If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

[FreeGrace]

Those who believe have eternal life.
Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe....
No longer believe!
If they no longer believe, then they are not believers.

When someone can prove this theory from Scripture I'll believe it.

Only believers have eternal life.
JLB

Yes. And Jesus told us WHEN believers have eternal life; WHEN they believe: Jn 5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

And Jesus promised that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. Jn 10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Did you notice that Jesus didn't provide any exceptions or caveats regarding His promise.

It doesn't matter if one ceases to believe. They HAVE eternal life WHEN they believe, and those who have eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

[Deleted statement for trolling! I will not warn again. WIP]

 

[FreeGrace]

Here is what I posted:
Believers have eternal life.
To which you answered with the following statement...
It is believers that have eternal life... and so having eternal life, they will never perish.
On this point I think we all agree.

The point you continue to miss is that one HAS eternal life WHEN one believes, per Jn 5:24. And Jesus said that those to whom He has given eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. You do know what a promise is, right? And Jesus has promised that those to whom He has given eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

I keep repeating this in order that maybe somehow and some way it will begin to actually sink in.

The points where we seem to disagree:

What eternal life is?
Can a believer stop believing?
What believing means... from the original language.

Eternal life is God's life. He is eternal. And He gives us His life. It's obviously more than just the single verse you love to quote about EL being "knowing God".

Yes, a believer can stop believing. Jesus clearly said so in Luke 8:13.
Believing means to entrust one's soul to Christ for salvation.

Question # 1

If a believer stops believing, are they still a believer?

Such silly word games don't work. Here's why. When a person believes, they become a new creature, born again, HAVE BEEN forgiven, HAVE BEEN justified, HAVE eternal life. And there are NO verses that teach that any of these things can be removed, taken away, lost, forfeited, or any other silly word that anyone may come up with.

Jesus was clear about when one HAS eternal life: when they believe, per Jn 5:24. And Jesus was clear about the FACT that those to whom He has given eternal life (when they believe), they will never perish.

But your view directly contradicts the words of Jesus. Your view is that if one ceases to believe, they lose eternal life.

So, where in the Bible is that claim found? Where?

{hint} it's not found in the Bible.

Jesus promises that those who possess eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. And we know that one receives eternal life WHEN they believe. So AT THE POINT OF FAITH IN CHRIST, the saved person WILL NEVER PERISH.

I know that you disagree, in spite of what Jesus clearly said. Nevertheless, please take the above statement and refute it from Scripture.

Just note this: [Using the Bible to whip your opponent? Debate in good faith. WIP]
Good luck.

 

[JLB]

Such silly word games don't work. Here's why. When a person believes, they become a new creature, born again, HAVE BEEN forgiven, HAVE BEEN justified, HAVE eternal life. And there are NO verses that teach that any of these things can be removed, taken away, lost, forfeited, or any other silly word that anyone may come up with.

Jesus was clear about when one HAS eternal life: when they believe, per Jn 5:24. And Jesus was clear about the FACT that those to whom He has given eternal life (when they believe), they will never perish.

But your view directly contradicts the words of Jesus. Your view is that if one ceases to believe, they lose eternal life.

So, where in the Bible is that claim found? Where?

{hint} it's not found in the Bible.

Jesus promises that those who possess eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. And we know that one receives eternal life WHEN they believe. So AT THE POINT OF FAITH IN CHRIST, the saved person WILL NEVER PERISH.

I know that you disagree, in spite of what Jesus clearly said. Nevertheless, please take the above statement and refute it from Scripture.

Just note this: if there are any verses that can refute my statement, you will have just proved that the Bible can't be trusted and that Jesus has lied to us.

Good luck.

If a believer stops believing, are they still a believer?



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The point you continue to miss is that one HAS eternal life WHEN one believes, per Jn 5:24.

Yes, John meant exactly that when he said...

"24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24 NASB)

But he also meant exactly what he said when he said this...

"...let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life." (1 John 2:24-25 NASB)

The condition for keeping the eternal life you received when you believed is that what you heard from the beginning has to abide in you. Paul said the same thing when he said this...

"...the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthian 15:1-2 NASB)

They both say you can not cast what you have heard and believed behind you and still have the eternal life you received when you first believed. Unbelievers simply do not enter into eternal life at death. Eternal life is contingent on continuing in to the very end that which you heard and believed in the beginning.

 

[FreeGrace]

If a believer stops believing, are they still a believer?
JLB

Your question is irrelevant. Yes, believers may stop believing. But, so what? Please show any Scripture that warns that if one stops believing, they:
1. stop being a child of God
2. stop being justified
3. stop being saved
4. stop being born again
5. stop having eternal life

All you've got is a huge assumption; one that is not supported by any Scripture.

Jesus told us that WHEN one believes, they HAVE eternal life in Jn 5:24. And He told us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

I'm just amazed that you've rejected His clear words. Jesus didn't give ANY exceptions to His promise. If your theory were true, He would have said something about having to continue to believe in order to continue to have eternal life.

Or verses that teach that eternal life can be taken away.

But none exist. Your view deals in assumptions and opinions. My view deals solely with what Jesus said and promised.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes, John meant exactly that when he said...

"24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24 NASB)

But he also meant exactly what he said when he said this...

"...let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life." (1 John 2:24-25 NASB)

The condition for keeping the eternal life you received when you believed is that what you heard from the beginning has to abide in you. Paul said the same thing when he said this…

Why are you not willing to consider that the word "abide" is in reference to having fellowship with Him? John began his epistle with an emphasis on fellowship with the Father and Son.

Jesus even gave us a perfect example of the difference between fellowship and relationship when He gave the parable of the prodigal son. Throughout the parable the son REMAINED a son, but he ceased to ABIDE with the father. When he came to his senses, he confessed his sin and repented (returned to his father), who met him with love and grace and forgiveness.

The "deadness" that the father described was in reference to his son's break in fellowship, not relationship. That never changed for the son continued to be a son, and the father continued to be a father. What "died" was fellowship between the 2.

If my views here are incorrect, please provide a thorough explanation of why it is incorrect.

"...the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthian 15:1-2 NASB)

They both say you can not cast what you have heard and believed behind you and still have the eternal life you received when you first believed.

That is what you are assuming. Neither of them SAY that. In fact, neither even mention eternal life as what can be lost.

Unbelievers simply do not enter into eternal life at death. Eternal life is contingent on continuing in to the very end that which you heard and believed in the beginning.

Then you don't believe what Jesus taught in John 5:24, when He said that those who believe HAVE eternal life:
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Please explain why you have rejected His clear words. I cannot imagine why anyone would.

The free gift of eternal life is given WHEN one believes. Jesus said so.

I am making the assumption that you do understand what the "present tense" means. Have I over-assumed?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Then you don't believe what Jesus taught in John 5:24, when He said that those who believe HAVE eternal life:
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Please explain why you have rejected His clear words. I cannot imagine why anyone would.

The free gift of eternal life is given WHEN one believes. Jesus said so.

I made it clear that the person who has believed has eternal life, right now. That is not in contention. The contention is that eternal life can be lost through a subsequent unbelief.

It's interesting that 'eternal life' in your doctrine means fellowship with God in passages about being cut off from God, but then suddenly means salvation in the passages about possessing it forever. That duplicity is unacceptable. You can't have it both ways. You can't suddenly change the definition of eternal life to get around the passages that explain the 'if' attached to salvation/eternal life.

I am making the assumption that you do understand what the "present tense" means. Have I over-assumed?

I understand it very well. It's the person who is 'believing', not the person who 'used to believe' that has eternal life. Believing is the condition for entering into salvation. Unbelievers are not going to be saved as you are trying to insist.

From http://ezraproject.com/id27.html

"The Greek present tense indicates continued action, something that happens continually or repeatedly, or something that is in the process of happening. If you say, for instance, "The sun is rising," you are talking about a process happening over a period of time, not an instantaneous event. The Greeks use the present tense to express this kind of continued action."​

Even in the following passage that you isolate all by itself to show that there is no condition of continued believing on having eternal life the word 'believing' is in the present tense and signifies continued believing, not one time, past believing, and it certainly in no way suggests a cessation of believing as you insist it can:

"24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24 NASB bold mine)

The "deadness" that the father described was in reference to his son's break in fellowship, not relationship. That never changed for the son continued to be a son, and the father continued to be a father. What "died" was fellowship between the 2.

If my views here are incorrect, please provide a thorough explanation of why it is incorrect.

The parable is about the Jews. The son who returns is representative of Isreal. Any Isrealite who left God was indeed very lost. They did not remain saved while living in their rebellion. The 'sons' of Isreal that will one day return to the Father are another generation of the 'sons of God', not the same ones who were cut off centuries ago.

 

[JLB]

Your question is irrelevant. Yes, believers may stop believing.

I've tried to address the points where we disagree, and to understand where your coming from.

Maybe if you would clarify, as to why by answering a simple question.


If a believer stops believing, are they still a believer?

If a believer no longer believe's, do you still consider them to be a believer?


JLB

 

[smaller]

Question # 1
If a believer stops believing, are they still a believer?
JLB

Every person of Israel that came out of Egypt over the age of 20 except for 2 DIED because of unbelief.

Yet, they were saved. Mark 9:4, Romans 11:25-32.

Jude 1:5
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Unbelief did not condemn any of them except to the death of their flesh, their temporal life.

 

[smaller]

There are causes of (various forms of) unbelief that are NOT the fault of the person.

Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 3:14, 2 Cor. 4:4.

Not seeing and understanding the above scriptures are ALSO manners of unbelief.

 

[smaller]

The parable is about the Jews. The son who returns is representative of Isreal. Any Isrealite who left God was indeed very lost. They did not remain saved while living in their rebellion. The 'sons' of Isreal that will one day return to the Father are another generation of the 'sons of God', not the same ones who were cut off centuries ago.

That is patently FALSE. Here is how God Himself sees them:

Numbers 23:21
He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: the Lord his God is with him, and the shout of a king is among them.

Balaam TRIED vainly to curse them, but could not.

Numbers 23:
11 And Balak said unto Balaam, What hast thou done unto me? I took thee to curse mine enemies, and, behold, thou hast blessed them altogether.

Paul was abundantly clear that God has NOT abandoned Israel. No, not even for unbelief. Romans 11:1-2

God in Christ PLANNED their fall into unbelief precisely, in our behalves. Romans 11:12 Romans 11:15

 

[JLB]

Every person of Israel that came out of Egypt over the age of 20 except for 2 DIED because of unbelief.

Yet, they were saved. Mark 9:4, Romans 11:25-32.

Jude 1:5
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Unbelief did not condemn any of them except to the death of their flesh, their temporal life.

They were saved, but then were destroyed by being cast alive down to hell.

33 So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly. Numbers 16:33


JLB

 

[smaller]

They were saved, but then were destroyed by being cast alive down to hell.

Both Moses and Aaron did not enter the promised land because of unbelief. They died in the wilderness just like all the others.

Numbers 20:12
And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

Are they in hell? Uh, no. Other than in people's imaginations.

 

[FreeGrace]

I made it clear that the person who has believed has eternal life, right now. That is not in contention. The contention is that eternal life can be lost through a subsequent unbelief.

I see no "contention" because there are NO verses that say such a thing. None at all.

And if there were any such verses, then what Jesus said in John 10:28 would be a lie. Is that your argument? Because He SAID that those to whom He gives eternal life (and we know that is WHEN they believe), He promises that they WILL NEVER PERISH.

But your claim is that IF a believer ceases to believe, they lose eternal life, which goes directly AGAINST what Jesus has promised to those who have believed in Him.

It's interesting that 'eternal life' in your doctrine means fellowship with God in passages about being cut off from God, but then suddenly means salvation in the passages about possessing it forever.

I've NEVER said what you are claiming here. I AM claiming that the word "abide" refers to fellowship, not relationship.

Do you understand the difference or not? If not, there is no use for more discussion. It will be over your head.

That duplicity is unacceptable. You can't have it both ways. You can't suddenly change the definition of eternal life to get around the passages that explain the 'if' attached to salvation/eternal life.

And I've never done what you are claiming.

I understand it very well. It's the person who is 'believing', not the person who 'used to believe' that has eternal life.

So, I take this to mean that you have rejected what Jesus said about those to whom He gives eternal life; that they WILL NEVER PERISH.

Your view is that IF they cease to believe, they WILL PERISH.

So, how do you justify your direct contradiction with Jesus?

Believing is the condition for entering into salvation. Unbelievers are not going to be saved as you are trying to insist.

You seem to keep missing the point. When one believes, they HAVE eternal life. And those to whom Jesus gives eternal life (which is WHEN they believe - Jn 5:24) they WILL NEVER PERISH. From the moment they have believed and are saved, THEY WILL NEVER PERISH. That's what Jesus actually said.

From http://ezraproject.com/id27.html

"The Greek present tense indicates continued action, something that happens continually or repeatedly, or something that is in the process of happening. If you say, for instance, "The sun is rising," you are talking about a process happening over a period of time, not an instantaneous event. The Greeks use the present tense to express this kind of continued action."​

Even in the following passage that you isolate all by itself to show that there is no condition of continued believing on having eternal life the word 'believing' is in the present tense and signifies continued believing, not one time, past believing, and it certainly in no way suggests a cessation of believing as you insist it can:

"24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24 NASB bold mine)

Your argument is refuted by the FACT that Jesus used the present tense in Luke 8:13 when He described the 2nd soil as "believe for a while", proving that the present tense doesn't just continue indefinitely, as you keep presuming.

Further, Paul used the aorist tense in his answer to the jailer who asked him what he MUST DO to be saved.

So your analysis is flawed.

The parable is about the Jews. The son who returns is representative of Isreal. Any Isrealite who left God was indeed very lost. They did not remain saved while living in their rebellion. The 'sons' of Isreal that will one day return to the Father are another generation of the 'sons of God', not the same ones who were cut off centuries ago.

This is your opinion. And this doesn't in any way refute my explanation at all.

The father continued to be the father and the son continued to be the son. That NEVER changed.

What changed was the fellowship between them. It died, as the father noted. His son didn't literally die. The fellowship ceased to exist, which is why Jesus used the word "dead" in regard to his son. The fellowship died.

But the fellowship was RESTORED when the son returned to the father.

The parable is a perfect analogy to the believer who gets out of fellowship and then returns to fellowship.

But as I just said, if you do not understand the difference between fellowship and relationship, further discussion along these lines will be fruitless. We'll just be talking over each other. I'm sorry.

 

[FreeGrace]

I've tried to address the points where we disagree, and to understand where your coming from.

Well, I've been clear enough. Why do you not understand? Do you understand the fact that Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life (Jn 10:28), which is WHEN they believe (Jn 5:24) they WILL NEVER PERISH?

Maybe if you would clarify, as to why by answering a simple question.
If a believer stops believing, are they still a believer?

I will NEVER call them an unbeliever for one very simple reason; they are now an apostate. Meaning, one who has changed their mind about what they used to believe.

And because at the moment one believes, many things occur in regard to the believer:

1. become a child of God
2. become justified
3. become saved
4. become born again
5. have eternal life

ONLY when one shows any verse that teaches that each or any of these 5 things can be reversed, cancelled, removed, or taken back will I ever believe that salvation can be lost.

If a believer no longer believe's, do you still consider them to be a believer?

As I said, they are:
1. they are STILL a child of God
2. they are STILL justified
3. they are STILL saved
4. they are STILL born again
5. they STILL have eternal life

Since there are NO verses that teach that any of these things can be lost, there is no reason to believe that they can be.

Plus, Jesus guarantees that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. I absolutely believe what He says. I advise all believers to believe that.

So, show me any verse that teaches that any of these things can be lost, reversed, cancelled, removed, or taken back.

If there are not any such verses, it is irrational and extremely non logical to believe that salvation can be lost.

 

[FreeGrace]

They were saved, but then were destroyed by being cast alive down to hell.

33 So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly. Numbers 16:33JLB

Apparently you have been unaware of the fact that before Christ died on the cross, ALL souls went to sheol. Some to "paradise" or "Abraham's bosom", and others to "torments".

Jesus told the story of Lazarus and a rich man. Both died and went to sheol. And the rich man had a conversation with Abraham about cooling his tongue (he was obviously in torments) and concern over his 5 brothers.

 

[JLB]

Apparently you have been unaware of the fact that before Christ died on the cross, ALL souls went to sheol. Some to "paradise" or "Abraham's bosom", and others to "torments".

Jesus told the story of Lazarus and a rich man. Both died and went to sheol. And the rich man had a conversation with Abraham about cooling his tongue (he was obviously in torments) and concern over his 5 brothers.

You err not knowing the word, because you choose to "redefine" what the scriptures actually say, so that the scriptures "align" with your doctrine rather than you aligning with what the scriptures teach.

Abraham and Lazarus were in "Abraham's Bosom" [Paradise] while the rich man was in hell [Hades].

Abraham's Bosom was separate from Sheol, as Sheol is the place of punishment for the ungodly, specifically it is where Lucifer [Satan] will end up, being separate from Abraham's Bosom.


12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.
Isaiah 14:12-15


Hebrew #7585 - sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit

1. the underworld
2. Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
   
   1. place of no return
   2. without praise of God
   3. wicked sent there for punishment
   4. righteous not abandoned to it
   5. of the place of exile (fig)
   6. of extreme degradation in sin
      

Sheol is the Hebrew word for hell, while Hades is the Greek word for hell.

22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom.
The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, [hell] he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Luke 16:22-23



JLB

 

[JLB]

As I said, they are:
1. they are STILL a child of God
2. they are STILL justified
3. they are STILL saved
4. they are STILL born again
5. they STILL have eternal life

No of these statements answer's the question.

If a believer no longer believe's, are they still believer?

This is classic "redefining" of biblical terms, so that those who no longer believe, are still somehow considered believers.

If you can show the scriptures whereby unbelievers have eternal life, even though Jesus plainly said -

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24


As long as the condition of present tense believing is met, then the present tense has eternal life remains in possession.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Both Moses and Aaron did not enter the promised land because of unbelief. They died in the wilderness just like all the others.

Numbers 20:12
And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

Are they in hell? Uh, no. Other than in people's imaginations.

Do you deny that these went down to Sheol?

33 So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly. Numbers 16:33

JLB

 

[smaller]

Do you deny that these went down to Sheol?

33 So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly. Numbers 16:33

JLB

What I deny is anyone who thinks they know any other person can definitely be now or in the future, in the LoF. The greatest theological minds in the world know better than to go there. Does the citing above show people in the LoF? No! It shows people who died a flesh death and nothing more, period. Why read into things matters that are not there to see?