if one doest accept the trinity then what was jesus?

[shad]

#1 The Father is God, Jesus is God, The Holy Spirit is God.
#2 However Jesus Christ is also the Father and the Father is the Holy Spirit.
#3 In other words there is one God the Father, who came in a body (the Son) and who is the Eternal Spirit (the Holy Spirit). So we teach that the Father came in the flesh as Jesus, and is a Spirit ''The Holy Spirit''.
#4 So it is similar to the Trinity doctrine in that we have 3 who are one, but Oneness doctrine says that the 3 ''persons'' are not separate, but actually the same 1, who is God.

How can you say Jesus is the Father when Jesus says His Father sent Him to earth?

You won't say you are sent when you just came down yourself. If He meant to say that He was sent by Himself, He would say "I came down to be the Lamb," not that He was sent by anybody. It is just an illogical way to make a statement, "I was sent by myself".

 

[watchman F]

#1 The Father is God, Jesus is God, The Holy Spirit is God.
#2 However Jesus Christ is also the Father and the Father is the Holy Spirit.
#3 In other words there is one God the Father, who came in a body (the Son) and who is the Eternal Spirit (the Holy Spirit). So we teach that the Father came in the flesh as Jesus, and is a Spirit ''The Holy Spirit''.
#4 So it is similar to the Trinity doctrine in that we have 3 who are one, but Oneness doctrine says that the 3 ''persons'' are not separate, but actually the same 1, who is God.

How can you say Jesus is the Father when Jesus says His Father sent Him to earth?

You won't say you are sent when you just came down yourself. If He meant to say that He was sent by Himself, He would say "I came down to be the Lamb," not that He was sent by anybody. It is just an illogical way to make a statement, "I was sent by myself".

Jesus laid down His deity to become a man as Philippians says. So indeed the Father did send Him

 

[shad]

quote]Jesus laid down His deity to become a man as Philippians says. So indeed the Father did send Him

How does that even make sense??? This is ridiculous.

According to your interpretation, you say Jesus is God the Father Himself. Your interpretation is even more ridiculous than the doctrine of trinity.

I am sorry that I said your faith is child like. I misjudged you because you just totality dont make sense at all in this.

 

[ORwarriOR]

I guess my biggest stumbling block in understanding is why would Jesus pray to God, and ask why he has forsaken him when they are one in the same.

 

[shad]

I guess my biggest stumbling block in understanding is why would Jesus pray to God, and ask why he has forsaken him when they are one in the same.

Thank you worrior. How about it watchmanF? They seem to believe Jesus(God) prayed to Himself(God).

This oneness doctrine is just another gimmicky doctrine, it seems.

 

[watchman F]

quote]Jesus laid down His deity to become a man as Philippians says. So indeed the Father did send Him

How does that even make sense??? This is ridiculous.

According to your interpretation, you say Jesus is God the Father Himself. Your interpretation is even more ridiculous than the doctrine of trinity.

I am sorry that I said your faith is child like. I misjudged you because you just totality dont make sense at all in this.

Ridiculous? It is word for word what scripture says, as I have already posted.

Philippians 2
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men

Whether or not it makes ''sense'' to you is really irrelevant. What matters to me is what the Bible says.

 

[Sinthesis]

Given a choice, why would anyone choose to place their hope for salvation in the hands of a mere man?

 

[watchman F]

I guess my biggest stumbling block in understanding is why would Jesus pray to God, and ask why he has forsaken him when they are one in the same.

Thank you worrior. How about it watchmanF? They seem to believe Jesus(God) prayed to Himself(God).

This oneness doctrine is just another gimmicky doctrine, it seems.

Easy, because just like you or me while He walked this Earth He was fully man.

Hebrews 2
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Here is your problem to hold to all the verses that say that Jesus was a man and distinct from the Father, yet you ignore all the verses that say He was God and equal to or plainly state that He was/is the Father incarnate. It doesn't have to be one or the other as all things are possible with God. If the Bible say He is God then He is is God, if the bible says He is a man then He is a man, if the bible says He is both then He is both. Anything less is created a false Jesus of your own understanding instead of the Jesus of scripture.

 

[ORwarriOR]

I think based on a lot of this I can see where the trinity idea comes from. However I still don't' feel right worshiping the name Jesus; I don't know, even if Jesus was divine it was still God in human form. I would rather just worship God, and if they are one in the same I'm sure he won't mind. It's one of those things that I can't completely wrap my mind around so I'll accept that Jesus is my savior and God is God. I don't see the harm in believing otherwise if it just creates confusion.

 

[shad]

Given a choice, why would anyone choose to place their hope for salvation in the hands of a mere man?

Jesus is not a mere man, He is now Spirit being and sitting right hand of Almighty God. He accomplished His mission given by His Father.

Do you call that a mere man? I don't. He is more than worthy enough to be my Lord.

 

[shad]

I think based on a lot of this I can see where the trinity idea comes from. However I still don't' feel right worshiping the name Jesus; I don't know, even if Jesus was divine it was still God in human form. I would rather just worship God, and if they are one in the same I'm sure he won't mind. It's one of those things that I can't completely wrap my mind around so I'll accept that Jesus is my savior and God is God. I don't see the harm in believing otherwise if it just creates confusion.

You are absolutely right. Jesus says we know them by their fruit, not by their doctrines. Jesus does not care about lipservers.

 

[shad]

Here is your problem to hold to all the verses that say that Jesus was a man and distinct from the Father, yet you ignore all the verses that say He was God and equal to or plainly state that He was/is the Father incarnate. It doesn't have to be one or the other as all things are possible with God. If the Bible say He is God then He is is God, if the bible says He is a man then He is a man, if the bible says He is both then He is both. Anything less is created a false Jesus of your own understanding instead of the Jesus of scripture.

I am sorry but it seems clear to me you are twisting around the Scriptures and you are not following the whole concept of the Bible.

 

[watchman F]

I think based on a lot of this I can see where the trinity idea comes from. However I still don't' feel right worshiping the name Jesus; I don't know, even if Jesus was divine it was still God in human form. I would rather just worship God, and if they are one in the same I'm sure he won't mind. It's one of those things that I can't completely wrap my mind around so I'll accept that Jesus is my savior and God is God. I don't see the harm in believing otherwise if it just creates confusion.

Is there harm in it? Hmmm, depends on what Jesus meant when He said....

Matthew 10:33 whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
or
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

So two question arise what must we deny to deny Him, and who is He? The pharrisees asked them the same question and Jesus answers them....

John 8:25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

So who does Jesus say He is from the beginning. Well lets see what the WORD say in the beginning.

Genesis 1:1 In the Beginning God

Jesus has told us who He is from the beginning can we deny it without denying Him. You tell me?

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

 

[watchman F]

Here is your problem to hold to all the verses that say that Jesus was a man and distinct from the Father, yet you ignore all the verses that say He was God and equal to or plainly state that He was/is the Father incarnate. It doesn't have to be one or the other as all things are possible with God. If the Bible say He is God then He is is God, if the bible says He is a man then He is a man, if the bible says He is both then He is both. Anything less is created a false Jesus of your own understanding instead of the Jesus of scripture.

I am sorry but it seems clear to me you are twisting around the Scriptures and you are not following the whole concept of the Bible.

Actually just the opposite I am posting them as they read. You refuse to accept the truth. It seems you are hard on people when they cannot see the clear truth yet you do the same. Will your misunderstanding of the divine nature of Christ send you to Hell probably not. However the hardness of your heart will. You harden your heart to this clearly stated truth whos to say what else you have hardened your heart to.

My suggestion to you is to go back read through this thread study the verses given as well as others you may know then asked the Holy Spirit to lead you to the truth. Soften your heart to receive whatever truth He speaks to you if you do this then you should come out on the other side with the truth.

Isiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace

Who does the prophecy say Jesus is, well among other things it says He is the everlasting Father, the Mighty God.

 

[westtexas]

Who does the prophecy say Jesus is, well among other things it says He is the everlasting Father, the Mighty God.

Watchman, your position truly mystifies me. While I believe in the Trinity and Shad and MM do not, thats OK, I disagree but respect their beliefs. I really do not understand your beliefs though. The majority of your posts contain material such as you have posted above, Jesus is the Mighty God, you speak of the deity of Jesus Christ, you speak of the co-existence of Jesus Christ and the Father in heaven, you say God became flesh. Your statements and the title "non-trinitarian" seem to counter each other.

God bless

 

[watchman F]

Who does the prophecy say Jesus is, well among other things it says He is the everlasting Father, the Mighty God.

Watchman, your position truly mystifies me. While I believe in the Trinity and Shad and MM do not, thats OK, I disagree but respect their beliefs. I really do not understand your beliefs though. The majority of your posts contain material such as you have posted above, Jesus is the Mighty God, you speak of the deity of Jesus Christ, you speak of the co-existence of Jesus Christ and the Father in heaven, you say God became flesh. Your statements and the title "non-trinitarian" seem to counter each other.

God bless

Well I tried to explain it last night. However in its most simplistic form I will explain the difference between my belief and the trinitarian belief.

Tinitarians believe that ''God the Son'' a separate person of the Godhead became man.

I believe God the Father became a man, and that the distinction between the Father, and Son lies in the dual nature of Christ.

I do not believe in the one God 3 separate persons explanation of the Trinity.

P.S. To be perfectly honest without trying to be rude, Most ''Trinitarians'' are not truly trinitarian, they are oneness like me without knowing it, some are modalist without realizing it, and most are polytheistic while refusing it. Your inability to see my belief as different from yours may place you in the oneness without knowing it catagry.


Let me ask you this do you see Jesus as a separate being from the Father?

 

[shad]

Actually just the opposite I am posting them as they read. You refuse to accept the truth.

I can say the same the same thing to you, too. I dont try to understand who interprets the Scriptures more complicated than it actually is. There are too many denominations that have gimmicky doctrines to impress other believers that implying they have the truth. And your denomination seems to be one of them.

That's why I dont belong to any denomination or groups.

 

[westtexas]

However in its most simplistic form I will explain the difference between my belief and the trinitarian belief.

Tinitarians believe that ''God the Son'' a separate person of the Godhead became man.

I believe God the Father became a man, and that the distinction between the Father, and Son lies in the dual nature of Christ.

I do not believe in the one God 3 separate persons explanation of the Trinity.

P.S. To be perfectly honest without trying to be rude, Most ''Trinitarians'' are not truly trinitarian, they are oneness like me without knowing it, some are modalist without realizing it, and most are polytheistic while refusing it. Your inability to see my belief as different from yours may place you in the oneness without knowing it catagry.


Let me ask you this do you see Jesus as a separate being from the Father?

Let me explain my beliefs as simply as I can. I appreciate your responses. To a certain extent I believe in the monotheism of the OT. However, I believe this one God is the union of three separate entitys, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. So, to answer your question as simply as I can, Yes- I do believe that Jesus and God are separate beings--and both equally God.

And I also have a slightly different concept of the dual nature of Christ than you do. When I think of this dual nature, I think of when "the Word became flesh" and while Christ walked this earth--He was both fully God and fully man.

God bless and thanks for the responses

 

[ORwarriOR]

I think based on a lot of this I can see where the trinity idea comes from. However I still don't' feel right worshiping the name Jesus; I don't know, even if Jesus was divine it was still God in human form. I would rather just worship God, and if they are one in the same I'm sure he won't mind. It's one of those things that I can't completely wrap my mind around so I'll accept that Jesus is my savior and God is God. I don't see the harm in believing otherwise if it just creates confusion.

Is there harm in it? Hmmm, depends on what Jesus meant when He said....

Matthew 10:33 whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
or
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

So two question arise what must we deny to deny Him, and who is He? The pharrisees asked them the same question and Jesus answers them....

John 8:25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

So who does Jesus say He is from the beginning. Well lets see what the WORD say in the beginning.

1:1 In the Beginning God

Jesus has told us who He is from the beginning can we deny it without denying Him. You tell me?

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

I'm certainly not denying Jesus as my Lord and Savior :/

 

[watchman F]

However in its most simplistic form I will explain the difference between my belief and the trinitarian belief.

Tinitarians believe that ''God the Son'' a separate person of the Godhead became man.

I believe God the Father became a man, and that the distinction between the Father, and Son lies in the dual nature of Christ.

I do not believe in the one God 3 separate persons explanation of the Trinity.

P.S. To be perfectly honest without trying to be rude, Most ''Trinitarians'' are not truly trinitarian, they are oneness like me without knowing it, some are modalist without realizing it, and most are polytheistic while refusing it. Your inability to see my belief as different from yours may place you in the oneness without knowing it catagry.


Let me ask you this do you see Jesus as a separate being from the Father?

Let me explain my beliefs as simply as I can. I appreciate your responses. To a certain extent I believe in the monotheism of the OT. However, I believe this one God is the union of three separate entitys, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. So, to answer your question as simply as I can, Yes- I do believe that Jesus and God are separate beings--and both equally God.

And I also have a slightly different concept of the dual nature of Christ than you do. When I think of this dual nature, I think of when "the Word became flesh" and while Christ walked this earth--He was both fully God and fully man.

God bless and thanks for the responses

This is where my non trinitarianism comes in. I do not see Jesus' deity as a separate person from God, but I see God as one being. I see His humanity as distinct from His deity.

You see Jesus' deity as God the Son, and His humanity as the Son of God. I see His Deity as God the Father, and His humanity as the Son of God.

You see God as 3 separate beings, I see Him as One.