if one doest accept the trinity then what was jesus?

[Sinthesis]

Ok, I'm going to take this down a notch.

It's Friday night. My wife wants me to watch a movie and I'm on my 3rd beer which is my limit. This is just my opinion and thought to this whole thing. Might be a little silly and light.

Dude! Time to put down the beer...this is Saturday night! :type

 

[Danus]

Ok, I'm going to take this down a notch.

It's Friday night. My wife wants me to watch a movie and I'm on my 3rd beer which is my limit. This is just my opinion and thought to this whole thing. Might be a little silly and light.

Dude! Time to put down the beer...this is Saturday night! :type

Dang if you ain't right!

 

[westtexas]

What did Jesus say to the Jews? "Why dont you believe Me?" Since Jesus asked that, don't you think it stands to reason that Jesus did explain about Himself plainly? It was not mysterious.

Jesus explained about himself quite plainly! He made himself equal with God and thus the Jews wanted to kill him. John 5:18 You are right, no mystery at all!

 

[Sinthesis]

Actually it is saying Jesus was God in the Flesh.

I think you need an English lesson here. Unfortunate, coming from someone who second language is English.

The verse concerns "God", not "the will of God".

That is your opinion, not contextual.

[quote:1dsefg35]The prophets also did the will of God, but, in using your words, not everything they did was the same as the Father did.

The prophets were not sinless. There is a huge difference. And they were not sent to be the Lamb of God.[/quote:1dsefg35]
Look at it this way...

1Ti 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

God was:
manifest in the flesh,(Jesus? Check!)
justified in the Spirit,(Jesus? Check!)
seen of angels,(Jesus? Check!)
preached unto the Gentiles,(Jesus? Check!)
believed on in the world,(Jesus? Check!)
received up into glory.(Jesus? Check!)

So...

1Ti 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was Jesus.

 

[Danus]

What did Jesus say to the Jews? "Why dont you believe Me?" Since Jesus asked that, don't you think it stands to reason that Jesus did explain about Himself plainly? It was not mysterious.

Jesus explained about himself quite plainly! He made himself equal with God and thus the Jews wanted to kill him. John 5:18 You are right, no mystery at all!

Man SAHD! you stepped right into that,.

 

[Sinthesis]

• Tts 2:9 - [Exhort] servants to be obedient unto their own masters, [and] to please [them] well in all [things]; not answering again;
  Tts 2:10 - Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
  Tts 2:11 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
  Tts 2:12 - Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
  Tts 2:13 - Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
  Tts 2:14 - Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
  Tts 2:15 - These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi Danus:

Jesus is the one who made these claims that his Father was greater than him. Trinitarians are suggesting that their natures are the same. How can their natures be the same, when Jesus clearly states that the Father is greater than him ? God does not change. Jesus clearly is telling us that he is not God. He made it clear, that he is the Son of/from God.

On the contrary, non trinitarians do not struggle with the words of Jesus. We accept his words for what they say. If Jesus says that his Father is greater than him, we accept this as truth. But when a trinitarian says that Jesus is God, then we have a controversy. Jesus can not be of the same essence and nature, yet be less than the Father. It is impossible.

Let me answer your last question with scripture (was Jesus God in the flesh)

I John 4:12 - 15
I John 5:1 - 5
I John 5:9 - 13
I John 4:2 and 3

Thank you Mysteryman. I'll dig into these verses. I will use these verses to establish your chain of logic. Then I'll see if they pass the pull test against other verses we might find, or the whole of scripture.
along the way I'm going to have questions. here is the first.

John 10:29-30
29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

Here we see Jesus seeming to back some of what you state. In 29 he clearly seems to differentiate himself from God, but then he says; "No one can snatch them out of my Father's hand." this is odd. Why would the sheep be in the possession of his Father (God) when he just said his father gave them to him? As we read further he explains; "I and the Father are one".

How would you reconcile that to fit the non-trinitarin view?

No trick questions here by the way. Not trying to trap anyone, just want to know.

Lastly, I'm a little disappointed that you did not answer my direct question with a direct answer. Was Jesus God in the flesh? I already believe he was. I don't want to go on an Easter-egg hunt, I want to know what you think and why, from you.

Hi Danus:

I am going to wait for your reply on the verses I gave you. This way we do not get ahead of ourselves.

 

[Mysteryman]

• Tts 2:9 - [Exhort] servants to be obedient unto their own masters, [and] to please [them] well in all [things]; not answering again;
  Tts 2:10 - Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
  Tts 2:11 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
  Tts 2:12 - Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
  Tts 2:13 - Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
  Tts 2:14 - Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
  Tts 2:15 - These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Hi

Do you believe that man can and will see God here upon this earth ? Do you believe that Titus would contradict scripture, that no man has seen God at any time ?

 

[Mysteryman]

This is exactly why I have chosen to rarely speak to you anymore. I had thought maybe some time would change things, but it hasn't. It is still "my views are spiritual and yours are carnal".

You need to get over this "my views are spiritual" and just speak to me man to man, man to boy, man to girl, whatever, if you are able...

If you are able, you'll argument will speak for itself. No need to fall back on the childish "my views are spiritual". That is not how one proves another argument is faulty.

Hi Joe:

I am sorry you feel that way, but this is also the way in which Paul talked to the Corinthians in I Corinth. 3:1 - 3.

He cared, but he was also honest with them. He also could not talked to them spiritually, because they were thinking carnally. So Paul only gave them the milk of the Word, because they could not digest the meat.

And this has nothing to do with you...

Your explanation of calling God a person fits your thinking as being carnal. The word "person" in scripture is only associated with mankind. God is all knowing, and has many attributes. But none of this makes him a person.

No, you are being carnal...

How's that for logic...

Anyone can say "I'm spiritual" and "your carnal". It proves nothing at all. This is a forum where ideas are exchanged, not where people puff themselves up and talk about how spiritual they are and how carnal anyone who disagrees with them are.

God is Spirit ! He is the Holy Spirit. He is a Spirit being.

Yes, God is spirit. He is Holy. He is a spirit-being.

Which does not address whether he is a person or not... The definition I posted does not distinguish between whether a being is material or spiritual. It addresses the ability of an entity to think. Now, are you telling me God cannot think???

Dictionaries. They can be our friends. Don't be afraid of them...

Hi Joe :

The reason we do not communicate well with one another, is because of your constant lack of respect for the comments being made. I told you that the word "person" in the Word of God, is only associated with mankind. You then want me to read my dictionary. This is plainly a way for you to avoid scripture and go back to your carnal way of thinking.

Of course there is nothing wrong with a dictionary. But a dictionary does not dictate what scripture is saying. The usage of a word from scripture is how we study the scriptures. Not how a dictionary gives a definition of a word. Understanding words and their meaning is important, but we must first look at the scriptures to see how and when and why they are used within scripture. How they are used in association. Never, ever is the word "person" used in association with God Almighty, never !

LOL, Joe, thinking does not make one a person. My dog can think ! :biglaugh

The very reason, that we as humans/mankind can reason things out, is because of the spirit of man that God gives us. There is a difference between thinking and reasoning out. Our reasoning out can also be expressed through words of expression, that brings about our minds into undertanding.

Yes, God is Spirit , but that does not make him a person. It means that God is a Spirit being. We are dealing with a biblical word, and its usage within scripture. A person is only related to mankind within scripture.

Many trinitarians consider God to be three persons. These types of comments are just carnal , plain and simple.

And if God is three entities, as some conclude, then God is not one, but three.

The Word tells us that God changes not. If God literally came into this world, then by shear logic, God would have to change from a Spirit being into a flesh being, and a man that could lie. This is why God sent a remnant, a portion of his make up, which is Spirit. His seed Son. His only begotten Son.

We also are told from scripture, that the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain God. So I am sure that within the body of Jesus, is only a remnant of the Spirit of God. That portion is the seed of God. His seed Son. His only begotten Son. We are also told from scripture, that God is a consuming God, and if any man has seen God, they would be consumed by his brightness. This means that God could not send himself here on this earth for many reasons.

God was manifested in the flesh through His Son, Jesus Christ.

God was in Christ, because the scripture in the gospels tell us that the Father was in the son and the son was in the Father. And it tells us that he is in us as well, both the son and the Father. And we as christians do not claim to be God either, or at least we shouldn't ! We are sons of God, and Jesus the Christ was the only begotten Son of God. God gives. God gave portions. As christians, we have the Spirit of his Son in our hearts, crying Abba, Father. Jesus Christ prayed to his Father . That is because he is the Son of God.

Jesus declared, that his Father was our Father, and his God is also our God. Yet many want to turn the Son of God into God or a god. This is idolatrous thinking.

Jesus the Christ is divine, in that, he has the Spirit of/from God in him. A portion. But so do Christians as well, we also are divine, in that we also have a portion of God in us, and that portion is called - "Christ in us, the hope of glory".

 

[Danus]

Hi Danus:

I am going to wait for your reply on the verses I gave you. This way we do not get ahead of ourselves.

Mysteryman, thanks for the verses. I have looked through them and I'm reading some other material in relation to this subject.

In so doing I am studying up on the views expressed here in this thread as well as those that I hold. I'm not sure it's a discussion I'm prepared to involve myself in for several reasons. 1 lack of experience and 2 lack of value.

I have my beliefs and I'm always willing to test them in this way, but I need to test them on my own right now. However, when engaging these topics publicly, I need to know the opposing views as well as I can. In this case I'm finding several. Some I can easily discard and some I can't as easily, and still others that seem to be "splitting hairs" on the matter.

So I have quite a bit to chew on. I may pop in for a question or two. Thanks again for engaging me on this. I will keep your words on the shelf for further examination.

 

[shad]

Jesus explained about himself quite plainly! He made himself equal with God and thus the Jews wanted to kill him. John 5:18 You are right, no mystery at all!

Jesus explained simply and plainly about Himself but you guys made up mysterious doctrine to divide the believers and trying to show how superior they are.

 

[shad]

I have my beliefs and I'm always willing to test them in this way,

How do you test them? By examine their fruit. Fruit is their practices. There are tons of hypocritical and ungodly practices using His name. We cannot mock God.

 

[shad]

Jesus explained about himself quite plainly! He made himself equal with God and thus the Jews wanted to kill him.

Jesus did say plainly that His Father is greater than He. You are lying about this. Jews wanted kill Him for many reasons.

 

[shad]

[

1Ti 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was Jesus.

Here is actual quote:

Timothy 3:16 (New International Version)
16Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:
He[a] appeared in a body,
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.


You added Jesus was God. shame on you.

 

[Danus]

I have my beliefs and I'm always willing to test them in this way,

How do you test them? By examine their fruit. Fruit is their practices. There are tons of hypocritical and ungodly practices using His name. We cannot mock God.

What purpose do you have in linking that statement with mine Shad? Honestly I sometimes think you post stuff for the same reasons a kid knocks over a hornets nest and giggles while doing it. Always keeping a safe distance so you won't get stung

 

[shad]

I have my beliefs and I'm always willing to test them in this way,

How do you test them? By examine their fruit. Fruit is their practices. There are tons of hypocritical and ungodly practices using His name. We cannot mock God.

What purpose do you have in linking that statement with mine Shad? Honestly I sometimes think you post stuff for the same reasons a kid knocks over a hornets nest and giggles while doing it. Always keeping a safe distance so you won't get stung

I picked it from your post. You don't remember what you said?

Ok I will show you the whole post of yours.

 

[shad]

Here you go Danus, I bolded and underlined what I picked.

Hi Danus:

I am going to wait for your reply on the verses I gave you. This way we do not get ahead of ourselves.

Mysteryman, thanks for the verses. I have looked through them and I'm reading some other material in relation to this subject.

In so doing I am studying up on the views expressed here in this thread as well as those that I hold. I'm not sure it's a discussion I'm prepared to involve myself in for several reasons. 1 lack of experience and 2 lack of value.

I have my beliefs and I'm always willing to test them in this way, but I need to test them on my own right now. However, when engaging these topics publicly, I need to know the opposing views as well as I can. In this case I'm finding several. Some I can easily discard and some I can't as easily, and still others that seem to be "splitting hairs" on the matter.

So I have quite a bit to chew on. I may pop in for a question or two. Thanks again for engaging me on this. I will keep your words on the shelf for further examination.

 

[westtexas]

Jesus explained about himself quite plainly! He made himself equal with God and thus the Jews wanted to kill him.

Jesus did say plainly that His Father is greater than He. You are lying about this. Jews wanted kill Him for many reasons.

You are really pathetic Shad. You can't seem to express your beliefs so it is necessary for you to call people names. The above is not a lie unless you believe that scripture is a lie. The above as stated a few posts up, comes from John 5:18, but I'm sure you never looked it up because it probably was not a clear enough verse for you. I believe the Greek word-- diablos #1228--fits you perfectly. In case you don't want to look it up or it is too unclear it means "slanderer-to accuse someone falsely"

 

[shad]

Jesus explained about himself quite plainly! He made himself equal with God and thus the Jews wanted to kill him.

Jesus did say plainly that His Father is greater than He. You are lying about this. Jews wanted kill Him for many reasons.

You are really pathetic Shad.

Ditto to you.

take care.

 

[westtexas]

Ditto to you.

take care.

This is an unclear verse. What do you mean?