if one doest accept the trinity then what was jesus?

[watchman F]

And I am done with this discussion with you since you cannot make your case logical.

take care.

Trying to fit God into your logical, finite, human box it the definition of illogical.

You are ignoring so many clear verses.

No you are the one ignoring the clarity of scripture the scriptures you post do not contradict the rest of the bible. The bible clearly state Jesus is God, for you to post a scripture that says the Father is God does not disprove the scripture that says Jesus is God as one passage cannot disprove the other. The fact is both must be true. and if so the Jesus is the Father incarnate just as I say.

 

[watchman F]

What you are doing is cherry picking. .

Once again it is you who are cherry picking you post one scripture and ignore the rest. I indeed believe both. That The Father is the only true God and that Jesus is God because the bible says both are true.

Once again these two truths combine makes Jesus the Father incarnate as the Son

 

[watchman F]

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

explain this way shad??????

 

[Ashua]

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Messiah, the Son of the living God.


I am content to leave it at that.

 

[watchman F]

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Messiah, the Son of the living God.


I am content to leave it at that.

You are content to leave it at what Peter calls Him yet you refuse to accept what He calls Himself?
John 14
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

Or what about what Thomas calls Him?
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

 

[Mysteryman]

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Messiah, the Son of the living God.


I am content to leave it at that.

You are content to leave it at what Peter calls Him yet you refuse to accept what He calls Himself?
John 14
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

Or what about what Thomas calls Him?
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

Hi Watchman :

John 20:17 comes before John 20:28 = context

John 20:17 - "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not ; For I am not yet ascended to my Father : but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God"

Jesus can not be the Father, nor God, if he is going to ascend unto the Father, who is our Father, and to his God, who is also our God ! !

The Apostle Paul said this - Ephesians 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"

Jesus Christ has a Father and a God. And his Father and his God, is our Father and our God !

 

[watchman F]

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Messiah, the Son of the living God.


I am content to leave it at that.

You are content to leave it at what Peter calls Him yet you refuse to accept what He calls Himself?
John 14
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

Or what about what Thomas calls Him?
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

Hi Watchman :

John 20:17 comes before John 20:28 = context

John 20:17 - "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not ; For I am not yet ascended to my Father : but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God"

Jesus can not be the Father, nor God, if he is going to ascend unto the Father, who is our Father, and to his God, who is also our God ! !

The Apostle Paul said this - Ephesians 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"

Jesus Christ has a Father and a God. And his Father and his God, is our Father and our God !

Like I said many times one passage of scripture does not disprove nor negate another. We must accept all scripture as equally true. If we do this then we will come to the conclusion that Jesus is God the Father incarnate as the Son.

 

[dadof10]

Jesus was the Lamb of God and Savior of the world, and He is many other things. Jesus does not say we have to accept Him as one of the trinity. Trinity is not used in the Bible. You are adding your own qualification for salvation. If it was so essential for salvation, why isn't even the word trinity in there?

But the Bible is very clear that Jesus has to be accepted as the Lamb of God and Savior of the world and that without Him no one will be saved, not that He should be accepted as one of the trinity.

The Bible itself doesn't say it has to be accepted as a rule of faith either, but you accept it. All it says is that Scripture is good for "training, reproof, and correction in the faith", not that it is sufficient. There are things not specifically mentioned in Scripture (like the Trinity) that Christians, from the beginning, have accepted.

I haven't read all the posts here, so this may have been covered already.

"Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe." (John (RSV) 20)

Thomas is clearly calling Jesus "God" and Jesus is clearly accepting the title. Certainly there are many verses where Jesus Himself calls YHWH his "God", "Father", etc., as there are more verses that show Jesus as God. So how are we to reconcile these two seemingly contradictory views? We can't ignore one in favor of the other, can we?

 

[shad]

The Bible itself doesn't say it has to be accepted as a rule of faith either, but you accept it.

Yes it does say it clearly. Here is what Jesus says:

"For God so love the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

this may have been covered already.

Yes, everything you are saying is covered already. All you have to do is read this thread.

 

[shad]

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Messiah, the Son of the living God.

I am content to leave it at that.

Well said, Ashua, Amen!!! We don't need any extra qualification for our salvation.

 

[shad]

Jesus Christ has a Father and a God. And his Father and his God, is our Father and our God !

Like I said many times one passage of scripture does not disprove nor negate another. We must accept all scripture as equally true.

You are not accepting above what Paul says.

If we do this then we will come to the conclusion that Jesus is God the Father incarnate as the Son.

This is your gimmicky doctrine.

 

[shad]

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

explain this way shad??????

We are talking about CLEAR VERSES, NOT VAGUE ONES. So far all you bring up is vague ones. You cannot find any clear verses to support your claim because your claim is not true.

The Bible is not a mystery, if it is not clear it is because your interpretation is out of context with clear verses. It is not because you have extra knowledge that others cannot understand. Dont put yourself higher than who you are.

 

[Mysteryman]

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Messiah, the Son of the living God.


I am content to leave it at that.

You are content to leave it at what Peter calls Him yet you refuse to accept what He calls Himself?
John 14
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

Or what about what Thomas calls Him?
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

Hi Watchman :

John 20:17 comes before John 20:28 = context

John 20:17 - "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not ; For I am not yet ascended to my Father : but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God"

Jesus can not be the Father, nor God, if he is going to ascend unto the Father, who is our Father, and to his God, who is also our God ! !

The Apostle Paul said this - Ephesians 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"

Jesus Christ has a Father and a God. And his Father and his God, is our Father and our God !

Like I said many times one passage of scripture does not disprove nor negate another. We must accept all scripture as equally true. If we do this then we will come to the conclusion that Jesus is God the Father incarnate as the Son.[/quote]
------------------------------------------

Hi Watchman

Now you are making no sense at all ! Totally illogical !

I show you context, and you deny the context, then come back and try and tell me we need to look at the whole Word of God as the context. Your comments are totally irrational.

 

[Mohrb]

Like I said many times one passage of scripture does not disprove nor negate another. We must accept all scripture as equally true. If we do this then we will come to the conclusion that Jesus is God the Father incarnate as the Son.

John 10:31-36: Once more the Jews lifted up stones to stone him. 32 Jesus replied to them: “I displayed to YOU many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are YOU stoning me?†33 The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy, even because you, although being a man, make yourself a god.†34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “YOU are godsâ€â€™? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, 36 do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?

This is where Jesus refers to Psalms 82:6... where humans are referred to as elohim, gods.

So, is there a context that someone can be referred to as "elohim" or even "el gibbur"... without being "El Shaddai?"

Honestly, considering the context of Jesus repeatedly giving all glory to his Father, calling his father the "Only true God" (John 17:3), constantly telling people that he does nothing by his own power, but only does the will of his Father and God.... one verse is cherry-picked out where a term that's used for humans is given to the Son also, and there's suddenly NO possibility other than Jesus being the same being as his Father?

Honestly... if Jesus being referred to as "theos" means he must be the same being as "ton theon" ... how do you see the verses where humans are referred to as "theoi?"

Can a trinitarian ever answer this question?

 

[shad]

I haven't read all the posts here, so this may have been covered already.

I would like to add that I am talking about clear verses saying about God and Jesus.

 

[JudaicChristian]

God or god. A God or a god. It was understood that the Messiah would be an immortal being from heaven. If Trinitarianism is a biblical truth, then how come it has never been taught in Orthodox Judaism? Why did it take Pagans who were recent converts to Christianity to reveal this to us. Orthodox Judaism has always known about Trinitarianism. The only Jews who believed in Trinitarianism were Pagans, Mystics, Hellenist, and Kabbalist.

 

[mondar]

God or god. A God or a god. It was understood that the Messiah would be an immortal being from heaven. If Trinitarianism is a biblical truth, then how come it has never been taught in Orthodox Judaism? Why did it take Pagans who were recent converts to Christianity to reveal this to us. Orthodox Judaism has always known about Trinitarianism. The only Jews who believed in Trinitarianism were Pagans, Mystics, Hellenist, and Kabbalist.

Larger fonts is like shouting, and has no place here.

Also, the strength of your argumentation does not match the size of your letters. Your diatribe about Pagans, etc, make me honestly question if you understand the difference between Trinitarian Monotheism and Tritheism.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Micah 5:2
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times. "

 

[mondar]

John 10:33........ The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy, even because you, although being a man, make yourself a god.â€

My guess is this is the New World mistranslation.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Psalm 82:6
"I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'
John 10:34
Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods' ? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?