If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

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What I do know for a Rock Solid fact from Paul is that enemies of the Gospel as it pertains to unbelieving Israelite enemies of the Gospel are SAVED. And that sight alone caused me to RE-THINK my own false positions that other "believers" sold me prior.

Romans 11:25-32.

 

[JLB]

What I deny is anyone who thinks they know any other person can definitely be now or in the future, in the LoF. The greatest theological minds in the world know better than to go there. Does the citing above show people in the LoF? No! It shows people who died a flesh death and nothing more, period. Why read into things matters that are not there to see?

No need to try and change the subject, because no one has made any such claim about who will end up where.

What we have now is the doctrine of Christ, which was passed along by His Apostles, and is called the Apostles doctrine.

Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine.
Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
1 Timothy 4:16


If you choose to disregard what the scriptures teach us then you yourself, or me myself will be held accountable before God on that day.

Those who lead others astray, by watering down the words of the Lord and His Apostles, will be held accountable.

As Peter says...

19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:19-22


Carefully examine these words -

it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.



JLB

 

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No need to try and change the subject, because no one has made any such claim about who will end up where.

What we have now is the doctrine of Christ, which was passed along by His Apostles, and is called the Apostles doctrine.

Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine.
Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
1 Timothy 4:16

If you choose to disregard what the scriptures teach us then you yourself, or me myself will be held accountable before God on that day.

Those who lead others astray, by watering down the words of the Lord and His Apostles, will be held accountable.

As Peter says...

19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:19-22


Carefully examine these words -

it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

JLB

I think what is in a person's heart is reflected by what they "think" they see. Heb. 4:12.

I also see, easily, how eternal damnation could have applied to Paul IF I open my eyes to WHOM it may be applied to that was NOT Paul:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

The above also provides grounds to see HOW people fall into unbelief as well, when we see that there is more than just the person involved.

 

[JLB]

What I do know for a Rock Solid fact from Paul is that enemies of the Gospel as it pertains to unbelieving Israelite enemies of the Gospel are SAVED. And that sight alone caused me to RE-THINK my own false positions that other "believers" sold me prior.

Romans 11:25-32.

You seem to have the same issue with many of the scriptures that you "interpret".

You take the scriptures out of context and leave out the verses that give context.

You start with verse 25, however if you go back and get the full context, you would come across this language.

And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Romans 11:23

Once a person dies in this state of unbelief, then that's it, the Judgement.

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, Hebrews 9:27

Do you honestly believe that those who were broken off because of unbelief, and never returned to believing will be saved?

The scripture plainly says... if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. Romans 11:14

Paul clearly says that those who are of his flesh... he is determined to provoke them to jealousy that some of them might be saved.

He didn't assume that all of them were going to be saved, whether they believed or not.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I think what is in a person's heart is reflected by what they "think" they see. Heb. 4:12.

I also see, easily, how eternal damnation could have applied to Paul IF I open my eyes to WHOM it may be applied to that was NOT Paul:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

The above also provides grounds to see HOW people fall into unbelief as well, when we see that there is more than just the person involved.

That verse in 2 Corinthians 12;7 was unique to Paul, because of the abundance of his revelations.

Also, the "thorn in the flesh" was an Idiom for a source of frustration, and not a literal thorn in his flesh.

We are held responsible for our own sin.

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Romans 8:5-6

... For to be carnally minded is death.



JLB

 

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You seem to have the same issue with many of the scriptures that you "interpret".

It's always interesting to me that some see and some don't and rather see what they want to. I think Paul is abundantly clear and concise in Romans 11:25-32. But no matter how often it's cited, people can't believe their own eyes.

You take the scriptures out of context and leave out the verses that give context.

I haven't changed a thing, but read them. Obviously enemies of the Gospel as it pertains to Israel are in fact saved. Don't know why that would make you cry anyway.

 

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That verse in 2 Corinthians 12;7 was unique to Paul, because of the abundance of his revelations.

Also, the "thorn in the flesh" was an Idiom for a source of frustration, and not a literal thorn in his flesh.

Satan is NOT an idiom. There was ZERO reason for Paul to drag SATAN into that picture if SATAN wasn't involved.

And it if WAS a messenger of Satan in his flesh, which Paul says it was, then eternal damnation would apply to that entity in Paul's flesh.

But, since this strikes a little close to home on the FLESH HOLD of the tempter and his minions, people are instantly blinded to this fact all the time.

 

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Let's recognize a few facts about the "gift" of faith.

First of all it is a GIFT of God, not of men.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

God also has "faith" and is "faithful."

Deuteronomy 7:9
Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

1 Corinthians 1:9
God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Hebrews 2:17
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

The matters of God and of the Spirit are NOT forensic. In other words they can not be found out by forensic evidence or empirical evidence.

Things such as sin indwelling the flesh or evil present with us are NOT detectable in and of their own workings. Nobody for example can "cut" into the flesh and find indwelling sin OR open the brain to find "evil present." These matters are beyond forensics and empiricism.

God, His Word and His Spirit deals with intangibles. For example we do not "see" with our flesh eyes invisible entities such as Satan or devils. They exist, but are in fact unseen. Love is unseen. Mercy is unseen. Forgiveness is unseen. Grace is unseen.

None of these matters do we see as real physical tangible matters. Nevertheless all of these things ARE Spiritual Realities.

 

[JLB]

Satan is NOT an idiom.

A thorn in my side, or a "thorn in the flesh" is an idiom.

We would say "pain in the a@&".

It's a common idiomatic phrase that means a source of frustration.

Satan does not have access to those who keep themselves.

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18

Satan has no access to those who walk in the Spirit.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

...and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.


JLB

 

[smaller]

A thorn in my side, or a "thorn in the flesh" is an idiom.

We would say "pain in the a@&".

It's a common idiomatic phrase that means a source of frustration.

A "messenger of Satan" is not an idiom, but a genuine "wicked entity."

I'd consider your sight unbelief of what is written. No differently than denying that spiritual blindness/unbelief/lusts/temptations/deceptions and sin are also likewise linked to the devil and his messengers in the scriptures many many times. It's a common form of modern denial.

Job 2:10
But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

 

[JLB]

A "messenger of Satan" is not an idiom, but a genuine "wicked entity."

What was the message this messenger brought to Paul?

 

[JLB]

A "messenger of Satan" is not an idiom,

Agreed. Never said otherwise.

The thorn in the flesh s the idiom.

 

[JLB]

But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Did Job receive evil from the hand of God.

 

[smaller]

Did Job receive evil from the hand of God.

Ask Job. Job spoke, honestly regarding the matter, noted prior.

 

[JLB]

I haven't changed a thing, but read them. Obviously enemies of the Gospel as it pertains to Israel are in fact saved. Don't know why that would make you cry anyway.

Those who turn from their unbelief, will be saved, though they are enemies of the like Paul was.

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His Goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:21-23


...if they do not continue in unbelief,


JLB

 

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What was the message this messenger brought to Paul?

God reminded Paul, personally, via that messenger of Satan how the system is set up:

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

We don't have to look very far to see why this is so:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

 

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Those who turn from their unbelief, will be saved, though they are enemies of the like Paul was.

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His Goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:21-23

...if they do not continue in unbelief,

JLB

I would suggest the same blindness that inflicted and inflicts these unbelievers also keeps others from seeing the same thing:

Romans 11:8
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day.

 

[JLB]

Ask Job. Job spoke, honestly regarding the matter, noted prior.

That's what I thought.

 

[JLB]

God reminded Paul, personally, via that messenger of Satan how the system is set up:

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh...
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:13,16


JLB

 

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13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh...
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:13,16

JLB

Some read that and are apparently completely oblivious to having same.

Just another unfortunate lie.

Romans 7:
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

It's the same principle that Jesus shows us in Mark 4:15. Spiritual blindness and the knowledge of sin is prompted by our adversaries adverse reactions to Gods Words. That's how it works. 1 John 3:8, same thing.

Divine Consistency.