If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

[JLB]

Some read that and are apparently completely oblivious to having same.

Just another unfortunate lie.

Romans 7:
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

It's the same principle that Jesus shows us in Mark 4:15. Spiritual blindness and the knowledge of sin is prompted by our adversaries adverse reactions to Gods Words. That's how it works. 1 John 3:8, same thing.

Divine Consistency.

How it works is... We are to crucify our flesh, and put to death it's evil desires.

And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:24


How it works is... if you live according to what your flesh desires to do, you will die.

But, if by the Spirit, you put to death the deeds [evil manifestations] of the flesh you will live.


24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 7:24-8:2

A person that has been given the Holy Spirit has two choices:

• Walk after the flesh.

If you walk after the flesh, to practice the works of the flesh, you will not inherit the kingdom of God, ie: You will die.

• Walk after the Spirit.

If you walk after the Spirit, evidenced by producing the fruit of the Spirit, you will live.

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Romans 8:5-6


But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Galatians 5:22-24




JLB

 

[smaller]

How it works is... We are to crucify our flesh, and put to death it's evil desires.

And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:24

We've covered this ground numerous times JLB.

Sin dwells in our flesh. It does not come and go. It is in the flesh. Romans 7:17-20.

Paul also derived from this that 'evil' was present with him. Romans 7:21.

Believers for the most part don't care to hear of this. Personally I'll not have sin dwelling in my flesh and evil present with me turn me into a lying hypocrite about these hard line facts. And these "factual workings" are what makes our flesh contrary to and against the Spirit. Gal. 5:17.

This is also why we can only be saved by Grace through the faith and Mercy of God, and NOT of ourselves, because of our factual contrary to the Spirit flesh, which does not "go away" after salvation.

Paul gave his own flesh a vote of NO CONFIDENCE.

Philippians 3:3
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Paul emphasized the vote of no confidence to such an extreme degree that he termed himself as "sinners, of whom I am chief." 1 Tim. 1:15.

But many of you have an opposite conclusion than where Paul took these matters. You think the flesh can make itself sinless, and that my friend is a scriptural impossibility, a lie and a trap of the flesh, wily and in opposition to the Spirit, as it IS.

And yes, believers can fall into that flesh trap after salvation. And many many DO. Do I think such have lost their salvation?

No. There is no reason for me to see believers damned if they fall into blindness over the contrary and against the Spirit flesh.

That doesn't mean the flesh was ever right, nor can it be right. I take that portion of myself as perpetually WRONG. And religious people really don't care to hear of that. I understand this part of the Gospel as the offense of the Cross. And I do offend my own flesh with that reality.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"...the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthian 15:1-2 NASB)" (1 Corinthian 15:1-2 NASB)

They both say you can not cast what you have heard and believed behind you and still have the eternal life you received when you first believed.

That is what you are assuming. Neither of them SAY that. In fact, neither even mention eternal life as what can be lost.

I'm assuming nothing. I don't have to. Paul plainly says that one stands fast and is saved by the gospel IF they hold fast the word.

Not believing the gospel anymore is hardly holding fast to that which one heard. And Paul didn't even say 'eternal life' to give you wiggle room to redefine what that means. He plainly said 'saved'.

So now you have to explain how one can no longer believe the gospel they heard, but is somehow still 'holding fast' to the gospel they heard, and is, therefore, still saved ('holding fast' being the condition for being saved).

 

[FreeGrace]

I'm assuming nothing. I don't have to. Paul plainly says that one stands fast and is saved by the gospel IF they hold fast the word.

The Greek word in 1 Cor 15 doesn't mean to grasp with your hands.

The meaning is to possess. When one believes, they actually at that moment possess the Word. That's what Paul meant.

Not believing the gospel anymore is hardly holding fast to that which one heard. And Paul didn't even say 'eternal life' to give you wiggle room to redefine what that means. He plainly said 'saved'.

What happens after one has believed becomes a "family matter". And God the Father will most assuredly discipline any such wayward children. You don't have to worry about anyone seeming to "get away" with anything.

So now you have to explain how one can no longer believe the gospel they heard, but is somehow still 'holding fast' to the gospel they heard, and is, therefore, still saved ('holding fast' being the condition for being saved).

Jesus tells us that WHEN one believes, they HAVE eternal life in Jn 5:24. Do you disagree with this?

Then, Jesus tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH in Jn 10:28. Do you disagree with this?

If you disagree, please explain why you do.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Greek word in 1 Cor 15 doesn't mean to grasp with your hands.

The meaning is to possess. When one believes, they actually at that moment possess the Word. That's what Paul meant.

I understand that. He says that these saved people will be saved (not simply have fellowship) if they continue to possess the word of the gospel, or else their believing has been in vain.

"...I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you..." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold mine)

But you say there is no condition of holding fast the word of the gospel to be saved, in direct contradiction to Paul. You say it only means fellowship is conditioned on holding fast the word of the gospel. But we can plainly see with our own eyes that's not what Paul said.

What happens after one has believed becomes a "family matter".

Not a chance. Paul said salvation is conditioned on holding fast the word. He did not say that just the family matter of fellowship within the family is conditioned on holding fast the gospel word. The 'if' concerns salvation, not just fellowship.

Jesus tells us that WHEN one believes, they HAVE eternal life in Jn 5:24. Do you disagree with this?

This has never been a point of contention between us. You don't need to bring it up.
A person is saved the moment they believe. What you don't agree with is that Paul and John say the condition for staying saved is one must hold fast and continue in the word they first heard and were saved by.

Then, Jesus tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH in Jn 10:28. Do you disagree with this?

I agree completely and totally 100%. Hold fast the word of the gospel you first heard and by which you were saved and presently stand in and you will NEVER PERISH.

As I'm showing, the whole context of scripture warns us that the promise is conditioned on believing to the very end. Like I say, false doctrine almost without exception ignores one or more passages of scripture (many more in this case) to establish their doctrine. When one lifts a verse or passage of scripture out of the context of the whole Bible they are guilty of not dividing the Word of God correctly. Your doctrine does that.

 

[JLB]

The Greek word in 1 Cor 15 doesn't mean to grasp with your hands.

The meaning is to possess. When one believes, they actually at that moment possess the Word. That's what Paul meant.


What happens after one has believed becomes a "family matter". And God the Father will most assuredly discipline any such wayward children. You don't have to worry about anyone seeming to "get away" with anything.


Jesus tells us that WHEN one believes, they HAVE eternal life in Jn 5:24. Do you disagree with this?

Then, Jesus tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH in Jn 10:28. Do you disagree with this?

If you disagree, please explain why you do.

If a believer stops believing, are they still a believer, though they no longer believe?


JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Rom 6:3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

How does one get a new life?
He dies and is born again.
How does one do that?
By being baptized in water a believer is united to Christ in His death and in His resurrection to eternal life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.

How do we know we will be resurrected to eternal life as was Jesus?
In water baptism we are joined to Jesus in His death and His resurrection.

6 We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For he who has died is freed from sin.

How does water remission give remission of sins?
In baptism we are united to Christ in his death. Whoever dies is freed from his sins.

8 But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. 9 For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. (RSV)

In water baptism we are made dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Being baptized in water and in the Holy Spirit are two separate events separate event. (Acts 8:12-17; 10:44-47;19:4-6)
The two baptisms make up being born again of water and Spirit.

iakov the fool




By reading the words posted above, you have chosen to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool.
The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying changes to your cognitive functionality that may result.
No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. Enjoy the rest of your day.

 

[FreeGrace]

I understand that. He says that these saved people will be saved (not simply have fellowship) if they continue to possess the word of the gospel, or else their believing has been in vain.

I've never said fellowship is required for salvation. Why would anyone think that is my view?

But you say there is no condition of holding fast the word of the gospel to be saved, in direct contradiction to Paul.

Your claim here is in direct contradiction to all of my posts. The condition of possessing the gospel is to believe the gospel.

You say it only means fellowship is conditioned on holding fast the word of the gospel. But we can plainly see with our own eyes that's not what Paul said.

I've NEVER said that. If you can find any post of mine where I did say that, please cite the post # and I will retract such an unbiblical statement.

I said this:
"The meaning is to possess. When one believes, they actually at that moment possess the Word. That's what Paul meant."

Then I said this:
"What happens after one has believed becomes a "family matter"."

Not a chance. Paul said salvation is conditioned on holding fast the word.

When one believes, they BECOME family of God. John 1:12, Gal 3:26. So after one believes, whatever happens IS a family matter.

Your view places family status on how one behaves. That doesn't even happen in earthly families. Even the rebellious children are still the children of their parents.

He did not say that just the family matter of fellowship within the family is conditioned on holding fast the gospel word. The 'if' concerns salvation, not just fellowship.

No, the "if" concerns whether one has believed or not. The wording is quite plain and straightforward.

A person is saved the moment they believe. What you don't agree with is that Paul and John say the condition for staying saved is one must hold fast and continue in the word they first heard and were saved by.

Actually, no again, because Paul clearly said that one is saved if they possess the word (gospel).

I agree completely and totally 100%. Hold fast the word of the gospel you first heard and by which you were saved and presently stand in and you will NEVER PERISH.

Your understanding of "hold fast" continue to be in error. It means to possess. Once a person possesses salvation, they have NO ABILITY to lose it. Because there are NO verses that say such a thing.

As I'm showing, the whole context of scripture warns us that the promise is conditioned on believing to the very end.

That's NEVER taught in Scripture, but I understand that is what you think is being taught. You've been shown all the verses that guaranteeing our salvation and you've just ignored all of them.

Like I say, false doctrine almost without exception ignores one or more passages of scripture (many more in this case) to establish their doctrine. When one lifts a verse or passage of scripture out of the context of the whole Bible they are guilty of not dividing the Word of God correctly. Your doctrine does that.

On another thread I said this:

All references are from the NASB:

First, Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".

3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus
6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Second, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).

And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).

1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Third, Jesus tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; when they believe (Jn 5:24). Then, He tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).

5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Fourth, Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:
v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"
v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).
v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).
v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.
v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.
v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation
v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Fifth, there are absolutely zero verses that warn us plainly that one can lose their salvation.

Those who believe that salvation can be lost have quite clearly rejected these 15 verses which teach that salvation cannot be lost.


Now, please tell me what all these verses do teach, if not eternal security.

 

[JLB]

Your view places family status on how one behaves. That doesn't even happen in earthly families. Even the rebellious children are still the children of their parents.

Another classic example of you just "making up" things as go along.

This is a typical postmodern ploy to explain away the truth of God's word.


18 “If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. 20 And they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear. Deuteronomy 21:18-21


God does chastened His own children, but there comes a time when He will give them over to their owns ways...

4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:4-8


Yet when it comes to answering a simple question, you refuse to answer.

• If a believer stops believing, are they still a believer, though they have stopped believing?

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The condition of possessing the gospel is to believe the gospel.

Yes! The condition of possessing the gospel is to believe the gospel! Exactly true! IOW, holding fast the gospel is exactly equivalent to believing the gospel. Therefore, the condition for being saved is that you possess the gospel! Paul and John said it plain as day--one must hold fast to, and continue in, and possess (believe) the gospel in order to be saved:

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast (continue to believe) the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold and parenthesis mine)

Paul is plainly telling the saved, believing Corinthians that they are saved IF they hold fast the gospel. It's a condition for salvation. But you say the exact opposite and say believers don't have to hold fast (continue to believe) the word of the gospel to be saved. I think it completely and totally unreasonable that we are to believe what you say over and above what Paul so plainly said.

 

[JLB]

Sin dwells in our flesh. It does not come and go. It is in the flesh. Romans 7:17-20.

Yes, sin dwells in our flesh....

That's why we are to not fulfill the desires of the flesh by walking in the Spirit. Galatians 5:16

If you walk after the flesh, practicing its sinful works, then you will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

Simple as that.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Yes, sin dwells in our flesh....

That's why we are to not fulfill the desires of the flesh by walking in the Spirit. Galatians 5:16

You seem to equate that to not having any or excusing that which we all do have.

This condition doesn't change for any believer.

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Perhaps if we saw this for ourselves our self justifications would cease and the intents to damn other believers would also cease?

Simple enuf???

I don't expect the flesh to cooperate in either effort however.

 

[FreeGrace]

Another classic example of you just "making up" things as go along.

lol. Family life of humans (for reference) is just making stuff up to you, huh. Why did God choose to use such terms, if there is no parallelism between physical and spiritual families?

This is a typical postmodern ploy to explain away the truth of God's word.

Loose translation: I have no idea how to refute any of this, so I'll just attack it in order to try to dismiss it.

Yet when it comes to answering a simple question, you refuse to answer.

This is a direct and blatant non truth. Stop it. I've answered your [removed unnecessary adjective. WIP] question repreatedly. Either you don't comprehend my answer or you just can't refute it.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes! The condition of possessing the gospel is to believe the gospel! Exactly true! IOW, holding fast the gospel is exactly equivalent to believing the gospel. Therefore, the condition for being saved is that you possess the gospel!

What you keep failing to understand is the simple truth that Jesus taught:
1. In Jn 5:24 He taught that one HAS eternal life WHEN one believes. Do you understand this?
2. In Jn 10:28 He taught that to those He gives eternal life (which is WHEN they believe), He promises that they WILL NEVER PERISH. Do you understand this?
3. Therefore, He has promised at the moment WHEN one believes, they HAVE eternal life, and WILL NEVER PERISH.

[Please do not make accusations about what others believe. This is a violation of ToS 2.4. WIP]

Paul is plainly telling the saved, believing Corinthians that they are saved IF they hold fast the gospel. It's a condition for salvation. But you say the exact opposite and say believers don't have to hold fast (continue to believe) the word of the gospel to be saved. I think it completely and totally unreasonable that we are to believe what you say over and above what Paul so plainly said.

Jesus was clear: WHEN one believes, they HAVE eternal life (Jn 5:24) and WILL NEVER PERISH. (Jn 10:28)

Which part of "never" do you not seem to understand??

 

[JLB]

Why did God choose to use such terms, if there is no parallelism between physical and spiritual families?

Great, here is a parallel between a natural son and a spiritual son.

18 “If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who,when they have chastened him, will not heed them, 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. 20 And they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear. Deuteronomy 21:18-21



JLB

 

[JLB]

Jesus was clear: WHEN one believes, they HAVE eternal life (Jn 5:24) and WILL NEVER PERISH. (Jn 10:28)

When some believes they now know God, they are now connected to God, they now have a relationship with God, as typtified by a brach that is connected to the Vine, which is eternal life.

If they become disconnected from God, because of unbelief, they no longer have they eternal life that comes from knowing God.

If a believer, stops believing are the still a believer?



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Great, here is a parallel between a natural son and a spiritual son.

18 “If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who,when they have chastened him, will not heed them, 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. 20 And they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear. Deuteronomy 21:18-21
JLB

How does this help your view? Punishment by physical death doesn't severe the PERMANENT RELATIONSHIP between birth parent and child. And God still uses physical death for rebellious believers today.

1 Cor 11:30 - For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep (euphemism for physical death).

The point of the parallelism between physical birth parent to child and spiritual Father to child is that both relationships are permanent.

Consider these verses:

All references are from the NASB:

First, Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".

3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus
6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Second, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).

And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).

1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Third, Jesus tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; when they believe (Jn 5:24). Then, He tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).

5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Fourth, Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:
v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"
v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).
v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).
v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.
v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.
v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation
v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Fifth, there are absolutely zero verses that warn us plainly that one can lose their salvation.

Those who believe that salvation can be lost have quite clearly rejected these 15 verses which teach that salvation cannot be lost.

I have explained all these verses. And they definitely refer to eternal security.

Your challenge is to prove that they don't teach eternal security. So, if you can, please address verse or passage and explain what exactly they do teach, since you reject that they teach eternal security.

They DO teach something. So, what do they teach, if not eternal security?

 

[Jim Parker]

The Greek word in 1 Cor 15 doesn't mean to grasp with your hands.
The meaning is to possess. When one believes, they actually at that moment possess the Word. That's what Paul meant.

Which changes exactly nothing of what Jethro Bodine correctly said.
If you don't hold fast yuo don't stay saved.

 

[OzSpen]

Which changes exactly nothing of what Jethro Bodine correctly said.
If you don't hold fast yuo don't stay saved.

That's what both John Calvin and Jacob Arminius taught in their doctrine of perseverance of the saints.

This is what Arminius taught. This is straight from the Works of James Arminius, vol 1 (online):

V. THE PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS
My sentiments respecting the perseverance of the saints are, that those persons who have been grafted into Christ by true faith, and have thus been made partakers of his life-giving Spirit, possess sufficient powers [or strength] to fight against Satan, sin, the world and their own flesh, and to gain the victory over these enemies—yet not without the assistance of the grace of the same Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ also by his Spirit assists them in all their temptations, and affords them the ready aid of his hand; and, provided they stand prepared for the battle, implore his help, and be not wanting to themselves, Christ preserves them from falling. So that it is not possible for them, by any of the cunning craftiness or power of Satan, to be either seduced or dragged out of the hands of Christ. But I think it is useful and will be quite necessary in our first convention, [or Synod] to institute a diligent inquiry from the Scriptures, whether it is not possible for some individuals through negligence to desert the commencement of their existence in Christ, to cleave again to the present evil world, to decline from the sound doctrine which was once delivered to them, to lose a good conscience, and to cause Divine grace to be ineffectual.

Though I here openly and ingenuously affirm, I never taught that a true believer can, either totally or finally fall away from the faith, and perish; yet I will not conceal, that there are passages of scripture which seem to me to wear this aspect; and those answers to them which I have been permitted to see, are not of such a kind as to approve themselves on all points to my understanding. On the other hand, certain passages are produced for the contrary doctrine [of unconditional perseverance] which are worthy of much consideration.

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, 2.5.3, wrote:

Therefore, while we all labour naturally under the same disease, those only recover health to whom the Lord is pleased to put forth his healing hand. The others whom, in just judgment, he passes over, pine and rot away till they are consumed. And this is the only reason why some persevere to the end, and others, after beginning their course, fall away. Perseverance is the gift of God, which he does not lavish promiscuously on all, but imparts to whom he pleases. If it is asked how the difference arises--why some steadily persevere, and others prove deficient in steadfastness, we can give no other reason than that the Lord, by his mighty power, strengthens and sustains the former, so that they perish not, while he does not furnish the same assistance to the latter, but leaves them to be monuments of instability.

Sincerely,
Oz

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Which part of "never" do you not seem to understand??

What part, you ask? The part you add that says unbelievers have eternal life and will never perish. Paul and John both say you have to hold fast and continue in that which you heard from the beginning in order to have eternal life and be saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB, 1 John 2:24 NASB). But you say we do not need to hold fast and continue in what we heard from the beginning in order to be saved.

Even Peter tells us that it is through our faith that we have the power of God that keeps us for the day of salvation:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:3-5 KJV bold and underline mine)

No faith means no power of God for being kept unto the salvation that will be revealed. But you say we do not need faith to have the power of God to be kept for the coming day of salvation. You say we can stop believing and we'll still be kept by the power of God for the day of salvation.

Notice he is talking to born again people ('begotten' vs.3), not people who never believed. He's telling believers, not unbelievers, that it is through their continuing faith that they are kept by God to receive the coming eternal inheritance.

Notice, too, it is the inheritance that is eternal and which 'fadeth not away' (vs. 4). But you, along with countless others, erroneously understand 'eternal life' to mean you can not lose it in this life after you are born again because it's eternal, instead of what it actually means--a life that you may or may not have that never ends. That's why the illustration of the lotto ticket is accurate. The riches the ticket secures is not what is in question and can fade away. Your firm possession of the ticket until the day of redemption is what is in question and can fade away.