gospel that Paul said can not justify a person. Somehow 'faith' got moved over to the side of works in Paul's works vs. faith teaching in Romans.

He did teach that eternal life is a gift of God in Rom 6:23 and that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29. How about that!! All in one epistle. The context cannot be denied.

Just as you refuse to see the truth of 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB so it is that you refuse to see the context of Romans 11.

I believe what Jesus said here:
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

I believe it too. Keep believing and you can take this one to the bank. Faith is what makes God's gift of salvation sure. Faith is not work that it should somehow be considered 'works' and, therefore, can not be an ongoing condition for salvation.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Marvelous debate.

 

[JLB]

Actually, you haven't show any proof from Scripture that anyone ever has been "removed from Christ". What verse tells us that one can be removed from Christ. I don't find such language or wording anywhere in the Bible.

Denying what the scriptures says, seems to be your MO.

Sorry, but I don't see anything funny in my comment or ib Rom 11:29.

It's extremely funny, that you just reject what the scriptures say, when you have been proven wrong.

Therefore, Paul clearly taught eternal security in Ephesians.

Therefore Paul never taught eternal security.

It's just another man made term, to prop up a man made doctrine that is no where to be found in scripture.


Just like your "theory" about Romans 11;29, the word eternal nor life, nor salvation is found there.


Here is what Jesus said about being saved.


11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12-13


Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, have become un-believers!

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

again

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6-7


People who believe for a while or abide for a while, and are no longer IN HIM, no longer have eternal life.



JLB

 

[smaller]

What is it about Paul's 'if' that you do not understand?

1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

Is the problem that these are plain words of scripture that grate against a preconceived belief that insists one will still still 'stand' in and be 'saved' by the gospel despite the 'if' of their unbelief? Explain why Paul's 'if' doesn't really mean what it so plainly says above.

We hold fast to the fact that we have A Savior, Jesus Christ, who Saves.

Believing otherwise isn't believing at all.

Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

Isaiah 63:
7 I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the Lord, and the praises of the Lord, according to all that the Lord hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.
8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.

 

[FreeGrace]

It doesn't matter what the Greek word for 'hold fast' means.

I guess one can hold to that opinion. But it is the Greek that came from the Holy Spirit, not our English or any other translation.

iow, it does matter for those who are interested in what God's Word actually says.

The point is, it is what you must do in order to stand in, and by saved by the gospel:

The point is that one must possess it. Not hold onto it. And I proved that it is God who holds onto us, not the other way around as you seem to suggest. John 10:28,29

[/QUOTE]1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

But you say there is no 'if' in regard to salvation after salvation. Paul says there is. I'm going with Paul on this one. [/QUOTE]
He clearly said "if you possess God's Word". He did not say "if you hold onto God's Word". That kind of language means that our salvation is in our own hands. The Bible does not teach that, as I have already proved.

Once again, it is God who holds onto us. Remember what Jesus said about those who believe: I give them eternal life and THEY WILL NEVER PERISH. I really don't know how to teach eternal security any more clear than how He said it.

No, that doesn't cause the analogy to fail because the person who believes is indeed saved in the moment they believe. What is ignored in OSAS doctrine is the plain scripture I cited that says the salvation they most certainly have is conditioned on them continuing in the faith that secured it for them in the first place.

So, then, what Jesus said isn't true in your view?? He said He gives them (believers) eternal life and they will NEVER PERISH. How do you get around that?

Paul plainly said that they heard/received/believed/and were saved by the gospel.

Sure did.

"...the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved..." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

Paul's plain statement that it is 'if' one continues to do something they will be saved instantly destroys a far lesser compelling argument that Paul was supposedly saying salvation is an irrevocable gift by virtue of it being a gift in Romans 11.

Say what??!! Paul's plain statement has nothing to do with continuing to "do something".

In fact, this idea is refuted by Paul's answer to the jailer, who asked him what he MUST DO to be saved. Paul told him to believe (aorist tense - point in time) and he will be saved (future tense - future to believing).

But this passage I quoted is the scripture that says that.

No, what you said is not what Scripture says.

Using your logic we could not believe the sky is blue from a statement that says the sky is blue because there is no statement that says the sky is blue.

I'm using Scripture. Which you've admitted doesn't matter to you. Remember?

Paul plainly said to saved people that you are saved IF you 'do' what he said to do.

Please quote whatever verse says that. And it isn't 1 Cor 15:1-3.

And if you don't do that then the believing you have done has been done in vain.

I know the Greek doesn't matter to you, but "in vain" means "without reason" in the Greek. That means believing without reason. iow, not believing in the actual real reason we need to believe in Him: which is for eternal life. For that is what He promises to give those who believe in Him.


Here it is again...

1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

But I'm aware that hardened indoctrinations in a person can make it so people can not see plain passages of scripture.[/QUOTE]

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"This sounds very clearly as if you are responsible for your own salvation. That wasn't what Paul taught."

Who did your believing for you?

My action of believing in Christ does NOT in any way make me "responsible for my salvation". Why would anyone think such a thing? God alone is responsible for saving those who believe.

You're probably afraid to take any credit whatsoever for your believing because you think that doing that is somehow the equivalent of the works gospel that Paul said can not justify a person.

Paul was very clear about the difference between faith and works in Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9.

Somehow 'faith' got moved over to the side of works in Paul's works vs. faith teaching in Romans.

Not in my view. Faith is non meritorious.

Just as you refuse to see the truth of 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB so it is that you refuse to see the context of Romans 11.

I don't think you could be further from the truth.

I believe it too. Keep believing and you can take this one to the bank.

I'm not interested in the bank. It's heaven that I'm interested in. And Jesus promised that those to whom He gives the irrevocable free gift of eternal life WILL NOT PERISH. In fact, He is quoted saying that twice: In John 3:16 and John 10:28. Is twice not enough to believe it?

Faith is what makes God's gift of salvation sure

What verse says so? It is God who makes salvation sure. The promise comes from Him alone. That is enough for me.

Faith is not work that it should somehow be considered 'works' and, therefore, can not be an ongoing condition for salvation.

You haven't shown any evidence for your claims.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Actually, you haven't show any proof from Scripture that anyone ever has been "removed from Christ". What verse tells us that one can be removed from Christ. I don't find such language or wording anywhere in the Bible."

Denying what the scriptures says, seems to be your MO.

Dodging my questions seems to be your MO. I asked for a verse that supports your claim that one can be "removed from Christ", but all you can do in response is change the subject to a false idea. My question was not denying Scripture, but rather, asking you to show how Scripture supports your claim. Which you failed to do.

It's extremely funny, that you just reject what the scriptures say, when you have been proven wrong.

Another empty claim.

Therefore Paul never taught eternal security.

He described both justification and eternal life as gifts of God, and then said that God's gifts are irrevocable. So who's denying Scripture? Not me.

People who believe for a while or abide for a while, and are no longer IN HIM, no longer have eternal life.
JLB

Except you have never proven this from Scripture. It remains an unsubstantiated opinion.

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"Actually, you haven't show any proof from Scripture that anyone ever has been "removed from Christ". What verse tells us that one can be removed from Christ. I don't find such language or wording anywhere in the Bible."

Dodging my questions seems to be your MO. I asked for a verse that supports your claim that one can be "removed from Christ", but all you can do in response is change the subject to a false idea. My question was not denying Scripture, but rather, asking you to show how Scripture supports your claim. Which you failed to do.


Another empty claim.


He described both justification and eternal life as gifts of God, and then said that God's gifts are irrevocable. So who's denying Scripture? Not me.


Except you have never proven this from Scripture. It remains an unsubstantiated opinion.

Another response with no scripture,

Your whole theology seems to summed up in deny the scriptures I post, and saying I have shown "no proof'.

The words of Jesus Christ are the proof.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:2,5-6

In Christ = Eternal life.
No longer connected to Christ = thrown into the fire and burned.


Disconnected from Him -

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


People that depart from Him, through becoming hardened by the deceitfulness of sin, are no longer a partaker of Christ.


OSAS is no where to be found in the Bible.


21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
Romans 11:21-22

Those who fell... severity.

if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Another response with no scripture,

Because it was a challenge to you to provide clear verses about loss of salvation. None of your responses include any Scripture that teaches loss of salvation.

Your whole theology seems to summed up in deny the scriptures I post, and saying I have shown "no proof'.

Because it's true. Except I have never denied any Scripture. I've explained what they mean. And you've shown no proof in your views.

The words of Jesus Christ are the proof.

I fully agree. He taught eternal security in John 10:28 and 29. God holds the believer in His hands. And Jesus said that believers WILL NEVER PERISH. That's very clear.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:2,5-6

In Christ = Eternal life.
No longer connected to Christ = thrown into the fire and burned.

What you haven't shown or proved is that anyone can be "disconnected from Christ". It's just your theory, and unsubstantiated at that.

The proof is found in Eph 1:13,14 and 4:30. When one believes in Christ, they are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit, as a pledge towards God's own possession, for the day of redemption. And you've never bothered to explain how these verses don't teach eternal security, even though I've asked you to.

Disconnected from Him -

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

Oh, so the word 'depart' means 'disconnected', huh. Let's consider the prodigal son. He departed from his father, yet he REMAINED a son. That NEVER changed. And you've never shown that God sends believers who have been born again (so you can stop the example of where fallen angels are called "sons of God", since they have NEVER been born again) to the lake of fire.

Your attempt to compare angels to humans is no different than apples to oranges.

People that depart from Him, through becoming hardened by the deceitfulness of sin, are no longer a partaker of Christ.

To be a "partaker of Christ" is not about relationship. It's about fellowship. It's about sharing.

OSAS is no where to be found in the Bible.

I've proven it repeatedly.

 

[JLB]

Because it was a challenge to you to provide clear verses about loss of salvation. None of your responses include any Scripture that teaches loss of salvation.

Opinion.

Because it was a challenge to you to provide clear verses about loss of salvation. None of your responses include any Scripture that teaches loss of salvation.

Here is the scripture I posted. It seems you have degenerated into just simple denial of the truth that Jesus taught.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:2,5-6

In Christ = Eternal life.
No longer connected to Christ = thrown into the fire and burned.

He taught eternal security in John 10:28 and 29. God holds the believer in His hands. And Jesus said that believers WILL NEVER PERISH. That's very clear.

No scripture provided, only an opinion tagged with a Scripture reference.

What you haven't shown or proved is that anyone can be "disconnected from Christ". It's just your theory, and unsubstantiated at that.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:2


"Every branch in Me", is a reference to "people" who are in Christ.

"He" in the phrase "He takes away" is a reference to God.

"Takes away" means to remove.

These "branches", people who are "in Him" ie; connected to Him, are "taken away", removed, disconnected from Him.


JLB

 

[JLB]

To be a "partaker of Christ" is not about relationship. It's about fellowship. It's about sharing.

Your opinion ignores and disregards what the words of the scripture, so plainly say.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

Departing from the living God because of unbelief, is the very warning Paul gave in Romans 11.

Because of unbelief they were broken off...

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Romans 11:19-21


Departing from the living God, is to depart, disconnect, or be removed from the living God.

Depart - G 868 - Strongs -

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove

1. to excite to revolt
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
3. to go away, to depart from anyone
4. to desert, withdraw from one
5. to fall away, become faithless
6. to shun, flee from
7. to cease to vex one
8. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
9. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

Departing from the living God because of unbelief, that was brought about by the deceitfulness of sin.

...lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.

If a person has departed from the living God, then they have been disconnected from Him and the eternal life that comes from being connected to Him.

Eternal life is knowing God and Jesus Christ whom He sent. John 17:3



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

My action of believing in Christ does NOT in any way make me "responsible for my salvation".

Actually your 'action' of believing in Christ DOES make you responsible for your salvation. Not in that you somehow earn that salvation of your own goodness and righteousness, but in the fact that you received the gospel through God's gracious gift of faith.

Some people reject that gift of faith and choose to reject the gospel:

"10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son." (1 John 5:10 NASB)

Some people receive the gospel but later stop believing:

"13“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13 NASB)

Then there are those who hear the word, RETAIN IT (you know, 'hold fast' the word of the gospel), and produce it's fruit:

"15“But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance." (Luke 8:15 NASB)

Paul said you must be one of those who retains and holds fast the knowledge of the kingdom, bringing it to fruition, as a condition for being saved:

1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold and underline mine)

But you argue that this can't be true since this makes 'believing' the same kind of work that Paul says can't justify--a work born of self-righteous effort. You, along with multitudes in the church, have misunderstood Paul's argument against works as a way to be justified and have included believing the gospel in Paul's works that can't justify--the very thing he says a person can and must do to be justified. But you are going to insist that having to believe as a condition to be saved is somehow a work that can't justify? Utterly ridiculous.

God alone is responsible for saving those who believe.

Yes, but that does not mean, or have to mean, that people are released from the responsibility of receiving and believing the gospel....through God's gracious gift of faith, which, by the way, violates your insistence that by virtue of something being a gift it can not be revoked. The scriptures teach very clearly about those who believe the gospel (through the gracious gift of faith, for there is no other way to believe the gospel) but who then later don't have that gift. Your whole premise for defending OSAS--gifts are irrevocable and permanent--is horribly flawed and contradictory to plain scripture. The gift of faith being the gift that most easily illustrates the fact that one can lose a gift of God they once had.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Because it was a challenge to you to provide clear verses about loss of salvation. None of your responses include any Scripture that teaches loss of salvation."

Opinion.

If my post above is just an opinion, how come you've NEVER provided any clear verses that tell us that we can lose salvation. All of the verses you love to quote never even mention salvation or eternal life in them.

If there were any such verses, I'm quite sure they would have been quoted by now. But all you've done is repeatedly quote verses and without any exegesis or explanation of how they refer to loss of salvation.

Here is the scripture I posted. It seems you have degenerated into just simple denial of the truth that Jesus taught.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:2,5-6

In Christ = Eternal life.
No longer connected to Christ = thrown into the fire and burned.

We've already been over your failure to show any evidence of anyone ever being 'disconnected' from Christ.

In fact, the Bible totally refutes that opinion in Eph 1:13,14 and 4:30 -
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

I find v.30 quite informative. Even if a believer does grieve the Holy Spirit, we are STILL SEALED by Him for the day of redemption.

I do hope you understand what redemption is about, right?

Now, beyond being sealed for the day of redemption, without ANY exceptions noted, let's not deny all that Jesus taught.

28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Who are the "them" in v.28? His sheep. Who are His sheep? Those who have believed in Him. Note the LACK of exception in what Jesus said in v.28. "they WILL NEVER PERISH". Believers will never perish.

But your view is that believers CAN perish if they stop believing. That is in direct conflict with the promise here that Jesus makes. I believe the promise that Jesus makes. Those who have believed WILL NEVER PERISH.

No scripture provided, only an opinion tagged with a Scripture reference.

It seems very odd that one would make such a claim when a Scripture reference is tagged. That is a provision of Scripture. When you do the same thing (tag a reference), I quote the verse AND then exegete it to show that it doesn't say what you are claiming it says. Unlike your ignoring of my references.

However, I have quoted a number of verses in this post, which to this point, you've never bothered to exegete or explain HOW they don't relate to or teach eternal security.

What Jesus said in John 10 is very clear; believers WILL NEVER PERISH. Why? Because He gives them ETERNAL LIFE is why. And we know from Paul's letter to the Romans that eternal life is a gift of God, and God's gifts are irrevocable.

You were unable to prove that "not regretted of" doesn't mean "revocable", so the word "irrevocable" stands as translated by those way more qualified to translate from the Greek to English.

You've not shown that Rom 11:29 isn't about eternal life being irrevocable.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:2

He certainly removes from service. But why would you or anyone else think that the Bible is contradicted? If John 15:2 means what you keep thinking it means, then Jesus was totally internally contradicted. I would reject such an idea.

"Every branch in Me", is a reference to "people" who are in Christ.

"He" in the phrase "He takes away" is a reference to God.

"Takes away" means to remove.

The question would be "removes from WHAT? And I don't see any reference to salvation anywhere in the context.

These "branches", people who are "in Him" ie; connected to Him, are "taken away", removed, disconnected from Him.

Just more unsubstantiated opinion.

If it does mean to be disconnected from Christ, then Jesus Himself contradicted Himself. Do you really want to argue for that heresy?

If you want to quote Jesus, let's consider ALL that He said. Not just cherry pick a few verses that you think suit your view and reject or ignore other verses that clearly REFUTE your view.

All believers have been given eternal life. Jn 5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

But your view rejects these words of Jesus. You claim one can lose eternal life. That's impossible based on what Jesus very plainly said.

What does "NEVER perish" mean to you? Apparently not very much. You believe that believers can perish.

I find that amazing.

 

[FreeGrace]

Your opinion ignores and disregards what the words of the scripture, so plainly say.

Here is what I said. Now, please prove your claim that I have ignored or disregarded the words of Scripture:

"In fact, the Bible totally refutes that opinion in Eph 1:13,14 and 4:30 -
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

I find v.30 quite informative. Even if a believer does grieve the Holy Spirit, we are STILL SEALED by Him for the day of redemption.

I do hope you understand what redemption is about, right?

Now, beyond being sealed for the day of redemption, without ANY exceptions noted, let's not deny all that Jesus taught.

28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Who are the "them" in v.28? His sheep. Who are His sheep? Those who have believed in Him. Note the LACK of exception in what Jesus said in v.28. "they WILL NEVER PERISH". Believers will never perish.

But your view is that believers CAN perish if they stop believing. That is in direct conflict with the promise here that Jesus makes. I believe the promise that Jesus makes. Those who have believed WILL NEVER PERISH."

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

Departing from the living God because of unbelief, is the very warning Paul gave in Romans 11.

Because of unbelief they were broken off...

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Romans 11:19-21


Departing from the living God, is to depart, disconnect, or be removed from the living God.

Depart - G 868 - Strongs -

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove

1. to excite to revolt
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
3. to go away, to depart from anyone
4. to desert, withdraw from one
5. to fall away, become faithless
6. to shun, flee from
7. to cease to vex one
8. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
9. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

Departing from the living God because of unbelief, that was brought about by the deceitfulness of sin.

...lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.

If a person has departed from the living God, then they have been disconnected from Him and the eternal life that comes from being connected to Him.

If any of these verses teach loss of salvation (eternal life), then Jesus has lied to us. Is that your opinion? Is that what you keep arguing for? That Jesus has lied to us.

Eternal life is knowing God and Jesus Christ whom He sent. John 17:3JLB

It's more than knowledge. It's a free gift (Rom 6:23). It's also irrevocable (Rom 11:29). Yes, I've tagged them, but I've also quoted them so many times, I'm real sure you and everyone else who may be following this thread knows them by heart.

And if those 2 verses aren't related and 11:29 doesn't teach eternal security, you need to prove why they don't.

 

[FreeGrace]

Actually your 'action' of believing in Christ DOES make you responsible for your salvation. Not in that you somehow earn that salvation of your own goodness and righteousness, but in the fact that you received the gospel through God's gracious gift of faith.

None of this supports your claim that my action of believing makes me responsible for my salvation. Unless your opinion can be backed up with Scripture, it remains just that; an opinion.

In fact, salvation is God's plan, from start to finish. He is solely responsible. It's His gift to impart. It's His decision to save. All we can to is receive the gift. Receiving a gift does NOT make one responsible for having the gift. The gift giver is ALWAYS the one responsible for the giftee's receiving of the gift.

Without a giver, there can be no giftee.

Some people reject that gift of faith and choose to reject the gospel:

And they will end up in the lake of fire.

Some people receive the gospel but later stop believing:

"13“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13 NASB)

Then there are those who hear the word, RETAIN IT (you know, 'hold fast' the word of the gospel), and produce it's fruit:

Now you're just mixing apples and oranges. Getting saved and producing fruit are 2 separate issues. Totally separate.

Paul said you must be one of those who retains and holds fast the knowledge of the kingdom, bringing it to fruition, as a condition for being saved:

1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold and underline mine)

To "hold fast" has nothing to do with effort. It means "possesses". Once one believe, they possess the gospel.

Remember what Jesus said about who holds whom in John 10:28,29 -
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Do you believe this promise of Jesus? He gives eternal life to believers (His sheep) and they will NEVER perish. I do believe that. Those who reject eternal security disrespect Jesus and His promise.

You do know that to "never perish" is a very long time, right? It's actually an eternity. Why? Because believers have been given ETERNAL life. That means they will live for an eternity with God. They will NEVER PERISH.

But you argue that this can't be true since this makes 'believing' the same kind of work that Paul says can't justify--a work born of self-righteous effort.

Believing is not a work. I've never argued for that. Paul contrasted faith with works in Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9.

You, along with multitudes in the church, have misunderstood Paul's argument against works as a way to be justified and have included believing the gospel in Paul's works that can't justify--

the very thing he says a person can and must do to be justified. But you are going to insist that having to believe as a condition to be saved is somehow a work that can't justify? Utterly ridiculous.

I have no idea what your point is here. I've NEVER argued that faith is a work at any time.

Paul taught very clearly that justification is based on faith (Rom 4-5:1).

 

[smaller]

The issues of these matters usually revolve around the faith of the person.

IS that the faith being spoken of here?

Ephesians 4:5
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

2 Thessalonians 3:3
But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

2 Timothy 2:13
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

1 Corinthians 2:5
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

1 John 5:
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1 Thessalonians 5:24
Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.