francisdesales
Member
shad said:
Is Jeremiah or Isaiah spoken of as such? Yes. I think the bible speaks of Jesus in quite a different way, Shad.
Jesus is MUCH more than a teacher...
Regards
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
if one doest accept the trinity then what was jesus?
- Thread starter shad
- Start date
Is Jeremiah or Isaiah spoken of as such? Yes. I think the bible speaks of Jesus in quite a different way, Shad.
Jesus is MUCH more than a teacher...
Regards
westtexas
Member
No sir, I don't believe that I believe as you do!! I believe in the trinitarian doctrine ofMysteryman said:
God the Father=God the Son=God the Holy Spirit
If you'll consider all the verses everyone has been quoting to you, all of the above questions have been answered.
Westtexas
francisdesales said:
Yes. God is literally WITH us in Christ...
There is only one God, one Being. That Jesus and the Father are "distinct" is only in origination. The relationship between a Father and Son signifies that they are not the same, since one person cannot have such a relationship. What makes this difficult is that "Person" and "Being" are ordinarily synonymous. With God, we are dealing with Something different, my friend.
Regards[/quote]
Then why was Jesus referred to as the son at all then? I just don't understand it and I'm sorry, this logic doesn't make sense to me. It makes sense to me that he would be the only person that could perfectly reflect God's will because he was perfect. Again back to the point that he was the perfect vessel of the holy spirit since he was sin free. If you can explain how a father and son can be one, why he would pray to God, why he would say "not as my will but as yours" and "why do you call me good, the only one who is good is the father in heaven" (sorry if my quotes aren't spot on but you get the gist of it). I just can't wrap my mind around it, I'm sorry. This theory I can wrap my mind around, and unless you can explain it to me so that I can fully understand, while answering those questions I just asked then please do so. But while Christ was in the flesh it was fairly obvious that they were separate entities based on words spoken by Christ such as those.
francisdesales
Member
ORwarriOR said:
The Son of God, the Word, is the Logos, a perfect copy of the Father. A reflection. Is the Logos another God? No, He is a reflection and there is only one will of God. Thus, Jesus can say "I and the Father are One". He cannot do anything without the Father, thus, there is one divine will. But (without consideration of God's Spirit) another Person. What is crucial here is that WITHIN God, there is a relationship. God is one but not alone. The Father loves this perfect Son and this Son loves the Father. This love, as the logos, is personified in God, so we have three persons, but one Being, one Existence, one Mind, one Will.
When you have a thought in your mind about yourself, it is limited. It remains in your mind. But for God, we believe, that "thought" becomes personified, Wisdom Itself. Since God is beyond time, this thought is an everlasting single thought that begets the Son eternally. The logos, the intellect, of God is personified, so that John can write that the Son was with God and was God...
Now, if one was perfect reflection of God, doesn't it follow that this reflection is God HImself?
ORwarriOR said:
Understood, it is indeed difficult, but many years of reflection by the Church on the Scriptures and the Traditions taught by the Apostles have yielded this explanation, the best we have of our understanding of a Transcendent God that remains faithful to what we know from revelation.
As a human, Jesus also has a human will, and thus, He is speaking of the human will v the Divine will, which He, as God, cannot disagree with, since they are one. What is important here is that the early Church was able to discern that Jesus was much more than a messenger, but that He was God Himself, incarnate.
ORwarriOR said:
The "entities", we would call "person". However, there must also be provision for one BEING, since there cannot be more than one God. Person has a special meaning, one that is deeper than common undertstanding, where men are being and person simultaneously, and one in number in both departments.
I'm rushed for time, I'll try to give you a better explanation tommorrow.
Regards
watchman F
Member
Seems like nobody on either side had anything to dispute about this peace of truth ;)watchman F said:They are not difficult at all the problem is they are elementary. You seem to be having a hard time grasping things a child can grasp.Mysteryman said:Hi Watchman
If these questions are too difficult for you, then let Westtexas answer them for you. First, these question were not directed towards you. Second, this is an open board, so you could have given it your best.
If not answsering the questions is your best, then I would hate to see your worse effort.
But thanks anyways for your fruitless imput.
God did not die the man Jesus Christ did. Does that negate all the verses that say Jesus is deity? Of course not or else the Bible is false and we need to burn it, and find a new religion.
How could Jesus be God, and yet die without God dying? This is found in the duality of Christ Himself. He had two natures God, and man.
If Jesus was God, and if God is one then why does there seem to be a distinction between the Father and Jesus. Paul seperated them in every epistle he wrote. Look at Romans 1:1-4, I Corinthians 1:3, II Corinthians 1:2-3, Galatians 1:3-4, Ephesians 1:2-3, Philippians 1:2,Colossians 1:2-3, I Thessalonians 1:1, II Thessalonians 1:1-2, I Timothy 1:2, II Timothy 1:1-2, Titus 1:4, Philemon 1:3.
You see Jesus is God, fully God, 1 Timothy 1:1 and Titus 2:13 he was also man, fully man made in every way like unto us. Hebrews 2:17
It was the man Jesus Christ that was born of Mary as the Son of God. He lived as an example to show us how to live. He remained sinless, died for our sins, rose again in a glorified body, ascended to the Father and is now sitting on the right hand of God. References: Romans 1:3-4, II Corinthians 5:16-19, Ephesians 1:20-21, Philippians 2:5-11, Colossians 1:21-22, Timothy 2:5-6,
The man Jesus Christ chose to remain sinless, and died for our sins but it was God the Father who chose to become a man. St. John 1:1-3 & 14, The distinction between Jesus and the Father does not separate God the Father from God the Son. It does separate Jesus' divinity from his humanity. His humanity was the Son of God and his divinity was God, the Father himself.
The incarnation of God was actual and permanent. The man Jesus Christ will never cease to exist, just as you and I will never cease to exist and He will always be distinguished from the Father.
Mysteryman
Member
westtexas said:
Hi Westtexas
Show me one verse that is written --- "God the Son"
Is it not true, that Jesus the Christ is the -- "Son of God" ? So why twist it ? Change it ?
Mysteryman
Member
Seems like nobody on either side had anything to dispute about this peace of truth ;)[/quote:3ujz9hw3]watchman F said:[quote="watchman F":3ujz9hw3]They are not difficult at all the problem is they are elementary. You seem to be having a hard time grasping things a child can grasp.Mysteryman said:Hi Watchman
If these questions are too difficult for you, then let Westtexas answer them for you. First, these question were not directed towards you. Second, this is an open board, so you could have given it your best.
If not answsering the questions is your best, then I would hate to see your worse effort.
But thanks anyways for your fruitless imput.
God did not die the man Jesus Christ did. Does that negate all the verses that say Jesus is deity? Of course not or else the Bible is false and we need to burn it, and find a new religion.
How could Jesus be God, and yet die without God dying? This is found in the duality of Christ Himself. He had two natures God, and man.
If Jesus was God, and if God is one then why does there seem to be a distinction between the Father and Jesus. Paul seperated them in every epistle he wrote. Look at Romans 1:1-4, I Corinthians 1:3, II Corinthians 1:2-3, Galatians 1:3-4, Ephesians 1:2-3, Philippians 1:2,Colossians 1:2-3, I Thessalonians 1:1, II Thessalonians 1:1-2, I Timothy 1:2, II Timothy 1:1-2, Titus 1:4, Philemon 1:3.
You see Jesus is God, fully God, 1 Timothy 1:1 and Titus 2:13 he was also man, fully man made in every way like unto us. Hebrews 2:17
It was the man Jesus Christ that was born of Mary as the Son of God. He lived as an example to show us how to live. He remained sinless, died for our sins, rose again in a glorified body, ascended to the Father and is now sitting on the right hand of God. References: Romans 1:3-4, II Corinthians 5:16-19, Ephesians 1:20-21, Philippians 2:5-11, Colossians 1:21-22, Timothy 2:5-6,
The man Jesus Christ chose to remain sinless, and died for our sins but it was God the Father who chose to become a man. St. John 1:1-3 & 14, The distinction between Jesus and the Father does not separate God the Father from God the Son. It does separate Jesus' divinity from his humanity. His humanity was the Son of God and his divinity was God, the Father himself.
The incarnation of God was actual and permanent. The man Jesus Christ will never cease to exist, just as you and I will never cease to exist and He will always be distinguished from the Father.
----------------
Hi watchman
The reason I did not reply to this, is because of all the unsubstanciated comments you made. Like your comment - "it was God the Father who chose to become a man". Jesus told us that his Father was in heaven, not here on earth. And you, like the trinitarians, change scripture to suit your man made doctrine.
The Word of God clearly states that Jesus is the ---- Son of God
Yet, you, like trinitarians, write it this way >> --- God the Son
You never once have considered your unrighteous act of changing scirpture in this manner !
And how does one ascend to the Father , if that one is the Father ?
God told us Christians, that he gave us the Spirit of a sound mind.
Need I say more ?
dadof10
Member
Mysteryman said:
The word "God" is a type of Being, not a title. Certainly the "gods" had names, but so do humans and dogs. "God" is describing a species with certain attributes. You need to rethink this.
Correct.
The word "beget" implies that the begotten is of the same substance. That's why the word is used only for Jesus in a non-metaphorical way. He is the ONLY begotten One. That assumes He is not CREATED.
No. But God does BEGET God. Something of the same species can only "beget" another being of the same species. I know it was a stretch to use trees as an analogy for begetting, but if we can continue in this vein...The tree PRODUCES apples, but begets another apple tree. A better analogy would be man. We humans MAKE cars, houses, chairs, etc. but we only BEGET sons and daughters, which are of the same species as we.
Correct again.
"You are the Christ, the son of the living God".
Do you believe Christ was created or begotten?
Mysteryman
Member
dadof10 said:
The word "beget" implies that the begotten is of the same substance. That's why the word is used only for Jesus in a non-metaphorical way. He is the ONLY begotten One. That assumes He is not CREATED.
God is Spirit ! True, Jesus Christ was not created, I agree. He was born of the virgin Mary, and the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary. Jesus the Christ, is both, the son of man and the Son of God. Thus, his flesh is of man, which was taken from the earth. However, his seed is spiritual, which comes from his Father. Jesus the Christ is the seed Son of God - speaking spiritually.
No. But God does BEGET God. Something of the same species can only "beget" another being of the same species. I know it was a stretch to use trees as an analogy for begetting, but if we can continue in this vein...The tree PRODUCES apples, but begets another apple tree. A better analogy would be man. We humans MAKE cars, houses, chairs, etc. but we only BEGET sons and daughters, which are of the same species as we.
No again ! God does not begat God, and nowhere in scripture is this ever said ! God is Spirit, because He is a Spirit being = celestial. God is a title, not a species ! The Word of God tells us that Satan is the god of this world. It is used as a title, because it is a title !
Correct again.
"You are the Christ, the son of the living God".
Correct ! And who revealed this to Peter ? ?
Do you believe Christ was created or begotten?[/quote:2qbu23em]
Begotten
francisdesales
Member
shad said:
Savior. Yes. Who is called the Savior of the People of God in the Scriptures - OT?
God.
watchman F
Member
Mysteryman said:
----------------
Hi watchman
The reason I did not reply to this, is because of all the unsubstanciated comments you made. Like your comment - "it was God the Father who chose to become a man". Jesus told us that his Father was in heaven, not here on earth. And you, like the trinitarians, change scripture to suit your man made doctrine.
The Word of God clearly states that Jesus is the ---- Son of God
Yet, you, like trinitarians, write it this way >> --- God the Son
You never once have considered your unrighteous act of changing scirpture in this manner !
And how does one ascend to the Father , if that one is the Father ?
God told us Christians, that he gave us the Spirit of a sound mind.
Need I say more ?[/quote:tqa8qm7j]I do not believe Jesus is God the Son His deity is the Father himself. However I do believe scripture. Apparently you do not.
1st Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Mysteryman
Member
Mysteryman said:
----------------
Hi watchman
The reason I did not reply to this, is because of all the unsubstanciated comments you made. Like your comment - "it was God the Father who chose to become a man". Jesus told us that his Father was in heaven, not here on earth. And you, like the trinitarians, change scripture to suit your man made doctrine.
The Word of God clearly states that Jesus is the ---- Son of God
Yet, you, like trinitarians, write it this way >> --- God the Son
You never once have considered your unrighteous act of changing scirpture in this manner !
And how does one ascend to the Father , if that one is the Father ?
God told us Christians, that he gave us the Spirit of a sound mind.
Need I say more ?[/quote:1v13tjcn]I do not believe Jesus is God the Son His deity is the Father himself. However I do believe scripture. Apparently you do not.
1st Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.[/quote]
------------------------------------------------------------
Hi watchman :
Think reading glasses ! Get prescription spiritual reading glasses. Those carnal glasses you are wearing are not helpful when reading scripture. Your reading I Tim. 3:16 the way in which you want to see it.
"God was manifested in the flesh" ? Or should it read - "the Spirit of God was manifested in the flesh" ? There is a difference !
God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself. But there is no way that God totally was in Christ. It has to be a remnant, a portion of God. The heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain the fullness of God.
God manifested himself through His seed Son. The Spirit of/from God, is the seed of Christ. This portion of God was manifested in the flesh. His seed ! A son was promised, and God sent his Son . God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son.
If you remain illogical in your thinking. I don't see us ever having a logical conversation with one another.
Bless
watchman F
Member
This would be funny if it wasn't so ridiculous. You claim I am reading it with carnal when I believe it exactly as it is written God was manifest in the flesh. While you change the text to suit your view. To believe as I do all I have to do is accept the text as truth. You MUST CHANGE the text because your view does not line up with scripture as written.Mysteryman said:
Tell me Mm, who is being illogical? Should I believe you and the rest of your cult members? Or should I believe Gods word as it is written?
watchman F
Member
There is a difference.... The main difference is the first statement ''God was manifest in the flesh'' is what scripture says. The second statement''the spirit of God was manifest in the flesh'' is how you think it should read because of you preconceived false doctrine.Mysteryman said:
I stick with they way it reads in scripture
francisdesales
Member
shad said:
Shad,
Jesus SPECIFICALLY is called "Lord and Savior", a title ordinarily given to God alone...
Which OT figure also had this title? To a Jew of the first century, when one is called "Lord and Savior", what does that mean, Shad? What does that Jewish Christian think of such a titled person? A great teacher? A messenger from God? Or perhaps God in the flesh, who established His "tent" among us?
When a Jew is told he must have an absolute faith and love of a teacher, knowing and praying the Shema EVERYDAY as their background, what does that tell you of this person's claims?
Really, what we have in Scriptures inevitably leads us to declare in our Divine Liturgy: "JESUS IS GOD"!
Regards
Mysteryman
Member
watchman F said:
Hi Watchman:
If you read this verse literally, then you are not reading this verse with those prescription spiritual glasses !
The Word of God can not contradict itself. But the way you read scripture, you constantly contradict scripture !
I wasn't changing the way scripture was originally written. God himself never came to this earth ! Nor was it ever His intent to come to this earth ! God sent His Son !
Just like with the Prophets, the Spirit of God was upon them. A remant, or portion of God was upon them. God is a consuming God. If God himself came into this world, this world would be consumed by his brightness. There is no way in which the fullness of God came into this world !
Throughout scripture, it has always been the Spirit of God, which is just a remnant of God, a portion of God.
In Galatians 3:16 we read - "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not.; And to seeds, as of many ; but as of one, And to thy seed , which is Christ"
Only a portion of God came to this earth. That portion, was the promised seed of His Son. This portion is calle -- The Spirit of/from God.
After Jesus was baptized by John, and when Jesus came out of the water, God was was in heaven, who is also his Father, the voice from heaven ,said - "This is my beloved Son" <- Matthew 3:16 & 17 (the Spirit of God)
watchman F
Member
This is not insight it is blasphemy.shad said: