if one doest accept the trinity then what was jesus?

[jasoncran]

i have been to mass, buddy and in fact i have a prayer book next to me from the rcc.

from the book prayer for all ocassions , in particular the basilica of the national schrine of the immaculate conception in D.C.

page 47, one of two that i glanced at.

MY GOOD AND DEAR JESUS, I KNEEL BEFORE YOU, ASKING YOU MOST ERNESTLY TO ENGRAVE UPON MY HEART A DEEP AND LIVELY FAITH, HOPE AND CHARITY, WITH TRUE REPENTANCE FOR MY SINS AND A FIRM RESOLVE..

hmm that one aint that bad.

 

[shad]

Jesus is the Mediator between God and mankind. And Jesus said that "I and the Father are one", so our prayers, whether to Jesus directly or the Father directly, are still to God. Mysteriously, praying to Jesus is "like" praying to the Father, since One of the Persons cannot be excluded when praying to God. It is that the human mind will ordinarily consider prayers to Jesus because HE is the physical manifestation of the Father. We pray "in Jesus' name" because He is the Mediator and that WONDERFUL work of love on the Cross implores God to view us favorably.

Regards

You just said you pray to Jesus. You did not say you pray to the Father. Why do you have to make up extra qualification for salvation? What is wrong with believing in Jesus that He is our Savior and our Lord? And serve Him with all our heart and soul and strength and mind? I am only saying this because it is in the Bible clearly. I dont use any vague verses to ostracize other believers like trinitarians do. If you persecute other faithful servants of Jesus just because they dont agree with your doctrine, you are persecuting Jesus. You just made a comment about cooperating with other believers. Non-trinitarians are serving Jesus too. Why the ostracism?

I am serving Jesus with all my might and you are still insisting that I am not a Christian because I dont believe in trinity?

 

[jasoncran]

because shad in an earlier post you deny that jesus is God.
he either is God or isnt.

 

[dadof10]

The Bible nowhere says that the Bible is to be taken as a rule of faith,

Yes, it is written, all Scripture is God breathed.

True, but it's USE is stated to be for "training, reproof and correction in righteousness..." The point is you believe something that is UNCLEAR. There is FAR more evidence of Jesus' divinity than of the SUFFICIENCY of Scripture.

[quote:2vilhw16]That the Trinity is not spelled out clearly enough for you shouldn't matter, since you accept other doctrines also not clearly spelled out.

I will bring out all clear and simple verses about God and Jesus and their relationship in new thread. Please join me.[/quote:2vilhw16]

OK, I'll look for it.

[quote:2vilhw16]Thomas said - "My Lord and My God"
You must deal with the plain, SIMPLE words of Scripture.

Your interpretation is out of context of other clear statements.
That's why it is wrong. Your interpretation is preconceived Trinity doctrine.[/quote:2vilhw16]

Which "clear statements"? As you have been told numerous times, the Christian doctrine of the Trinity takes Jesus' statements about YHWH being His "God" into consideration. It's both/and, not either/or.

When Jesus prays to God, He is not "praying to Himself" or other such nonsense. He is praying with His human Nature. When He makes statements such as "I am" or, as Mondar noted, Paul speaks of the "fullness of Deity" dwelling in Him bodily, or when Thomas calls Him "my God", He is speaking and being spoken of, of His Divine Nature. It's the only way to RECONCILE the two concepts.

I know it's hard to understand, no one has FULLY understood it...yet. But that doesn't make it any less true.

 

[shad]

because shad in an earlier post you deny that jesus is God.
he either is God or isnt.

He is my Savior and My Lord. Why do you insist on extra qualification for salvation? Jesus does not approve of lip servers. He says we know them by their fruit. You kill your enemies against Jesus' commandment. You deny Jesus by your action.

 

[ORwarriOR]

Yes, the issue is who is a Christian. That has always been the question. The first anti-trinitarians may have been the gnostics. Of course the Early Church Fathers rejected gnostic philosophy. Later the Arians came into being. Historic Christianity has always rejected non-trinitarians as being a part of the faith. I say this not to cause offense, but the truth in this matter is definitional of the term "Christian." The concept of three persons, one being is historically definitional. If I am wrong about Christ being a part of the godhead, then I am not a Christian. I am not worshipping the real and actual God. If you are wrong, then you are not a Christian, and you worship a wrong God. I absolutely admit that I think in those ways because the issue of the trinity is definitional to Christianity.

I disagree very strongly with this. In a world with so many opinions, I don't think this is fair way of looking at things. People are going to have different beliefs because everyone is going to have a different understanding of the scripture, and I don't see that as a bad thing I guess; but when person 1 is saying to person 2 that "My faith is more right than your faith" it takes away from our focus. Our focus is to be disciples of Christ. I think as long as you are talking every effort to become more and more like Christ and worshiping God Almighty, then you have definitely earned your right to call yourself a Christian, no matter how you interpret the scripture.

How do you know your a disciple of Christ? How do you know that you are worshiping God Almighty? If you think God is something less then what he is, and you are wrong, are you a blasphemer? If I say God is a little green Leprechaun, and he hides behind one of the violets in the yard, and I worship him, would you still say my faith is equal to yours?

Sir, your view of truth is very new age and not Christian at all. You say that...
"People are going to have different beliefs because everyone is going to have a different understanding of the scripture, and I don't see that as a bad thing I guess;"
Words have meaning. Words penned long ago by those who recorded the words of the prophets and apostles were understood in their language and culture. The words I am writing now have a specific meaning that does not have different meanings, it has a specific meaning. If you get some minor issue wrong, that is one thing. I have many brothers in the Lord that disagree with me on paedo baptism. I believe in believers baptism. While they are my Christian brother, one who redefines who God is, is not my Christian brother.

1Jn 2:22 Who is the liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, even he that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that confesseth the Son hath the Father also.

I know I am a disciple of Christ if I put all his teachings into action and walk in his ways. I serve the God almighty that was described in the old testament, and my lord Jesus Christ. I don't care about the future, I live only for today. If I am worshiping the God of the bible to my understanding then I am worshiping God almighty. There are things I don't understand and that's ok; I won't pretend that I'm 100% Right and if someone can explain something better to me I'll admit I'm wrong and believe them. But what I do understand is how to walk in the way of Christ, and I know to pray to my God every day. I am a disciple of Christ, and I won't let anyone tell me otherwise. There is only ONE god. The creator of the universe. I pray to the creator, I'm sure I can't be wrong in that. You say that I can worship the wrong God? That doesn't make any sense at all. Possibly a bad analogy but I don't know any other way to word it; say you're a blind man, you have a dog, but you think it's a cat. You still give it all the love, attention and care that it deserves but at the end of the day it's still a dog, and I'm sure it still enjoys the attention regardless of whether or not your understanding of it is perfect. I'm not trying to compare God to a pet or an animal but my point is perception doesn't change facts and being able to give someone (in this case God) love regardless if your understanding of him is perfect or not.

 

[shad]

The Bible nowhere says that the Bible is to be taken as a rule of faith,

Yes, it is written, all Scripture is God breathed.

True, but it's USE is stated to be for "training, reproof and correction in righteousness..." The point is you believe something that is UNCLEAR. There is FAR more evidence of Jesus' divinity than of the SUFFICIENCY of Scripture.

I will bring up all clear verses so we dont have to rely on scholars and anyone else. You trinitarians are making up your own doctrines by relying on all vague verses. That's why it is all out of context with clear verses. Are you going to open to my claim? or you just argue and insisting how unlearned I am?

 

[jasoncran]

orwarrior by that thinking a muslim, a jew and all that have the idea of god as general concept are saved.

and the masons call the Lord (yhwh, adonai) the devil and an evil God and call lucifer(satan) good, are they saved as well?

 

[shad]

I know I am a disciple of Christ if I put all his teachings into action and walk in his ways. I serve the God almighty that was described in the old testament, and my lord Jesus Christ. I don't care about the future, I live only for today. If I am worshiping the God of the bible to my understanding then I am worshiping God almighty. There are things I don't understand and that's ok; I won't pretend that I'm 100% Right and if someone can explain something better to me I'll admit I'm wrong and believe them. But what I do understand is how to walk in the way of Christ, and I know to pray to my God every day. I am a disciple of Christ, and I won't let anyone tell me otherwise. There is only ONE god. The creator of the universe. I pray to the creator, I'm sure I can't be wrong in that. You say that I can worship the wrong God? That doesn't make any sense at all. Possibly a bad analogy but I don't know any other way to word it; say you're a blind man, you have a dog, but you think it's a cat. You still give it all the love, attention and care that it deserves but at the end of the day it's still a dog, and I'm sure it still enjoys the attention regardless of whether or not your understanding of it is perfect. I'm not trying to compare God to a pet or an animal but my point is perception doesn't change facts and being able to give someone (in this case God) love regardless if your understanding of him is perfect or not.

Thank you for your testimony Warrior. I am the same way too. I am Jesus' servant and I know He is my Lord and Savior. No one can take that away from me with their doctrines.

 

[shad]

Jason,

Warrior did not say anything to deny Jesus as his Lord and Savior. Why the ostracism?

 

[ORwarriOR]

orwarrior by that thinking a muslim, a jew and all that have the idea of god as general concept are saved.

and the masons call the Lord (yhwh, adonai) the devil and an evil God and call lucifer(satan) good, are they saved as well?

They don't follow in the way of Christ so I can't comment. I've heard some interesting theories on universalism, but I don't know a lot about it so I can't talk. I treat everyone as if they are saved though, I don't look down on anyone. Regardless of whether or not I can be sure they will be saved or not, I'll still show them the same kindness.

 

[shad]

Universalism teaches that everyone will be saved without being Jesus' followers. And they are claiming to be Christians.

 

[JudaicChristian]

After the council in Jerusalem circumcision was no longer an issue.

LOL! You are apparently not familiar with ecclesiastical politics. Rarely in Church history do we find sudden unanimous agreement, even after a Counciliar ruling. The Church is just not that centralized. For example, Chalcedon exists largely because Nicea was not entirely accepted. Isn't it clear from Pauline letters that he continued to fight against Judaizers who thought Gentiles had to be first circumcised and that it WAS a big issue for Paul, as he constantly riles against the idea, such as in Romans and Galatians, written after the Council (actually, all of the NT was written after the Council...)

Regards

You are confusing Orthodox Judaism with the Judaizing Christians. Paul was in conflict with the Orthodox Jews about circumcision. The Judaizing Christians in the 2nd 3rd and 4th century AD were against Trinitarianism, Sunday Sabbath, Gnosticism, and the authority of the pope.

 

[westtexas]

For anyone who is interested in a good, quick Greek study,

http://www.aomin.org/GRANVILL.html

2 Peter 1:1--tou theou hemon kai sotaros lesou Christou---is translated "Our God and Saviour Jesus Christ"

2 Peter 1:11--tou kuriou hemon kai sotaros lesou Christou--is translated "Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ"

Granville Sharp's Rule--Granville Sharp was an abolitionist and biblical Greek scholar in the late 1700's. Many theologians who do not want to accept that Jesus is God have tried to disprove his translations but on a strictly grammatical argument cannot disprove him.

Westtexas

 

[Mysteryman]

For anyone who is interested in a good, quick Greek study,

http://www.aomin.org/GRANVILL.html

2 Peter 1:1--tou theou hemon kai sotaros lesou Christou---is translated "Our God and Saviour Jesus Christ"

2 Peter 1:11--tou kuriou hemon kai sotaros lesou Christou--is translated "Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ"

Granville Sharp's Rule--Granville Sharp was an abolitionist and biblical Greek scholar in the late 1700's. Many theologians who do not want to accept that Jesus is God have tried to disprove his translations but on a strictly grammatical argument cannot disprove him.

Westtexas

Hi Westtexas :

May I ask you a few simple questions ?

Can God die ?

Is God Spirit ?

Did Jesus Christ die ?

I am sure you do believe as I do, that Jesus Christ indeed did die for our sins. So if Jesus Christ is dead, then who raised him from the dead ?

 

[dadof10]

I will bring up all clear verses so we dont have to rely on scholars and anyone else. You trinitarians are making up your own doctrines by relying on all vague verses. That's why it is all out of context with clear verses. Are you going to open to my claim? or you just argue and insisting how unlearned I am?

I don't think you are "unlearned". Just misguided. Go ahead and post all the verses where Jesus calls the Father, "God", where Jesus prays to God, etc. Trinitarians don't run from these verses, as non-trinitarians run from Jn. 20:28, Col. 2:9, ALL the "I AM" verses, etc. When these verses are presented to non-trinitarians, you cry; "you're misinterpreting the verse", even going so far, as in the case of Jn. 20:28 to say that Thomas is not talking directly to Jesus, but to God, even though the CLEAR WORDS OF SCRIPTURE contradict you. And you can say with a straight face WE misinterpret verses???

Go ahead and post them, my friend.

 

[Mysteryman]

I will bring up all clear verses so we dont have to rely on scholars and anyone else. You trinitarians are making up your own doctrines by relying on all vague verses. That's why it is all out of context with clear verses. Are you going to open to my claim? or you just argue and insisting how unlearned I am?

I don't think you are "unlearned". Just misguided. Go ahead and post all the verses where Jesus calls the Father, "God", where Jesus prays to God, etc. Trinitarians don't run from these verses, as non-trinitarians run from Jn. 20:28, Col. 2:9, ALL the "I AM" verses, etc. When these verses are presented to non-trinitarians, you cry; "you're misinterpreting the verse", even going so far, as in the case of Jn. 20:28 to say that Thomas is not talking directly to Jesus, but to God, even though the CLEAR WORDS OF SCRIPTURE contradict you. And you can say with a straight face WE misinterpret verses???

Go ahead and post them, my friend.

Hi dadof10 :

As usual, these types of conversations don't usually produce any fruit. The reason why, is because of the contradictions of scripture that are produced by those who make such claims. As the Word of God can not contradict itself, one would have to manipulate the Word in such a way as to make false claims while contradicting other verses of scripture.

A simple question would be, do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God ?

If you were to say yes, he is the Son of God, then by shear logic, he can not be God. A son "of" is an offspring "of". This is why Jesus Christ is called the only begotten Son of God, as he is the offspring of God Almighty.

 

[jasoncran]

because shad in an earlier post you deny that jesus is God.
he either is God or isnt.

He is my Savior and My Lord. Why do you insist on extra qualification for salvation? Jesus does not approve of lip servers. He says we know them by their fruit. You kill your enemies against Jesus' commandment. You deny Jesus by your action.

lol, shad. name one incident in my service record where i killed anyone.
hmm

guess what i never, fired my weapon at all at anyone. please shad before you accuse me of something actually make sure that i am guilty of the crime.

thou shalt not bear false witness, nor thou shalt judge lest by the manner which you judge shall ye be judged.


two sins shad. my point here isnt to condemn as you have with me, but to show where you err and set you on the path of salvation if you arent there. i have never met a person who hated the church, yet claimed to know christ

 

[jasoncran]

do we need to grasp the entire nature of god to be saved? nope, but we do need to understand what little of God we can and accept the description given.

funny mm.

the word for rapture come raptos, which isnt in the original greek. and that comes from harpazio. and you accept the secret rapture idea. ( i see it) but i'm not so hung up on it that its the only way to see the end times for the church.

but with the trinity which has far clearer support to that idea, you ignore those.more verses support the trinity then the simple five that support the secret rapture.

 

[francisdesales]

You just said you pray to Jesus. You did not say you pray to the Father.

Sure we do. One great example is the Mass. It is the greatest prayer TO the Father. The culmination is the Great Amen: "Through Him (Jesus), with HIm, in Him, in unity with the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is Yours, Almighty Father, forever and ever, AMEN!" The Mass is a perfect offering to the Father, for Christ offers Himself and WE, as the Body of Christ, join in that prayer.

Why do you have to make up extra qualification for salvation? What is wrong with believing in Jesus that He is our Savior and our Lord? And serve Him with all our heart and soul and strength and mind?

Are you familiar with the Shema? Serve GOD with all of our heart, soul, strength, etc.???

You are again proving my point. Those words from Deuteronomy are reserved for GOD and GOD ALONE! And yet, you apply them to Jesus. Thus, Jesus = God in your mind.

I am only saying this because it is in the Bible clearly. I dont use any vague verses to ostracize other believers like trinitarians do.

Persecute? Differentiating beliefs and marking lines of demarcation is not "persecution". All human organizations have a set of standards, and for religious organizations, they have creeds or a set of beliefs. It wouldn't do to have someone in the community spouting off about Allah and Muslim tenants WHILE claiming to be part of the community. Thus, it is perfectly reasonable to point out OUR OWN set of beliefs. Those who do not believe as we do are not part of our community. This is not persecution, Shad.

If you persecute other faithful servants of Jesus just because they dont agree with your doctrine, you are persecuting Jesus. You just made a comment about cooperating with other believers. Non-trinitarians are serving Jesus too. Why the ostracism?

Is Paul persecuting Judaizers? Is John persecuting false prophets in his writings? Jude? Peter? No, Shad, truth demands that we live by it, and when we see false teachings, truth demands that we respond to correct that out of love.

I am serving Jesus with all my might and you are still insisting that I am not a Christian because I dont believe in trinity?

It sounds like you are a trinitarian, you just don't realize it or want to admit it.

Regards