if one doest accept the trinity then what was jesus?

[francisdesales]

Do you find the Scripture actually saying this? Where?

thanks.

• 1Ti 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

OK, I'm going to wait for the "other shoe" to drop that accuses Trinitarians of manipulating that verse, as well. Or maybe how those crazy Catholics re-wrote the bible... Should be interesting. :help

 

[Danus]

Was Jesus God in the flesh? I already believe he was.

Do you find the Scripture actually saying this? Where?

thanks.

Well then you answer the question directly please. Stop smoke and mirroring here. I can do the same thing I guess. I'll give you the text and you figure out what books they are then you can reconcile all this for me to fit your understanding since your the one who started this thread.

Paul: "Christ is the visible image of the invisible God."1
John: "He existed in the beginning with God."2
Peter: "you must worship Christ as Lord of your life."3

"Your father Abraham rejoiced as he looked forward to my coming. He saw it and was glad." The people said, "You aren't even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?" Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!" At that point they picked up stones to throw at him. But Jesus was hidden from them and left the Temple.4

"The Father and I are one." Once again the people picked up stones to kill him. Jesus said, "At my Father's direction I have done many good works. For which one are you going to stone me?" They replied, "We're stoning you not for any good work, but for blasphemy! You, a mere man, claim to be God."5

Jesus shouted to the crowds, "If you trust me, you are trusting not only me, but also God who sent me. For when you see me, you are seeing the one who sent me. I have come as a light to shine in this dark world, so that all who put their trust in me will no longer remain in the dark."6

After washing their feet, he put on his robe again and sat down and asked, "Do you understand what I was doing? You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and you are right, because that's what I am. And since I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you ought to wash each other's feet."7

Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is. From now on, you do know him and have seen him!" Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied." Jesus replied, "Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don't know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you?"8

 

[shad]

Shad,

That is quite unnecessary and unfair.

There are a variety of Christian doctrines that non-Catholics and Catholics agree on. I believe I can help people by what I have learned. Many have told me so. In addition, many people here are interested in what Catholics believe, even if they don't want to become Catholic. I try to respect everyone's desire and share my faith with others, understanding that this is a forum where we can exchange beliefs and ideas. I have learned quite a bit from some of my separated brothers here. I believe, even when I disagree with the likes of someone like Mondar, such discussion strengthens my own faith.

I understand fully that many mainstream churches take and pick what other organization is teaching. My comment was poorly worded. What I should have said is non-trinitarians. Yes, I agree that catholic and protestants have many in common but MM and I are non-trinitarian. Non-trins and trins cannot communicate especially with catholics because you use many, many outside sources.

Those who rely on "Bible alone", I try to point out the problems with that, but at the end of the day, they must choose whether sola scriptura really is a "pillar" or not... Just saying 'I am spiritual and you are carnal' doesn't really cut it.

You are right, we cannot judge anyone who is spiritual and who is not, it is God who judges who is in line with God.

And we rely on the Bible for all spiritual knowledge. This is our core principle so there is no compromise about it..

 

[francisdesales]

I understand fully that many mainstream churches take and pick what other organization is teaching. My comment was poorly worded. What I should have said is non-trinitarians. Yes, I agree that catholic and protestants have many in common but MM and I are non-trinitarian. Non-trins and trins cannot communicate especially with catholics because you use many, many outside sources.

Shad,

Stop the cliches, please. I have not presented anything as authoritative to prove the validity of the dogma of the Blessed Trinity other than the Bible and what we find there. Naturally, I could bring up much more that supports my position, but I realize that there is no point to that, it would be dismissed without consideration.

However, I am finding out that even Scriptures are being dismissed without consideration.

Why is that, Shad?

 

[watchman F]

The Trinity teaches that the Father, Son and H.S are all separate persons, and that Jesus is God the Son only, not the Father or H.S.

That's not quite my understanding. Just to double check I looked it up on Wikipedia for a little brush up.

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity teaches the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead.[1] The doctrine states that God is the Triune God, existing as three persons, or in the Greek hypostases,[2] but one being.[3] (Personhood in the Trinity does not match the common Western understanding of "person" as used in the English language—it does not imply an "individual, self-actualized center of free will and conscious activity."[4]:pp. 185-6. To the ancients, personhood "was in some sense individual, but always in community as well."[4]:p.186 Each person is understood as having the one identical essence or nature, not merely similar natures.) Since the beginning of the third century[5] the doctrine of the Trinity has been stated as "the one God exists in three Persons and one substance, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

This matches pretty well with my understanding of the trinity. However I tend not to use the word "person" for the very reasons pointed out above. I prefer to use the word "entity".

Danus do you believe Jesus is the Father???

 

[watchman F]

Was Jesus God in the flesh? I already believe he was.

Do you find the Scripture actually saying this? Where?

thanks.

Here are a few
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 14
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

Philippians 2
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

1st Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

1st John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

The Father Himself calls Jesus God in Hebrews
Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

 

[Danus]

I think there is ample evidence to suggest a conclusion that Christ was in fact God in the flesh, and ample reasoning to suggest why the bible just does not write it out with a big crayon. Maybe we could explore that. However, if we go there it's going to require thought beyond just scripture.....anyone?

 

[watchman F]

I think there is ample evidence to suggest a conclusion that Christ was in fact God in the flesh, and ample reasoning to suggest why the bible just does not write it out with a big crayon. Maybe we could explore that. However, if we go there it's going to require thought beyond just scripture.....anyone?

What is this in response to?

 

[Danus]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity[/url]

This matches pretty well with my understanding of the trinity. However I tend not to use the word "person" for the very reasons pointed out above. I prefer to use the word "entity".

Danus do you believe Jesus is the Father???[/quote:1cvfrv6a]

If by father you mean God in the flesh with us walking around physically...yes.

 

[Danus]

I think there is ample evidence to suggest a conclusion that Christ was in fact God in the flesh, and ample reasoning to suggest why the bible just does not write it out with a big crayon. Maybe we could explore that. However, if we go there it's going to require thought beyond just scripture.....anyone?

What is this in response to?

Just in general. I'm a little frustrated that these conversations tend to be like snowball fights.

 

[watchman F]

Danus do you believe Jesus is the Father???

If by father you mean God in the flesh with us walking around physically...yes.

I mean do you think that Jesus is God the Father in the flesh as the Son rather than God the son in the flesh?

 

[watchman F]

I think there is ample evidence to suggest a conclusion that Christ was in fact God in the flesh, and ample reasoning to suggest why the bible just does not write it out with a big crayon. Maybe we could explore that. However, if we go there it's going to require thought beyond just scripture.....anyone?

What is this in response to?

Just in general. I'm a little frustrated that these conversations tend to be like snowball fights.

Yes, I agree it can be frustrating. However no snow balls here. Just trying to see where you are staring from so I can share what I believe scripture says.

 

[Sinthesis]

Do you find the Scripture actually saying this? Where?

thanks.

• 1Ti 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Thanks but it is not saying Jesus was God in the flesh. Manifesting means revealing. Jesus did the will of God, so everything He did was the same as the Father did.

Actually it is saying Jesus was God in the Flesh.

The verse concerns "God", not "the will of God".

The prophets also did the will of God, but, in using your words, not everything they did was the same as the Father did.

 

[Danus]

[quote="watchman F":3q38j3e6]Danus do you believe Jesus is the Father???

If by father you mean God in the flesh with us walking around physically...yes.

I mean do you think that Jesus is God the Father in the flesh as the Son rather than God the son in the flesh?[/quote:3q38j3e6]

eeehhhh? I believe in God the father, God the son and God the holly spirit as three distinct entities as one God.

To be clear, during the time of Christ life, God was in heaven and God was on earth physically as Jesus Christ. Those who looked into the eyes of Christ, looked into the eyes of God in human form.

 

[watchman F]

• 1Ti 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Thanks but it is not saying Jesus was God in the flesh. Manifesting means revealing. Jesus did the will of God, so everything He did was the same as the Father did.

Actually it is saying Jesus was God in the Flesh.

The verse concerns "God", not "the will of God".

The prophets also did the will of God, but, in using your words, not everything they did was the same as the Father did.

You are absolutely right sinthesis, `1st Timothy 3:16 is a clear declaration of Christ's deity.

 

[watchman F]

If by father you mean God in the flesh with us walking around physically...yes.

I mean do you think that Jesus is God the Father in the flesh as the Son rather than God the son in the flesh?

eeehhhh? I believe in God the father, God the son and God the holly spirit as three distinct entities as one God.

To be clear, during the time of Christ life, God was in heaven and God was on earth physically as Jesus Christ. Those who looked into the eyes of Christ, looked into the eyes of God in human form.

O. K. I got ya so you are tradition trinitarian. I am not. I believe God the Father, the son, and Holy Spirit are one entity not three. Although I do believe the Father was in Heaven when Jesus was on Earth because...you know god is God and He can be two places at once.

 

[dadof10]

It is very obvious you guys are confused about the trinity. That's why you say trinity is mystery. And that's why there are so many different views on of trinity. Some say Jesus is not equal with the Father and some say they are. Some say YHWH is Jesus. I believe this forum believes Jesus is YHWH. It is a circus.

This is a ridiculous argument. Every doctrine you hold, from the nature of God to the meaning of communion is disputed within Protestantism to some degree or another. Does that mean all your doctrines are false? Foolishness...

There are "many different opinions" within the non-trinitarian camps on Who Jesus is, also. What's your point if it's not division?

[quote:2i6h7o4g]Catholics created the doctrine which ostracize other believers who dont agree with your mystic doctrine. It is clear that it is a stumbling block. It creats division.

[/quote:2i6h7o4g]

:biglaugh The doctrine of the Trinity was defined VERY early on, and has been held for centuries BEFORE the Reformation. If you want to complain about doctrines that cause divisions, you're on the wrong thread. You should be on the "Sola-Scriptura", "sola-fide" or "invisible church" threads.

Do you consider these doctrines "stumbling blocks"? Does the fact that they divide Christendom somehow speak to their veracity? Are the people who hold them dishonest? Why am I even dignifying these absurd comments with a response...Just bored, I guess...

 

[Danus]

Ok, I'm going to take this down a notch.

It's Friday night. My wife wants me to watch a movie and I'm on my 3rd beer which is my limit. This is just my opinion and thought to this whole thing. Might be a little silly and light.


I'm glade the bible does not write in BIG CRAYON that Jesus was God. In other words I like that it leaves this riddle even though the bible leans almost 90 degrees to the or more to the idea that Christ was in fact God in the flesh. Why do I say this? #1 Faith. #2 I don't think Jesus would have been with us in the flesh as long as he was otherwise.

The mystery of Christ in his day requires faith. It requires one to draw conclusions and wrestle with God a bit. That's a good thing. I think God needs us to go through that for our own sake, so that we might truly believe and not just be told.

Also, I can't imagine Jesus saying; "How do you do everyone? I'm Jesus Christ the messiah you've been waiting for. Yes I am God. Glad to meet yha. Now if you'll all just follow me please. single file please, no pushing no shoving. there is plenty of room at my table"....he'd have been crucified in two seconds and we'd have missed out on some of the greatest writings of all times not to mention the chance to believe.

 

[shad]

Actually it is saying Jesus was God in the Flesh.

I think you need an English lesson here. Unfortunate, coming from someone who second language is English.

The verse concerns "God", not "the will of God".

That is your opinion, not contextual.

The prophets also did the will of God, but, in using your words, not everything they did was the same as the Father did.

The prophets were not sinless. There is a huge difference. And they were not sent to be the Lamb of God.

 

[shad]

I'm glade the bible does not write in BIG CRAYON that Jesus was God. In other words I like that it leaves this riddle even though the bible leans almost 90 degrees to the or more to the idea that Christ was in fact God in the flesh. Why do I say this? #1 Faith. #2 I don't think Jesus would have been with us in the flesh as long as he was otherwise.

What an excuse for your own man-made doctrine. It is sad.

What did Jesus say to the Jews? "Why dont you believe Me?" Since Jesus asked that, don't you think it stands to reason that Jesus did explain about Himself plainly? It was not mysterious.