If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

[JLB]

Here is what I said. Now, please prove your claim that I have ignored or disregarded the words of Scripture:

You have failed to address the plain and clear words from Jesus.

Here they are again.


Here is what Jesus said about being saved.


11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12-13


Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, have become un-believers!

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

again

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6-7


People who believe for a while or abide for a while, and are no longer IN HIM, no longer have eternal life.


So far you have not addressed these scriptures or what they say, and for good reason, because these words of truth completely destroy your man-made, man-conceived doctrine, that is built upon the shifting sands of man's post-modern thought.


From Paul we here the same phrase with the same warning.


12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

Departing from the living God because of unbelief, is the very warning Paul gave in Romans 11.

Because of unbelief they were broken off...

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said.Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Romans 11:19-21


Departing from the living God, is to depart, disconnect, or be removed from the living God.

Depart - G 868 - Strongs -

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove

1. to excite to revolt
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
3. to go away, to depart from anyone
4. to desert, withdraw from one
5. to fall away, become faithless
6. to shun, flee from
7. to cease to vex one
8. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
9. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

Departing from the living God because of unbelief, that was brought about by the deceitfulness of sin.

...lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.

If a person has departed from the living God, then they have been disconnected from Him and the eternal life that comes from being connected to Him.

You have yet to provide any scripture that says those who were "broken off" from Him, or removed from Him, or have become disconnect from Him, are still saved, or still somehow have eternal life.


37 “For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition [utter destruction], but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
Hebrews 10:37-39



JLB

 

[JLB]

None of this supports your claim that my action of believing makes me responsible for my salvation. Unless your opinion can be backed up with Scripture, it remains just that; an opinion.

In fact, salvation is God's plan, from start to finish. He is solely responsible. It's His gift to impart. It's His decision to save. All we can to is receive the gift. Receiving a gift does NOT make one responsible for having the gift. The gift giver is ALWAYS the one responsible for the giftee's receiving of the gift.

Without a giver, there can be no giftee.

Absolute groundless opinion with no scripture.


“Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:11


The gift that is given is the faith that comes by hear the word, which is a seed.

This gift was given to these and went into heart, and was received.

At this point God has given the gift.


The person is responsible for doing the work of believing in order to be saved... lest they should believe and be saved.


You just made Jethro's point!


“This is the work of God, that you believe... John 6:29



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

You have failed to address the plain and clear words from Jesus.

I have shown Jesus' own words that you continue to ignore or reject. I don't know which. Regardless, if the words you like to quote mean what you think and claim they mean, then He has contradicted Himself because of the very clear words that I have provided that He said.

John 10:28,29 - 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

How do you explain that those who have eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH? Please answer.

People who believe for a while or abide for a while, and are no longer IN HIM, no longer have eternal life.

It is NOT possible for any believer who has been sealed with the Holy Spirit to "no longer" be IN HIM. That is just your unsubstantiated opinion, based on no exegesis whatsoever.

Eph 1;13,14, 4:30 refutes your opinion.
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

You continue to ignore these verses, because they refute your opinion other verses that you think teach loss of salvation.

Paul was clear: when one believes, they are marked IN HIM with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, sealed for the day of redemption. We all know what "redemption" means, and the seal if FOR that day. Not a minute sooner.

So, there is NO REASON to assume that this seal can be broken.

So far you have not addressed these scriptures or what they say, and for good reason, because these words of truth completely destroy your man-made, man-conceived doctrine, that is built upon the shifting sands of man's post-modern thought.

Since I have actually addressed ALL of the verses you have quoted, I have to think at this point that you are well aware of the total untruth of what you claim here.

And why have you NOT bothered to address the verses that I have provided that are FAR MORE clear about dealing with the issue of eternal security than your verses that aren't at all clear about your so-called loss of salvation view.

From Paul we here the same phrase with the same warning.

Paul described eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23, and taught that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29. He was clear about eternal security.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

Where are the words "salvation", "loss of salvation", or "loss of eternal life" anywhere in this passage?

Departing from the living God because of unbelief, is the very warning Paul gave in Romans 11.

God doesn't want any of His children to depart from Him. Of course. That is quite obvious. But NO WHERE in Scripture does anyone find the teaching that doing so results in loss of salvation.

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove

1. to excite to revolt
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
3. to go away, to depart from anyone
4. to desert, withdraw from one
5. to fall away, become faithless
6. to shun, flee from
7. to cease to vex one
8. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
9. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

Why would anyone assume from these possible usages that salvation can be lost????

You have yet to provide any scripture that says those who were "broken off" from Him, or removed from Him, or have become disconnect from Him, are still saved, or still somehow have eternal life.

Let's be clear. You have failed to prove that being "broken off" means loss of salvation.

And I've shown FROM SCRIPTURE that the gift of eternal life is irrevocable (Rom 6:23-11:29). That those to whom Jesus gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Rom 10:28). And that when one believes in Christ, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit FOR the day of redemption (Eph 1:13, 4:30).

These verses are irrefutable, yet you continue to dodge them. Because they refute you. And prove that the verses you love to quote cannot mean what you think they mean. Not even close.

 

[FreeGrace]

Absolute groundless opinion with no scripture.

You are free to make up your own opinion.

“Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:11

The gift that is given is the faith that comes by hear the word, which is a seed.

There is NO MENTION of "gift" in Jesus' parable. You've just made that little gem up.

This gift was given to these and went into heart, and was received.

There was no gift in this parable.

At this point God has given the gift.

There is no gift in this parable.

The person is responsible for doing the work of believing in order to be saved... lest they should believe and be saved.

The parable does NOT say that believing is a work. Nor does the Bible. As Jesus would say to the Sadducees; you are badly mistaken.

You just made Jethro's point!
“This is the work of God, that you believe... John 6:29

You're going to have to explain how I did. That is quite preposterous.

However, given the orientation of those Jesus was talking to, He was speaking tongue-in-cheek when He used the word "work".

However, let's look at the context for His words:

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Jn 6:28

They thought (erroneously) that God required "works" to be saved, or to receive eternal life.

So Jesus used their own words to answer their question.

Paul very clearly distinguished between faith and works in 2 places:
4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.
5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. Rom 4:4,5
And,
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift ofGod—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast. Eph 2:8,9

These 2 passages are crystal clear about the DIFFERENCE between faith and works. We are saved by faith, not by works. It couldn't be stated any more clearly than how Paul stated it.

If faith was a work, then these 2 passages are just plain babbling nonsense.

 

[reba]

We have all the Scripture to draw on.. Taking into account the whole of scripture can change much in the way we 'hear' His Word'
Scripture was not written in Chapter and verse...

 

[FreeGrace]

We have all the Scripture to draw on.. Taking into account the whole of scripture can change much in the way we 'hear' His Word'
Scripture was not written in Chapter and verse...

Would it be prudent to think that Jesus ever contradicted Himself?

 

[JLB]

You're going to have to explain how I did. That is quite preposterous.

However, given the orientation of those Jesus was talking to, He was speaking tongue-in-cheek when He used the word "work".

However, let's look at the context for His words:

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Jn 6:28

They thought (erroneously) that God required "works" to be saved, or to receive eternal life.

So Jesus used their own words to answer their question.

Paul very clearly distinguished between faith and works in 2 places:
4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.
5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. Rom 4:4,5
And,
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift ofGod—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast. Eph 2:8,9

These 2 passages are crystal clear about the DIFFERENCE between faith and works. We are saved by faith, not by works. It couldn't be stated any more clearly than how Paul stated it.

If faith was a work, then these 2 passages are just plain babbling nonsense.

A plain and clear statement from Jesus Christ -

“This is the work of God, that you believe... John 6:29

If faith was a work, then these 2 passages are just plain babbling nonsense.

“This is the work of God, that you believe... John 6:29

Obeying the Gospel is Repenting, by confessing Jesus Christ as Lord.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10


JLB

 

[JLB]

I have shown Jesus' own words that you continue to ignore or reject. I don't know which. Regardless, if the words you like to quote mean what you think and claim they mean, then He has contradicted Himself because of the very clear words that I have provided that He said.

Jesus never contradicted Himself.

John 10:28,29 - 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

How do you explain that those who have eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH? Please answer.

The context of verse 28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;, is a direct reference to His disciples.

Jesus is referring to His Sheep that none would be lost.

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”
John 10:26-30


Jesus just got through saying in verse 16 that He has other Sheep not of this fold.

By saying He has "other sheep", He is indicating that the sheep He is referring to are His disciples.

as He goes on to say in John 17 - none of them was lost...except. The exception was Judas Iscariot.

While I was with them in the world,I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12


The context in which Jesus said... I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand... is a reference to His disciples, of which He lost none of them, except Judas.

You have taken this verse out of it's context, and applied it to everyone, when it was a reference to those that Jesus Christ Himself personally discipled while He was on this earth in the flesh.



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Taking into account the whole of scripture

Which I have found is probably the single most important key to discerning the truth. I've noticed that false doctrines, particularly in the cults, ignore some essential piece of scripture along the way. Often just a single piece of scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

A plain and clear statement from Jesus Christ -

“This is the work of God, that you believe... John 6:29

Also very plain words of Jesus in John 10:28 - those He gives eternal life to WILL NEVER PERISH. But your posts indicate that you don't believe that. So you've rejected those words of Jesus.

You believe that salvation can be lost, that eternal life can be revoked. That those who have been given eternal life MAY perish if they don't continuing to do the right things.

Yet, in John 10:28, Jesus gave NO caveats or exceptions to His statement.

So, what Jesus said in John 10:28 is no different than what Paul wrote in Romans: eternal life is a gift of God, and God's gifts are irrevocable. Meaning, of course, that those who have received eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

That is a guarantee from Jesus Christ Himself. Those who call themselves Christians should not reject what Jesus said.

 

[FreeGrace]

Jesus never contradicted Himself.

Yes, that is my point. Which means that what He said in John 10:28 refutes your opinions regarding eternal security.

The context of verse 28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;, is a direct reference to His disciples.

Stunningly incorrect. The context is His sheep in contrast to those who are not His sheep. He gives eternal life to His sheep.

Jesus is referring to His Sheep that none would be lost.

I recommend that you at least first read the passage before making such mistakes about the passage.

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”
John 10:26-30

Yes, there it is, plain as day. He gives eternal life to His sheep. And in the previous chapter, He tells us that those who have believed in Him HAVE eternal life. So that's who He gives eternal life to: believers. And they WILL NEVER PERISH.

And Jesus didn't add any conditions, caveats, or exceptions to that statement. Those who have believed HAVE eternal life and WILL NEVER PERISH.

The only condition for NEVER PERISHING is to have eternal life.

Jesus just got through saying in verse 16 that He has other Sheep not of this fold.

By saying He has "other sheep", He is indicating that the sheep He is referring to are His disciples.

No, the "other sheep" is a reference to Gentile believers.

as He goes on to say in John 17 - none of them was lost...except. The exception was Judas Iscariot.

John 17 is NOT in context with John 10. And because of what Jesus said in 10:28, it should be obvious to everyone that Judas NEVER received eternal life.

If he did, then Jesus would be a liar. Is that your position? It would seem so.

You have taken this verse out of it's context, and applied it to everyone, when it was a reference to those that Jesus Christ Himself personally discipled while He was on this earth in the flesh.

Because what Jesus said in John 10 does apply to everyone. Your claim has not been proven or supported by Scripture.

You want context for 10:28? Just read 10:9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.

The "gate" here is the sheep gate. To be saved, one must enter through Jesus Himself. So the entire chapter is about everyone, not just His disciples. I cannot imagine how anyone could ever come up with that conclusion.

In fact, the word "disciples" doesn't even occur in the chapter. It's all about His sheep vs those who are not His sheep. And He specifically said He would lay down His life for THE sheep, meaning all of mankind. Not just His disciples.

So if you want to argue that 10:28 refers only to His disciples, then He died only for His disciples. That is quite an untenable position to argue for.

 

[FreeGrace]

Which I have found is probably the single most important key to discerning the truth. I've noticed that false doctrines, particularly in the cults, ignore some essential piece of scripture along the way. Often just a single piece of scripture.

Do you believe what Jesus said about those He has given eternal life to; that they WILL NEVER PERISH? Jn 10:28

 

[JLB]

Also very plain words of Jesus in John 10:28 - those He gives eternal life to WILL NEVER PERISH. But your posts indicate that you don't believe that. So you've rejected those words of Jesus.

By you "cherry picking" a few words of the Lord Jesus, and misapplying them out of context, it becomes clear why you won't post the scripture and what is says, much less the surrounding scriptures for context. Rather you just state your opinion and tag it with a scripture reference.


22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch. 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

• The setting of the context: The Temple in Jerusalem; specifically Solomon's porch.

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

• The people of the context He was addressing: The Jews who questioned Him in Solomon's porch. Jesus plainly said to them that they were not of His sheep, because they did not believe in Him, nor the works He did in His Father's name.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

• The sheep in this context: Jesus refers to His sheep as those who hear is voice and follow Him.

The word follow refers to one who is physically present and accompany's one as a disciple.

Follow - Strongs G190 - akoloutheō

1. to follow one who precedes, join him as his attendant, accompany him
2. to join one as a disciple, become or be his disciple
   1. side with his party

Furthermore it was the disciples that were given to Him by God the Father.

12 While I was with them in the world,I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12



JLB

 

[JLB]

So if you want to argue that 10:28 refers only to His disciples, then He died only for His disciples. That is quite an untenable position to argue for.

Jesus died for the World.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Everlasting life is promised to those who believe in Him.


Jesus also said: “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? Luke 6:46


Things Jesus also said:

• 14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Matthew 6:14-15

• 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.” Matthew 18:31-35

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you believe what Jesus said about those He has given eternal life to; that they WILL NEVER PERISH? Jn 10:28

I believe that every believer has eternal life. What I don't agree with is your assertion that an unbeliever can have eternal life. As long as a person continues in their faith they are precisely the believer that Jesus said can not perish. Stop believing and you will perish along with all the other unbelievers (Hebrews 10:29 NASB).

 

[FreeGrace]

I believe that every believer has eternal life.

But from your earlier posts, you believe that those who HAVE eternal life may still end up in hell. Which is in total disagreement with what Jesus said in John 10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

What does Jesus give to those who believe in Him? Eternal life.

What is the result of those who HAVE eternal life? They will never perish.

This is quite simple and straight forward.

What I don't agree with is your assertion that an unbeliever can have eternal life.

I've never asserted that, ever. No unbeliever has EVER had eternal life. I'm NOT talking about those who NEVER believed and therefore, NEVER received eternal life.

What you believe, which totally contradicts what Jesus said, is that those who have received eternal life may perish anyway. If they no longer believe. Which you erroneously call becoming an "unbeliever".

Here's the problem with your view.
1. There are NO Scriptures that teach that if one ceases to believe, they cease to be saved. Or they lose eternal life. Or any such wording to indicate that they will end up perishing.

If someone can provide verses that teach that idea, I will of course believe it. But not until then.

2. Eternal life is possessed WHEN one believes.
John 3:16 - “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life This is a promise to those who have believed: they "shall not perish"
John 5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

What is the condition for being one of Jesus' sheep? John 10:9 tells us: “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."

Notice that Jesus didn't add conditions, such as any kind of works, or perseverance. Just enter through Him. Which means, of course, by faith in Him. As many other verses teach.

iow, to those who have been given eternal life, which is those who have believed, Jesus PROMISES that "they will never perish". It couldn't be more clear.

Where are the verses that tell us that one will lose eternal life or perish if they stop believing? They don't exist.

As long as a person continues in their faith they are precisely the believer that Jesus said can not perish. Stop believing and you will perish along with all the other unbelievers (Hebrews 10:29 NASB).

Prove your theory with Scripture that actually says what you believe.

I claim they don't exist, because they don't exist.

 

[JLB]

John 5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Would it be accurate to assume that you understand what the word "has" means?

Eternal Life is knowing God.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
John 17:3

As long as this relationship is in place, then eternal life is as well.

If by some chance a person is disconnected from this relationship with Jesus Christ, then they no longer "have" eternal Life, according to the definition Jesus gave us in John 17:3.

Those who fell into unbelief were broken off from relationship with Him.


JLB

 

[JLB]

What does Jesus give to those who believe in Him? Eternal life.

What is the result of those who HAVE eternal life? They will never perish.

This is quite simple and straight forward.

Those who believe have eternal life.

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe....
No longer believe!

If they no longer believe, then they are not believers.

Only believers have eternal life.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Those who believe have eternal life.

And Jesus promised that "they will NEVER perish", which you don't believe. But Jesus said anyway.

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe....
No longer believe!

If they no longer believe, then they are not believers.

Only believers have eternal life.

Your theory breaks down completely by the total LACK of verses that agree with your claim.

What verse warns that if one ceases to believe, they cease to be saved, or cease to have eternal life?

None warn of such a thing.

Scripture teaches that one HAS eternal life WHEN one believes: John 3:16 and 5:24. And those to whom Jesus gives eternal life (which would be those who have believed), He promises that THEY WILL NEVER PERISH.

Your theory is contradicted by the promise of Jesus.

I cannot imagine why anyone claiming to be a Christian would even want to argue against what Jesus said clearly.

 

[JLB]

Here is what I posted:

Believers have eternal life.

To which you answered with the following statement...

And Jesus promised that "they will NEVER perish", which you don't believe. But Jesus said anyway.

It is believers that have eternal life... and so having eternal life, they will never perish.

On this point I think we all agree.


The points where we seem to disagree:

• What eternal life is?
• Can a believer stop believing?
• What believing means... from the original language.

Question # 1

If a believer stops believing, are they still a believer?




JLB