If not God

[Oats]

this is a question to Non Believers for a change

This is not to promote your views, but this gives us a chance to find out more

God does exist.

But if you "believe" he doesn't then what is the point of reality?

Why?

Why is God not the "appropriate answer"
----

civility please

can you move this to the correct section, i have no access :

 

[abrown9]

this is a question to Non Believers for a change

This is not to promote your views, but this gives us a chance to find out more

God does exist.

But if you "believe" he doesn't then what is the point of reality?

Why?

Why is God not the "appropriate answer"
----

civility please

can you move this to the correct section, i have no access :

Why?

Why not. The natural is so awesome that we need not go beyond it.

I think my question in return would be why do we need a god to have meaning?

There is a quote that sums up my beliefs perfectly. I dug through a book in an attempt to find the exact wording, but failed miserably. Anyways, to paraphrase:

Why does the discovery that the mind is a result of millions of neurons firing make it any less unique or wonderous? Why does the discovery that we are but an insignificant speck in the grand scheme of things change how we should view the incredible beauty of our natural world?

My life is made meaningful by the people I love, the things that I enjoy doing, and simply being out in nature. The natural world is filled with unknown that is so complex and beautiful at the same time that it can't help but inspire wonder in our lowly species. To me there is nothing more enjoyable than being outdoors (I live in the Canadian Shield) with those I love, experiencing the world for all her beauty. As long as you can derrive enjoyment and experience love, life cannot be meaningless. The fact that everything is "random" does not make it any less perfect.

Reality is completely subjective and based on our experiences. There is no "point" to it, but that doesn't make our experiences meaningless.

 

[Alabaster]

When people are awestruck, they express their wonder---to whom?

God as Creator!

I don't know how many times I've witnessed unbelievers, excited and joyful and in wonder proclaiming unashamedly, "Oh my God!"

The wonder and awe that unbelievers express stops at their words, in their thinking, but we believers know that they are heard and received by the One who is wondrous and awesome: Jehovah Shammah, "The Lord Is There".

 

[abrown9]

When people are awestruck, they express their wonder---to whom?

God as Creator!

I don't know how many times I've witnessed unbelievers, excited and joyful and in wonder proclaiming unashamedly, "Oh my God!"

The wonder and awe that unbelievers express stops at their words, in their thinking, but we believers know that they are heard and received by the One who is wondrous and awesome: Jehovah Shammah, "The Lord Is There".

Which is why I've taken to saying "Cheese and Rice"

I think its a little presumptive to think that all wonder and awe is directed to God. As a nonbeliever, my wonder and awe are directed nothing and at everything - The Natural World.

 

[Alabaster]

Which is why I've taken to saying "Cheese and Rice"

I think its a little presumptive to think that all wonder and awe is directed to God. As a nonbeliever, my wonder and awe are directed nothing and at everything - The Natural World.

It all goes to God, anyway. His creation passes it on. It knows where praise and thankfulness belongs.

Luke 19:39-40 (New Living Translation)

But some of the Pharisees among the crowd said, “Teacher, rebuke your followers for saying things like that!” He replied, “If they kept quiet, the stones along the road would burst into cheers!”


Isaiah 55:12 (New Living Translation)

You will live in joy and peace.
The mountains and hills will burst into song,
and the trees of the field will clap their hands!

 

[jasoncran]

Why?

Why not. The natural is so awesome that we need not go beyond it.

I think my question in return would be why do we need a god to have meaning?

There is a quote that sums up my beliefs perfectly. I dug through a book in an attempt to find the exact wording, but failed miserably. Anyways, to paraphrase:

Why does the discovery that the mind is a result of millions of neurons firing make it any less unique or wonderous? Why does the discovery that we are but an insignificant speck in the grand scheme of things change how we should view the incredible beauty of our natural world?

My life is made meaningful by the people I love, the things that I enjoy doing, and simply being out in nature. The natural world is filled with unknown that is so complex and beautiful at the same time that it can't help but inspire wonder in our lowly species. To me there is nothing more enjoyable than being outdoors (I live in the Canadian Shield) with those I love, experiencing the world for all her beauty. As long as you can derrive enjoyment and experience love, life cannot be meaningless. The fact that everything is "random" does not make it any less perfect.

Reality is completely subjective and based on our experiences. There is no "point" to it, but that doesn't make our experiences meaningless.

I am bout to commit suicide and dont have a purpose to live. for the sake of arguement convince me why should i live?

the reasons

all is meanlingless.
i'm a vet and seen the evil men do.
kids murdered by the thousands
kids burned by hot oil as punishment(babies)
kids killed by the taliban for punishment of the parents who went to the americans for help

why should i believe in your view as these shrinks tell me that is sad but its a part of life.

life is suffering and nothing else?

NOTE: I AM NOT SUICIDIAL BUT USING MY OWN STRUGGLE FOR ANSWERS TO GET AN CONTRA-AGRUMENT TO THE IDEA THAT GOD GIVES ME A REASON TO LIVE.

I DONT HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS INSPITE OF MY FAITH.

 

[Pebbles]

There isn't a point in reality. Reality just is. a purpose dosen't make reality any better worse more simplistic or complicated.

@jasoncran
If your feeling suicidal your clearly in a great deal of pain, The pain comes from an emotional injury while... suicidal your in too much pain to make a clear judgment or figure a way out it's only if others can help you

I as an atheist can't tell you for definite what lies beyond life, There isn't any guarantee that what lies past this incomprehensible experience is any better easier or has any greater meaning than this world that assuming there's anything at all.

It's probable that the reason why there is so much suffering in the world is because the universe tends to entropy (Death) rather than life thus there a millions more ways to destroy than heal.
It dosen't personally provide me any comfort thinking that someone engineered that insane concept than it just randomly begin the case.

 

[Alabaster]

It's probable that the reason why there is so much suffering in the world is because the universe tends to entropy (Death) rather than life thus there a millions more ways to destroy than heal.
It dosen't personally provide me any comfort thinking that someone engineered that insane concept than it just randomly begin the case.

You are right that the world tends to entropy. It didn't start that way. Sin came and perfection was tainted and became temporal, subject to death.

In Christ we have healing and life. Our bodies will eventally give way to physical death due to the law of death that has usurped God's law of life on this plane, but if we know Jesus, death is not the end. We pass from one plane to the next, seamlessly. Hello!

 

[Oats]

are you non theist willing to except how extremely improbable it is that the universe and everything in it is completely random?

---

When people like Ravi or Clives present arguments they are nigh refuted,

When the apostles write Gospels and epistles they are above reprove, (skepticism does exist of course),

when a man comes and convey the most beautiful message that millions, billions rather, believe and change their lives, no one can argue it,

when a watch sits in the woods and the time is 9 o clock, no one can say it has always been there
---

thanks everyone for your comments

It truly is impossible to refute God

I say in my humble opinion theist have really good if not irrefutable points.

Read some Paul and C.S. Lewis
----
:shocked!

 

[Mike]

When people are awestruck, they express their wonder---to whom?

God as Creator!

I don't know how many times I've witnessed unbelievers, excited and joyful and in wonder proclaiming unashamedly, "Oh my God!"

The wonder and awe that unbelievers express stops at their words, in their thinking, but we believers know that they are heard and received by the One who is wondrous and awesome: Jehovah Shammah, "The Lord Is There".

Your post made me think of Carl Sagan's infamous words, "The cosmos is all there is, all there ever was and all there ever will be." He goes on to say that we as people are part of the "stuff" that makes up the universe, because that is where we came from. So he suggested (or rather, said) that the reason we are so in awe of the beauty of space is that we are "one with it" and we are drawn to it because we are all made up of this "stuff". It's so convoluted, IMO, but this would be his explanation for his fascination when he looked up.

We as Christians see the tapestry of God's limitless Creation, and it strikes us because of His wonderful work. He is an awesome God! :yes

 

[jasoncran]

There isn't a point in reality. Reality just is. a purpose dosen't make reality any better worse more simplistic or complicated.

@jasoncran
If your feeling suicidal your clearly in a great deal of pain, The pain comes from an emotional injury while... suicidal your in too much pain to make a clear judgment or figure a way out it's only if others can help you

I as an atheist can't tell you for definite what lies beyond life, There isn't any guarantee that what lies past this incomprehensible experience is any better easier or has any greater meaning than this world that assuming there's anything at all.

It's probable that the reason why there is so much suffering in the world is because the universe tends to entropy (Death) rather than life thus there a millions more ways to destroy than heal.
It dosen't personally provide me any comfort thinking that someone engineered that insane concept than it just randomly begin the case.

interesting response and honest one but i am NOT suicidal.

i haven't been that way in a while.

 

[Vic C.]

this is a question to Non Believers for a change

This is not to promote your views, but this gives us a chance to find out more

God does exist.

But if you "believe" he doesn't then what is the point of reality?

Why?

Why is God not the "appropriate answer"
----

civility please

can you move this to the correct section, i have no access :

Haha. I've asked many times why an atheist would spend so much time and energy refuting that which they claim doesn't exist anyway. Seems very illogical for those who claim to rely so much on logic and reason.

 

[abrown9]

Haha. I've asked many times why an atheist would spend so much time and energy refuting that which they claim doesn't exist anyway. Seems very illogical for those who claim to rely so much on logic and reason.

Well in fairness he asked us the question here!

And I'm really interested in religion because it has such a large impact on the culture that surrounds me. I'm hoping to get better aquainted with scripture next semester as I'm taking some theology courses in University. I believe in a well rounded education, and new ideas rarely come from talking with people of like mind.

All in all, having your beliefs challenged allows you to refine them and understand if they are really your beliefs.

@ Oats

In terms of randomness, I assume you are in part referring to the inherent perfection on earth, and how it couldn't possibly be anything but a result of design.

To me, it is any argument on how improbable the perfection that exists in the natural world cannot be random is moot. It is here and if it wasn't, we wouldn't be around to have this conversation.

Furthermore, I would say everything is far from "perfect" or "balanced". In fact, life as we know it is constantly on the edge of chaos, teetering back and forth towards total implosion or explosion. There is no status quo that nature is constantly at. This is why conservation is so hard.

Finally, I would be ignorant to think that we have all the answers at our fingertips now. Clearly there is a self-organizing behaviour evident in all systems that we do not understand fully. To me, that does not imply a creator, it implies more knowledge that will eventually unravel, leading to even more mysteries. To me, furthering the borders of humanity involves unravelling these mysteries.

@ Jason

I have very little formal education in psychology. Basically, as Pebbles said, reality is what it is. There is no "meaning" or "purpose" to it. Some people are unlucky and others are lucky. My advice would be to seek professional help and to try to find happiness and love (not necessarily romantic) again in your life.

 

[Oats]

Well in fairness he asked us the question here!

And I'm really interested in religion because it has such a large impact on the culture that surrounds me. I'm hoping to get better aquainted with scripture next semester as I'm taking some theology courses in University. I believe in a well rounded education, and new ideas rarely come from talking with people of like mind.

All in all, having your beliefs challenged allows you to refine them and understand if they are really your beliefs.

@ Oats

In terms of randomness, I assume you are in part referring to the inherent perfection on earth, and how it couldn't possibly be anything but a result of design.

To me, it is any argument on how improbable the perfection that exists in the natural world cannot be random is moot. It is here and if it wasn't, we wouldn't be around to have this conversation.

Furthermore, I would say everything is far from "perfect" or "balanced". In fact, life as we know it is constantly on the edge of chaos, teetering back and forth towards total implosion or explosion. There is no status quo that nature is constantly at. This is why conservation is so hard.

Finally, I would be ignorant to think that we have all the answers at our fingertips now. Clearly there is a self-organizing behaviour evident in all systems that we do not understand fully. To me, that does not imply a creator, it implies more knowledge that will eventually unravel, leading to even more mysteries. To me, furthering the borders of humanity involves unravelling these mysteries.

@ Jason

I have very little formal education in psychology. Basically, as Pebbles said, reality is what it is. There is no "meaning" or "purpose" to it. Some people are unlucky and others are lucky. My advice would be to seek professional help and to try to find happiness and love (not necessarily romantic) again in your life.

humans are imperfect

but the idea idea isn't
----
God is imperfect compared to what?

also you said life is imperfect
compared to what ?

 

[Ashua]

Darwindiddit.

 

[Oats]

Darwindiddit.

1+ interwebs

 

[abrown9]

@ Oats

I'm sorry I don't really understand what you're asking. "The idea idea isn't [perfect]"?

I don't believe I ever said god is perfect or imperfect. Rather, I said I don't see him as a logical explanation for mysteries we do not understand. As for life being imperfect: I am comparing to the perfection evident in a crystal lattice or the development of a eutelic organism that take the same shape every time. The so called "balance of nature" is not immutable.

I hope I have successfully answered your question as to why God is not a necessary component of reality in my previous posts. If you need any more clarification, feel free to let me know.

@ Ashua

I have avoided ad hominim attacks against your belief system. I would appreciate if you didn't use them against mine.

 

[Ashua]

@ Ashua

I have avoided ad hominim attacks against your belief system. I would appreciate if you didn't use them against mine.

Ad hominem means "towards/against the man."

Attacking a belief is not ad hominemism. All semantics aside, sure. If you prefer a more stoic approach, I can go that way too, no problem.

 

[abrown9]

I do know what it means, but I will admit it was probably misused. I guess I consider debasing someones beliefs as an attack against their person.

 

[Ashua]

I do know what it means, but I will admit it was probably misused. I guess I consider debasing someones beliefs as an attack against their person.

ad hominism is when someone attacks someone else on the personal level. But yeah, I know what the intention of your message was. "Don't abase my belief out of respect to me."

It's a fair request and one I'm readily willing to grant.