if one doest accept the trinity then what was jesus?

[westtexas]

[quote="watchman F":1b4h6ogu]

I believe Jesus is God Himself the one and only true God, ''God the Father'' incarnate.

Thanks, I read your quote in Christianity and other religions after I asked this question. I personally believe in the Trinity but am not here to debate or argue, just curious how everyone defends their beliefs. How do you justify a "Oneness" belief in light of verses such as the baptism of Jesus or Jesus' transfiguration, when Jesus is visible but you also have a voice from heaven which says "This is my son"?

God bless

If you read my response to Mike it might help you to see how I reconcile to distinction between the Father and Son. However I will give this short explanation.

God is one and has always been one. Jesus is the man God became. Jesus did not exist before incarnation as God the Son. In His pre-incarnate state, He existed as the Father, God Himself. Now the two of them are in heaven together, God the Father and the man he became, the Son of God, Jesus Christ. The problem is that when I say the Father became a man people think it means I believe he stopped being an eternal Spirit after incarnation and that Heaven was empty. This is not what I believe. God the Father continued to exist as a transcendent, unlimited Spirit, while also becoming a man. The Father did not become confined to a human existence. It is not as though the omnipresent Spirit of God transformed Himself into a man, to the exclusion of His existence as the Holy Spirit, but rather remained The God of Heaven and Earth while also walking this Earth as a man. Jesus is both fully God ''The Father'', and Fully man ''The Son''. When Jesus was baptized the Father spoke from Heaven and sent Jesus His Spirit. this doesn't not confirm the Trinity nor contradict my belief.[/quote:1b4h6ogu]
My one finger hunt and peck got me. I was typing while you answered Mike. I should have read it before I posted. Thanks

 

[westtexas]

God is one and has always been one. Jesus is the man God became. Jesus did not exist before incarnation as God the Son. In His pre-incarnate state, He existed as the Father, God Himself. Now the two of them are in heaven together, God the Father and the man he became, the Son of God, Jesus Christ. The problem is that when I say the Father became a man people think it means I believe he stopped being an eternal Spirit after incarnation and that Heaven was empty. This is not what I believe. God the Father continued to exist as a transcendent, unlimited Spirit, while also becoming a man. The Father did not become confined to a human existence. It is not as though the omnipresent Spirit of God transformed Himself into a man, to the exclusion of His existence as the Holy Spirit, but rather remained The God of Heaven and Earth while also walking this Earth as a man. Jesus is both fully God ''The Father'', and Fully man ''The Son''. When Jesus was baptized the Father spoke from Heaven and sent Jesus His Spirit. this doesn't not confirm the Trinity nor contradict my belief.

If the 2--God the Father and God the Son--now co-exist in Heaven, and He exists as the Holy Spirit to act as our comforter here on earth, are these beliefs not Trinitarian?

 

[jasoncran]

That doesn't mean He is God.
but we can ONLY worship the father, and there's the verse where the Lord says i will share my glory with no other.hmm if jesus shares the Glory of the father, how then he can he not be God?

 

[shad]

You missed all the parts where they accused him of blasphemy for making himself equal to God.

You see, Jesus did not say He is equal to God. I know trinitarians twist around when Jesus says He is not equal to God. We just have to wait and see who is spreading lies.

Jesus makes it clear that He is submissive to His Father through out the New Testament clearly.

 

[shad]

but we can ONLY worship the father, and there's the verse where the Lord says i will share my glory with no other.hmm if jesus shares the Glory of the father, how then he can he not be God?

This is another not so clear statement, but it is not important we worship Jesus too. I know God will forgive us if we worship Jesus because He treasures Jesus so much. But Jesus says to pray to the Father in Jesus name. You cannot be both the Father and the Son. You cannot imagine from OT that God is implying the trinity when He says God is only one.

Jason, you keep going round and round kind of discussion, so I have to end it with you.

 

[jasoncran]

john 1
vs 1 "IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, THE WORD WITH GOD, AND WORD WAS GOD"

vs 2 " THE SAME WAS IN THE BEGGINIING WITH GOD."

vs 14 " AND THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, AND DWELT AMONG US,(AND WE BEHELD HIS GLORY, THE GLORY OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER,) FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH

hmm that makes Jesus more then a man, in fact says he was God who become Flesh, and had Glory. he was equal to God in these statements.

no, if the lord is only a man, and not God then how can we worship him with the father?

when its says in isaiah that the lord says he wont share his glory with no other.

 

[Mysteryman]

john 1
vs 1 "IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, THE WORD WITH GOD, AND WORD WAS GOD"

vs 2 " THE SAME WAS IN THE BEGGINIING WITH GOD."

vs 14 " AND THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, AND DWELT AMONG US,(AND WE BEHELD HIS GLORY, THE GLORY OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER,) FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH

hmm that makes Jesus more then a man, in fact says he was God who become Flesh, and had Glory. he was equal to God in these statements.

no, if the lord is only a man, and not God then how can we worship him with the father?

when its says in isaiah that the lord says he wont share his glory with no other.

Hi Jason :

I deal with this in detail in my thread on chapter one of the gospel of John , in apologetics and theology.

 

[jasoncran]

i have observed that argument with free. that verse is what supports the idea that jesus is God.

btw who can the father in heaven by the first and the last,(isiah wrote that) and in revalation jesus say i am the alpha and the omega, the first and the last?hmm

one must be lying

note to all, till my salvation i never believed in the trinity. only read what the bible plainly states in its verses and what the nature of the Lord is revealad. for me it was divine revalation and preaching that later confirmed it.

 

[Mysteryman]

i have observed that argument with free. that verse is what supports the idea that jesus is God.

btw who can the father in heaven by the first and the last,(isiah wrote that) and in revalation jesus say i am the alpha and the omega, the first and the last?hmm

one must be lying

note to all, till my salvation i never believed in the trinity. only read what the bible plainly states in its verses and what the nature of the Lord is revealad. for me it was divine revalation and preaching that later confirmed it.

Hi Jason :

I am on the opposite side of the spectrum, in that I was raised to believe in the trinity, and now God has opened up my eyes of understanding. God is not illogical, so logic plays a major role here.

There is no lie within scripture, only misunderstanding. First and last of what ?

Here is the lie, in case anyone is interested.

Truth - Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God.

Lie - Jesus is God

Truth - The Holy Spirit is the Father. The Holy Spirit is what God is. It was the Holy Spirit that overshadowed Mary.

Lie - The Holy Spirit is a person, the Father is a person

Truth - God is Spirit = Holy Spirit

Lie - God became man (God is not a man -- that he should lie )

Truth - The Father and the Son being one , is only in purpose (so its figurative, not literal )

Lie - The Father and the Son are one, (literal meaning)

Truth - Jesus Christ has a God, who is his Father

Lie - Jesus is God thus making him all three - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

Truth - Jesus Christ did not come to do his own will , but the will of the Father who is also his God.

Lie - Jesus Christ is God, so he came to do his own will and the will of himself

I could go on and on with these truths and lies.

Bless

 

[shad]

Truth - Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God.

I agree.

Lie - Jesus is God

I agree

Truth - The Holy Spirit is the Father. The Holy Spirit is what God is. It was the Holy Spirit that overshadowed Mary.

I dis agree, Jesus sent the Holy Spirt to His disiples. So I conclude th HP is helper of Both God and Jesus.

Lie - The Holy Spirit is a person, the Father is a person

I agree.

Truth - God is Spirit = Holy Spirit

I agree

Lie - God became man (God is not a man -- that he should lie )

I agree.

Truth - The Father and the Son being one , is only in purpose (so its figurative, not literal )

I totally agree.

Lie - The Father and the Son are one, (literal meaning)

I agree.

Truth - Jesus Christ has a God, who is his Father

I agree.

Lie - Jesus is God thus making him all three - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

I agree.

Truth - Jesus Christ did not come to do his own will , but the will of the Father who is also his God.

totally.

Lie - Jesus Christ is God, so he came to do his own will and the will of himself

agreed.

It seems that you and I are in the same page.

 

[jasoncran]

so, mm and shad, since you two went there

what part of the bible is real after all. if the bible is wrong in the GREEK, and the HEBREW then what?

so if the Lord can keep his own word, then we arent saved. surely that he can see into the future and lead men to write what he wants.

i'm sorry mm. but i aint buying it? you believe in the rapture , that like the trinity isnt in the bible, but is found in principle.

so i guess when John bowed to the vision of christ he was worshipping an angel. then
and that a sin
as in exodus and deutormony its states that we arent to worship an angel in heavan or on the earth.

interesting.

 

[shad]

I will let MM handle your questions. I don't have a patience with circular arguments.

thanks.

 

[jasoncran]

I will let MM handle your questions. I don't have a patience with circular arguments.

thanks.

patients is a virtue.

two, if we throw away verses, that support this idea or any other. then we need to look at what the WHOLE effect of it does, ie the diety of christ.

you claim that its not needed to be a scholar, yet mm attacks(to whit you agree) and he uses greek to do that.

if men lie, then did paul, john. and isiah were lying when the wrote they wrote.

please learn how to reconcile this, not just make statements i'm right and youre wrong

i dont know greek and hebrew yet just what the bible i have read and can see the dilemma you and mm are in.

 

[Mysteryman]

so, mm and shad, since you two went there

what part of the bible is real after all. if the bible is wrong in the GREEK, and the HEBREW then what?

so if the Lord can keep his own word, then we arent saved. surely that he can see into the future and lead men to write what he wants.

i'm sorry mm. but i aint buying it? you believe in the rapture , that like the trinity isnt in the bible, but is found in principle.

so i guess when John bowed to the vision of christ he was worshipping an angel. then
and that a sin
as in exodus and deutormony its states that we arent to worship an angel in heavan or on the earth.

interesting.

Hi Jason :

Just so there is no misunderstanding. The word "rapture" is not in our bibles. But the words - "gathering together", are -> II Thess. 2:1 , and In I Thess. 4:17 it is the words - "caught up together". I personnaly do not like the word "rapture".

The reason the word trinity is not in any bible, is because it does not exist in scripture.

If I were to tell you that Jesus is coming to gather up the church. I have solid ground from scripture to stand upon. But no one has solid ground from scripture when they use the word trinity. Or when they say that Jesus is God, and especially those who say that Jesus is fully God (and you know who you are ).

The Word of God can not and does not contradict itself. Nor is God a God of confusion. The reason Jesus Christ is called the Son of God, is because that is what he is, a Son, not of man, but of God. And most definitely not a son of himself ! God is a God of sound mind. We should strive to be of sound mind. And not allow the adversary of God to deter our minds in any way. Prayer and whorship of the one true God will bring this about. Being unfaithful in whorshipping God in Spirit and in truth, will blind spiritually.

This is why we who do not believe in the trinity, nor do we believe that Jesus is God. We are here to help those who have been deceived into this false doctrine. We believe all those who strive towards righteousness are our brethren. We encourage, and never discourage. We uplift, we do not put down.

In the unity of the Spirit we must believe the same, we must be of the same mind, and that mind is in Christ. In the knowledge of the revealed Mystery, which is for obedience of our faith - Romans 16:26

 

[shad]

patients is a virtue.

Of course it is. However, Jesus says not to throw pearl to the pigs. If we engage in circular arguments, we are throwing away pearls.

 

[jasoncran]

but shad, if i like the mormon say that the bible says the satan and jesus were angels and were brothers. and that we could worship both, and choose to ignore those verses that say otherwise, what then

you claim that i'm using circular arguments, when i am not, you cant defend your position as honeslty you dont know what the position entails.

if the lord jesus isn christ, and what is he in heaven, then if an an archangel?

hmm. let see heres a dilemma

exodus 20:4

with revalation 1:17, and take note of what the Lord did say to him 'I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST".

so how can John worship a resurectted spirit in heaven?

please, shad, address the question and answer.

 

[shad]

but shad, if i like the mormon say that the bible says the satan and jesus were angels and were brothers. and that we could worship both, and choose to ignore those verses that say otherwise, what then

I dont know much about the Mormon but I know they are pro-military so they are not worth considering for me. They are just another denomination just like any other denominations to me.

you claim that i'm using circular arguments, when i am not, you cant defend your position as honeslty you dont know what the position entails.

It is your opinion.

if the lord jesus isn christ, and what is he in heaven, then if an an archangel?

Jesus is our Lord. But He is not God.

exodus 20:4
with revalation 1:17, and take note of what the Lord did say to him 'I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST".

I believe MM can explain this to you. I dont have patience with what is already been discussed tons of times.

so how can John worship a resurectted spirit in heaven?

the same as the above. Better yet, look for MM's thread and find out how he explains them. I am in agreement with MM 99% regard to God and Jesus' relationship, it seems.

 

[Free]

[quote="watchman F":3tyvv5ta]I think your opinion of who He is is irrelevant to salvation. Knowing the Jesus of scripture is of the utmost importance.

"Knowing the Jesus of Scripture is of the utmost importance" would also include knowing that he is God, would it not?

Depends what if you kow this Jesus.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Shad seems to believe on this Jesus. Do you say that this damns him to Hell?[/quote:3tyvv5ta]
Again, you want to separate belief in Jesus from who he is but that cannot be done.

Jesus makes it clear that He is submissive to His Father through out the New Testament clearly.

And yet I've stated many times to you that this in no way means Jesus isn't God.

john 1
vs 1 "IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, THE WORD WITH GOD, AND WORD WAS GOD"

vs 2 " THE SAME WAS IN THE BEGGINIING WITH GOD."

vs 14 " AND THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, AND DWELT AMONG US,(AND WE BEHELD HIS GLORY, THE GLORY OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER,) FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH

hmm that makes Jesus more then a man, in fact says he was God who become Flesh, and had Glory. he was equal to God in these statements.

no, if the lord is only a man, and not God then how can we worship him with the father?

when its says in isaiah that the lord says he wont share his glory with no other.

Hi Jason :

I deal with this in detail in my thread on chapter one of the gospel of John , in apologetics and theology.

Very inadequately. I showed you where you were wrong, according to what the Greek states, but you ignored it.


I'm bowing out. There have been too many discussions regarding the Trinity where the trinitarian arguments are largely ignored or glossed over. Jesus is God and that is central to salvation.

 

[shad]

Jesus makes it clear that He is submissive to His Father through out the New Testament clearly.

And yet I've stated many times to you that this in no way means Jesus isn't God.

How can you say Jesus is God when He is not equal with His Father? The Scripture clearly states God is only one.

 

[watchman F]

God is one and has always been one. Jesus is the man God became. Jesus did not exist before incarnation as God the Son. In His pre-incarnate state, He existed as the Father, God Himself. Now the two of them are in heaven together, God the Father and the man he became, the Son of God, Jesus Christ. The problem is that when I say the Father became a man people think it means I believe he stopped being an eternal Spirit after incarnation and that Heaven was empty. This is not what I believe. God the Father continued to exist as a transcendent, unlimited Spirit, while also becoming a man. The Father did not become confined to a human existence. It is not as though the omnipresent Spirit of God transformed Himself into a man, to the exclusion of His existence as the Holy Spirit, but rather remained The God of Heaven and Earth while also walking this Earth as a man. Jesus is both fully God ''The Father'', and Fully man ''The Son''. When Jesus was baptized the Father spoke from Heaven and sent Jesus His Spirit. this doesn't not confirm the Trinity nor contradict my belief.

If the 2--God the Father and God the Son--now co-exist in Heaven, and He exists as the Holy Spirit to act as our comforter here on earth, are these beliefs not Trinitarian?

Nope God the Father is the holy Spirit, not separate from Him.

#1 The Father is God, Jesus is God, The Holy Spirit is God.
#2 However Jesus Christ is also the Father and the Father is the Holy Spirit.
#3 In other words there is one God the Father, who came in a body (the Son) and who is the Eternal Spirit (the Holy Spirit). So we teach that the Father came in the flesh as Jesus, and is a Spirit ''The Holy Spirit''.
#4 So it is similar to the Trinity doctrine in that we have 3 who are one, but Oneness doctrine says that the 3 ''persons'' are not separate, but actually the same 1, who is God.