if one doest accept the trinity then what was jesus?

[jasoncran]

but they are supposed to do that. if i recall the actually ot law. not what was added by the pharisee.

 

[Sinthesis]

That word "equal" could be translated in other words, such as, "equated," or "counted," or "equality."

Only when it is used as a noun. Strongs #'s 2471 & 4915
When it is used as an adjective it means---(isos-2470, the same in size, number, quality" etc., is translated "equal" in John 5:18---Vines Concise Dictionary pg. 117)

John 5:18--Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he had not only broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. (KJV)

the jews sought to kill Jesus because He said He was EQUAL (the same in quality) as God

Westtexas

Your statement is illogical because ancient Hebrew and Greek did not have modern English rules. Yahshua never broke the Sabbath, nor did the disciples. Having something to eat is not harvesting the field. See:

Matthew 12
Lord of the Sabbath
1At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath."
3He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? 6I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. 7If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

Jesus did not pick the grains Himself, therefore He was innocent, yet the pharisees condemned Him. His disciples did break the Sabbath, hence Jesus defends them by showing how also David was justified to break the Sabbath in service to our Lord. If the disciples offered to Jesus some of the grain they had picked, then they were serving Him, and because Jesus is God the Son, they were blameless in their actions, just as Priests are allowed to work on the Sabbath in serving God the Father.

Jesus knows that striving to keep the Law to the letter can lead us sinners to break His two commandments, resulting in hypocrisy.

 

[watchman F]

I have noticed that alot of people who refuse to accept the deity of Christ keep using the statement illogical, as if God has to fit into our logic? God is beyond our logic, and can do all things. If the bible says (which it does) that Jesus was both God and man then He was indeed both God and man. I am wondering where the logic of questioning God's word comes in?

 

[jasoncran]

I have noticed that alot of people who refuse to accept the deity of Christ keep using the statement illogical, as if God has to fit into our logic? God is beyond our logic, and can do all things. If the bible says (which it does) that Jesus was both God and man then He was indeed both God and man. I am wondering where the logic of questioning God's word comes in?

i gave up trying to fully grasp the nature of God, cant be done. just like the creation account, how he did it , i dont know but i believe that he did do it.

 

[westtexas]

Your statement is illogical because ancient Hebrew and Greek did not have modern English rules. Yahshua never broke the Sabbath, nor did the disciples. Having something to eat is not harvesting the field.

Which part of my statement was illogical? The quote from scripture or the quote from Vines Dictionary?

westtexas

 

[westtexas]

one wasnt supposed to gather on the sabbath, but the lord know that with some rules there are exceptions.

I do not know what you are talking about. The people of God have always gathered on the Sabbath.

You know better than this. You're just trying to argue with Jason. As Jason said, under the Mosaic Law the Israelites never gathered on the Sabbath. Which is the reason for 40 years they gathered enough manna to eat every day. The day before the Sabbath they gathered enough for 2 days so they did not work on the Sabbath.

Westtexas

 

[Mysteryman]

.

"God exhalted him" ------ he did not exhalt himself !

Equal, in what sense ? Equality or Equal is in reference to that which is given. Jesus even said that we would do the same works that he had done and greater works because he goes unto the Father.

This would put us on equal footing with Jesus Christ, and we are not God either !

God --- is a God that changes not.

Jesus Christ, is ----- the same today, tomorrow and forever < = does not change

Jesus Christ is, the Son of God, today, tomorrow and forever < = does not change

Jesus Christ is a reflection of his Father -- "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father"

That's according to your own subjective interpretation.


JOHN 20:28 -- And Thomas answered and said unto Him, My Lord and my God.

I'm sure verses like this will be ignored by you ....

Hi Tina:

Why would you think that I would ignore any verse of scripture ?

Ask yourself this ---- Was Thomas talking too Jesus or about God, whom raised Jesus from the dead ?

If you believe that there is only one God, how then do you reconcile John 20:17 , which clearly shows us that Jesus said that he had a God and that his God was our God and his Father was our Father ? ?

 

[jasoncran]

then what of (mm) of the worship and glorification of the christ.

how can the lord say that he is the first and the last in the book and revalation?
and isiah says the same when the lord tells him so, to whom was isaih listening too?

if the lord jesus isnt God, show me which person is the liar, and upon that, that whole Book needs to be thrown out of the canon!

 

[shad]

Given a choice, why would anyone choose to place their hope for salvation in the hands of a mere man?

Jesus is not a mere man, He is now Spirit being and sitting right hand of Almighty God. He accomplished His mission given by His Father.

Do you call that a mere man? I don't. He is more than worthy enough to be my Lord.

So you believe Jesus is just a glorified man?

I dont know what you are asking but what is wrong with my comment above?

 

[shad]

i gave up trying to fully grasp the nature of God, cant be done. just like the creation account, how he did it , i dont know but i believe that he did do it.

If you try to understand the trinity, you can't grasp the nature of God. That's why trinitarians should not use this doctrine to ostracize non-trinitarians.They don't understand it, the Bible doesn't say it, yet they require others to believe it anyway.

 

[jasoncran]

i gave up trying to fully grasp the nature of God, cant be done. just like the creation account, how he did it , i dont know but i believe that he did do it.

If you try to understand the trinity, you can't grasp the nature of God. That's why trinitarians should not use this doctrine to ostracize non-trinitarians.They don't understand it, the Bible doesn't say it, yet they require others to believe it anyway.

because, its in there. by your thinking then we should just accept evolution and not the idea that genesis is written as history(with some gaps) not an allegory.

answer me this, what did the lord Jesus mean in the vision of john when he said he is the alpha and omega? isiah wrote that as well.

hmm who spoke to isiah then? a preincarnate christ. how if he cant be worshipped as he is either an angel or man, but not God.

 

[shad]

Jason,

Here is what Paul says:

1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (New International Version)
5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

According to Paul, Jesus is Lord not God, the Father is God.

 

[jasoncran]

but he is still God, is he not , not the father, yes, but let me pull out the verses for you.

revalation 1:11

saying I AM THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA, THE FIRST AND THE LAST...
hmm the lord Jesus described by John says that.

lets see what isaiah has to say

isaiah 44:6"
THUS SAITH THE LORD KING OF ISREAL, AND HIS REDEEMER THE LORD OF HOSTS; I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST; AND BESIDE ME THERE IS NO GOD."

hmm John's vision is backed up, look who is claiming that! Jesus, how can that be if he aint part of the trinity?


so tell me, wheres the lying prophet? if John, then we need to back to the oldest manuels and check for errs, if not. what then

if isaiah the same. and wait the oldest found to date on him is the dead sea scrolls, and its hasnt changed! so hes good!

John is the one that needs to go. then if we cant be sure, hmm

 

[shad]

but he is still God, is he not , not the father, yes, but let me pull out the verses for you.

revalation 1:11

saying I AM THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA, THE FIRST AND THE LAST...
hmm the lord Jesus described by John says that.

lets see what isaiah has to say

isaiah 44:6"
THUS SAITH THE LORD KING OF ISREAL, AND HIS REDEEMER THE LORD OF HOSTS; I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST; AND BESIDE ME THERE IS NO GOD."

hmm John's vision is backed up, look who is claiming that! Jesus, how can that be if he aint part of the trinity?


so tell me, wheres the lying prophet? if John, then we need to back to the oldest manuels and check for errs, if not. what then

if isaiah the same. and wait the oldest found to date on him is the dead sea scrolls, and its hasnt changed! so hes good!

John is the one that needs to go. then if we cant be sure, hmm

They are not clear verses like what Paul says. Paul's statement is very clear. Jesus also says to His disciples "My God and your God."

 

[jasoncran]

how clear do they have to be?!!!!
jesus said that he was the first and the last in the vision of john. he wrote what he saw, the vision and what was said.

isaiah wrote what he heard.so if those two didnt hear clearly what then.

this aint hard shad, i accept the idea of the trinity, i dont have to understand it, does one need to know how electricity works to turn on a light? no

 

[JudaicChristian]

There are many examples of scriptural corruptions in scriptures in regards to Trinitarianism. Just because every last place can not be disproved does not mean that this is not so.

Isaiah 44:6
"This is what [the LORD / Yahwah] says— Israel's King and Redeemer, [the LORD / God] Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no [God / Elohiym.]

Isaiah 48:11-12
11 For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this. How can I let myself be defamed? I will not yield my glory to another."Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last.

Because KJV Rev 1:11 was found to be a corruption it is not included into other bibles.
Revelation 1:11
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:

 

[jasoncran]

odd, i use the kjv. if we are to take your view then explain the accuracy or lack thereof of the bible?
if inaccurate then the athiest is right.we have nothing to stand on. for which part is made up?

i believe the bible is the way it is because of what the power of God.

if men are able to so corrupt the bible at every turn, then how can the God we claim to serve be able to save us?

 

[JudaicChristian]

1 Cor 15:28
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him That put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

 

[jasoncran]

what that answer? the trinity, who gave him that power?

 

[JudaicChristian]

odd, i use the kjv. if we are to take your view then explain the accuracy or lack thereof of the bible?
if inaccurate then the athiest is right.we have nothing to stand on. for which part is made up?

i believe the bible is the way it is because of what the power of God.

if men are able to so corrupt the bible at every turn, then how can the God we claim to serve be able to save us?

It was prophesied by Yahwah through David that the beast would throw the truth to the ground. The Atheist are wrong, it was fore told that it would happen.