if one doest accept the trinity then what was jesus?

[Tina]

This is so simple yet you make it complicated. God and Jesus are one in their purposes. Jesus is one with His Father because He will do anything He is told to do. He is perfect example for us to imitate.

So you do understand His divinity... Hope the passage below clears the confusion.


Philippians 2:5-11
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[watchman F]

if one doest accept the trinity then what was jesus?

I like shad am not a trinitarian, but I WILL NOT deny the deity of Christ to answer Jason's question. Jesus was God incarnate the one and only true God ''God the Father'' incarnate as the Son.

 

[watchman F]

I am oppose to the trinity doctrine because trinitarians use it to ostracize non-trinitarians as non-believers. I have nothing in particular against any creed.

Thuis is exactly right trinitarians claim you must believe in the Trinity to be saved. This is simply not true. I believe Jesus to be God, but even that is not necessary for salvation. All one must do is believe that Jesus was the Messiah, the Lamb of God that He died for your sins, and rose again to gain your resurrection, and even more importantly than that you must then repent, truly repent of your sins, and then serve Jesus as Lord, enduring until the very end to be saved. Your pet doctrine can;t save me, and it can't damn me either.

 

[shad]

I believe Jesus to be God, but even that is not necessary for salvation. All one must do is believe that Jesus was the Messiah, the Lamb of God that He died for your sins, and rose again to gain your resurrection, and even more importantly than that you must then repent, truly repent of your sins, and then serve Jesus as Lord, enduring until the very end to be saved. Your pet doctrine can;t save me, and it can't damn me either.

God bless you for your child-like simple faith.

 

[shad]

This is so simple yet you make it complicated. God and Jesus are one in their purposes. Jesus is one with His Father because He will do anything He is told to do. He is perfect example for us to imitate.

So you do understand His divinity... Hope the passage below clears the confusion.

I am not confused, I know what is essential to be saved. We need forgiveness of our sins by accepting and obeying Jesus' commandments and teachings.

 

[Free]

This is so simple yet you make it complicated. God and Jesus are one in their purposes. Jesus is one with His Father because He will do anything He is told to do. He is perfect example for us to imitate.

If this was the case, then why did the Jews want to stone him and end up having him crucified?

I am oppose to the trinity doctrine because trinitarians use it to ostracize non-trinitarians as non-believers. I have nothing in particular against any creed.

Thuis is exactly right trinitarians claim you must believe in the Trinity to be saved. This is simply not true. I believe Jesus to be God, but even that is not necessary for salvation. All one must do is believe that Jesus was the Messiah, the Lamb of God that He died for your sins, and rose again to gain your resurrection, and even more importantly than that you must then repent, truly repent of your sins, and then serve Jesus as Lord, enduring until the very end to be saved. Your pet doctrine can;t save me, and it can't damn me either.

You honestly think that who Jesus is is irrelevant to all that he did for our salvation? Belief in Jesus cannot be separated from who he is.

 

[watchman F]

I believe Jesus to be God, but even that is not necessary for salvation. All one must do is believe that Jesus was the Messiah, the Lamb of God that He died for your sins, and rose again to gain your resurrection, and even more importantly than that you must then repent, truly repent of your sins, and then serve Jesus as Lord, enduring until the very end to be saved. Your pet doctrine can;t save me, and it can't damn me either.

God bless you for your child-like simple faith.

I am not sure if this is a complement or a back handed insult. My faith is child-like as in I believe everything my Father (God) tells me, but it is not at all simple. I come to any believe I hold through long periods of study being guided all along by the holy Spirit. The bible clearly shows that Jesus is God the Father incarnate many places in scripture here are just a few.

John 14
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

Philippians 2
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

1st Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Now to restate my point. I do not believe as many trinitarians do that you will go to Hell for your misunderstanding of scripture. As long as you have a truly repentant heart and serve Jesus as Lord.

 

[watchman F]

You honestly think that who Jesus is is irrelevant to all that he did for our salvation? Belief in Jesus cannot be separated from who he is.

I think your opinion of who He is is irrelevant to salvation. Knowing the Jesus of scripture is of the utmost importance.

 

[shad]

This is so simple yet you make it complicated. God and Jesus are one in their purposes. Jesus is one with His Father because He will do anything He is told to do. He is perfect example for us to imitate.

If this was the case, then why did the Jews want to stone him and end up having him crucified?

The Jews hated Him for many reasons. They did not like Him because He said He was sent by God and He is Son of God, because He said He could forgive sins, because He hung out with people they considered sinners, etc.

 

[watchman F]

This is so simple yet you make it complicated. God and Jesus are one in their purposes. Jesus is one with His Father because He will do anything He is told to do. He is perfect example for us to imitate.

If this was the case, then why did the Jews want to stone him and end up having him crucified?

The Jews hated Him for many reasons. They did not like Him because He said He was sent by God and He is Son of God, because He said He could forgive sins, because He hung out with people they considered sinners, etc.

A son of a human is human, the son of a lion is a lion, a son of a pig is a pig. what do you think the Son of God is?

 

[shad]

I am not sure if this is a complement or a back handed insult.

It was not a back-handed insult. Jesus says we cannot inherit the kingdom of God unless we have child-like faith.

I do not believe as many trinitarians do that you will go to Hell for your misunderstanding of scripture. As long as you have a truly repentant heart and serve Jesus as Lord.

I dont think I am misunderstanding the Scripture, but I can respect your position.

 

[shad]

A son of a human is human, the son of a lion is a lion, a son of a pig is a pig. what do you think the Son of God is?

I think what the Father is saying that Jesus is created by God Himself. Everything else is created by Jesus.

 

[Free]

You honestly think that who Jesus is is irrelevant to all that he did for our salvation? Belief in Jesus cannot be separated from who he is.

I think your opinion of who He is is irrelevant to salvation. Knowing the Jesus of scripture is of the utmost importance.

"Knowing the Jesus of Scripture is of the utmost importance" would also include knowing that he is God, would it not?

Jesus is the central figure of all of Scripture. The number of OT prophecies and foreshadowings of Christ is enormous; he is the one who died and rose again and who will return to judge. Do you really think that whether or not he is God is of no importance?

This is so simple yet you make it complicated. God and Jesus are one in their purposes. Jesus is one with His Father because He will do anything He is told to do. He is perfect example for us to imitate.

If this was the case, then why did the Jews want to stone him and end up having him crucified?

The Jews hated Him for many reasons. They did not like Him because He said He was sent by God and He is Son of God, because He said He could forgive sins, because He hung out with people they considered sinners, etc.

You missed all the parts where they accused him of blasphemy for making himself equal to God. If he was merely one in purpose with God, then the Jews would not have accused him of blasphemy and tried to stone him.

 

[westtexas]

The bible clearly shows that Jesus is God the Father incarnate many places in scripture here are just a few.

John 14
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

Philippians 2
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

1st Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Watchman, I was wondering if I could get you to clarify your beliefs to me a little bit. You state you don't believe in the Trinity yet you seem to believe in the equality of God and Jesus with your statement of the incarnate God above and then you quote scripture which shows the equality and the deity of Jesus. Thanks, Westtexas

 

[Mike]

I am oppose to the trinity doctrine because trinitarians use it to ostracize non-trinitarians as non-believers. I have nothing in particular against any creed.

Thuis is exactly right trinitarians claim you must believe in the Trinity to be saved. This is simply not true. I believe Jesus to be God, but even that is not necessary for salvation. All one must do is believe that Jesus was the Messiah, the Lamb of God that He died for your sins, and rose again to gain your resurrection, and even more importantly than that you must then repent, truly repent of your sins, and then serve Jesus as Lord, enduring until the very end to be saved. Your pet doctrine can;t save me, and it can't damn me either.

This is an interesting statement. I'm a Trinitarian, and while I believe firmly that this is the True nature of God, I wouldn't go so far as to say you need to believe it to be saved. I would say it is part of what defines a "Christian" and how we separate ourselves as believers in our faith. It gives us an identity. Watchman, you CLEARLY are a man after God's Heart. I have very limited knowledge of how He will reconcile his Truth with His Judgment.

This is where the nature of the Trinity gets very "un-simple" for me. How can one believe Jesus was and is God, but not recognize His distinct being from Him? I have only the understanding from a Trinitarian POV, so I'm asking honestly how you can come to this conclusion. You recognize that he is fully God. That's of utmost importance. I would never say you are on the other side of salvation. I simply feel that you are on the wrong side of understanding His nature.

 

[watchman F]

The bible clearly shows that Jesus is God the Father incarnate many places in scripture here are just a few.

John 14
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

Philippians 2
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

1st Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Watchman, I was wondering if I could get you to clarify your beliefs to me a little bit. You state you don't believe in the Trinity yet you seem to believe in the equality of God and Jesus with your statement of the incarnate God above and then you quote scripture which shows the equality and the deity of Jesus. Thanks, Westtexas

Sure westtexas. Trinitarians believe Jesus is ''God the Son'' incarnate, as if the Son is a separate person from the Father. I believe Jesus is God Himself the one and only true God, ''God the Father'' incarnate.

 

[watchman F]

I am oppose to the trinity doctrine because trinitarians use it to ostracize non-trinitarians as non-believers. I have nothing in particular against any creed.

Thuis is exactly right trinitarians claim you must believe in the Trinity to be saved. This is simply not true. I believe Jesus to be God, but even that is not necessary for salvation. All one must do is believe that Jesus was the Messiah, the Lamb of God that He died for your sins, and rose again to gain your resurrection, and even more importantly than that you must then repent, truly repent of your sins, and then serve Jesus as Lord, enduring until the very end to be saved. Your pet doctrine can;t save me, and it can't damn me either.

This is an interesting statement. I'm a Trinitarian, and while I believe firmly that this is the True nature of God, I wouldn't go so far as to say you need to believe it to be saved. I would say it is part of what defines a "Christian" and how we separate ourselves as believers in our faith. It gives us an identity. Watchman, you CLEARLY are a man after God's Heart. I have very limited knowledge of how He will reconcile his Truth with His Judgment.

This is where the nature of the Trinity gets very "un-simple" for me. How can one believe Jesus was and is God, but not recognize His distinct being from Him? I have only the understanding from a Trinitarian POV, so I'm asking honestly how you can come to this conclusion. You recognize that he is fully God. That's of utmost importance. I would never say you are on the other side of salvation. I simply feel that you are on the wrong side of understanding His nature.

Thanks for the question Mike, and the respect in which you asked it.

When God assumed a human existence with a complete human mind, psyche, will, and emotion etc. He was distinct from the Father while he continued to exist as the Father in Heaven. As a genuine human being, Jesus was and is distinct from the Father. This is because of His humanity not because He is the second person of the Trinity. While I confess that the deity of the Son did pre-exist incarnation, I do not see that deity as the second person of the Trinity, known as " God the Son ", and separate from the Father or Holy Spirit, but rather as the uni-personal God of the old testament. Yahweh, the Father, the Great I Am.

 

[watchman F]

You honestly think that who Jesus is is irrelevant to all that he did for our salvation? Belief in Jesus cannot be separated from who he is.

I think your opinion of who He is is irrelevant to salvation. Knowing the Jesus of scripture is of the utmost importance.

"Knowing the Jesus of Scripture is of the utmost importance" would also include knowing that he is God, would it not?

Depends what if you kow this Jesus.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Shad seems to believe on this Jesus. Do you say that this damns him to Hell?

 

[westtexas]

I believe Jesus is God Himself the one and only true God, ''God the Father'' incarnate.

Thanks, I read your quote in Christianity and other religions after I asked this question. I personally believe in the Trinity but am not here to debate or argue, just curious how everyone defends their beliefs. How do you justify a "Oneness" belief in light of verses such as the baptism of Jesus or Jesus' transfiguration, when Jesus is visible but you also have a voice from heaven which says "This is my son"?

God bless

 

[watchman F]

I believe Jesus is God Himself the one and only true God, ''God the Father'' incarnate.

Thanks, I read your quote in Christianity and other religions after I asked this question. I personally believe in the Trinity but am not here to debate or argue, just curious how everyone defends their beliefs. How do you justify a "Oneness" belief in light of verses such as the baptism of Jesus or Jesus' transfiguration, when Jesus is visible but you also have a voice from heaven which says "This is my son"?

God bless

If you read my response to Mike it might help you to see how I reconcile to distinction between the Father and Son. However I will give this short explanation.

God is one and has always been one. Jesus is the man God became. Jesus did not exist before incarnation as God the Son. In His pre-incarnate state, He existed as the Father, God Himself. Now the two of them are in heaven together, God the Father and the man he became, the Son of God, Jesus Christ. The problem is that when I say the Father became a man people think it means I believe he stopped being an eternal Spirit after incarnation and that Heaven was empty. This is not what I believe. God the Father continued to exist as a transcendent, unlimited Spirit, while also becoming a man. The Father did not become confined to a human existence. It is not as though the omnipresent Spirit of God transformed Himself into a man, to the exclusion of His existence as the Holy Spirit, but rather remained The God of Heaven and Earth while also walking this Earth as a man. Jesus is both fully God ''The Father'', and Fully man ''The Son''. When Jesus was baptized the Father spoke from Heaven and sent Jesus His Spirit. this doesn't not confirm the Trinity nor contradict my belief.