if one doest accept the trinity then what was jesus?

[francisdesales]

How love your enemy commandment let your enemy kill you infant child? You sound like saying that Jesus is wrong to give us this commandment.

He didn't say let other people kill the ones we love. YOU INTERPRET "love your neighbor" that way.

I know you have been avoiding the military thread, I wonder why.

I was active in it initially, but I saw (and am learning here, as well) that you are not going to accept a reasonable response, but prefer to remain obstinate in the face of common sense and Biblical notions that don't match your opinions.

Thus, it was futile to continue.

I am only confronting trinitarians' inconsistency of their doctrines and practice. Jesus commands us to examine their spirit. He also tells us we know them by their fruit.

There is no inconsistencies in our doctrines, just some inconsistencies in trying to explain them.

Everyone in America knows and believes that we have a Constitutional government. Can everyone correctly and technically explain it? Hardly. Does this mean that our form of government is inconsistent because people are not well versed in explaining it accurately?

Yours is a desperate attempt to ward off the obvious - Jesus is God.

Unless you have something serious to ask, I must end my participation in this thread, it is going nowhere because you don't want to hear what is being said.

Regards

 

[shad]

He didn't say let other people kill the ones we love. YOU INTERPRET "love your neighbor" that way.

You use the tactics of your opponests you always oppose. It is so unbecoming. So you are saying your interpretation is right and your opponents are wrong. Isn't that what you said to MM too?

Here is my straight interpretation. Jesus says to "love your enemy", you dont love your enemy by killying them.

There is no inconsistencies in our doctrines, just some inconsistencies in trying to explain them.

In other words, you dont know you own doctrine. If you do you will not confuse anyone with your explanation.

Everyone in America knows and believes that we have a Constitutional government.

You are right, and Jesus' followers know that Christianity is not democracy. American government is democracy. Do you believe that your leaders are righteous and trusty worthy to be obeyed everything they order to their nation?

Yours is a desperate attempt to ward off the obvious - Jesus is God.

No, I am only point out your inconsistency of your faith and practice.

Unless you have something serious to ask, I must end my participation in this thread, it is going nowhere because you don't want to hear what is being said.
Regards

Suit yourself. I am only spreading my conviction to the world. It is not just about the members of this forum. Jesus' teachings and commandments deserved to be told the whole truth. And His servants have responsibility to do so.

 

[francisdesales]

It is not just about the members of this forum. Jesus' teachings and commandments deserved to be told the whole truth. And His servants have responsibility to do so.

Agreed, which is why I have struggled to do so here...

However, even Jesus eventually stopped when He ran into hard hearts who would not accept His witness.
I believe I have reached that point here on this subject. I have explained as simply as possible from Scriptures that Jesus must be God and we are to honor Him JUST AS the Father, with all of our mind, our hearts, our entire self. Anyone who loves Him less than wife or husband or child or even self is not fit to be His disciple, according to Him. THIS is the description of the love we give to God.

Heed what He says, Jesus is Lord God. Love Him with your entire self.

Now, I must leave.

Regards

 

[shad]

Heed what He says, Jesus is Lord God. Love Him with your entire self.

That's what I am striving to do.

When I read your posts against OSAS doctrine I really admire your devotion about it. We should be devoting to all His teachings and commandments, not just our churches' doctrines.

Jesus says to love your enemy and the most churches are disobeying His simple commandment by approving and killing their enemies.

Jesus tells us to be holy; we cannot be holy even if we are being obedient to Him 95%. We have to strive to be obedient to Him 100% with our action.

 

[Pard]

Jesus says to love your enemy and the most churches are disobeying His simple commandment by approving and killing their enemies.

Is there a super secret Christian assassins group? I know the Muslims got one, I didn't know we had one too...

 

[Neo]

The super secret Christian assisin group isn't very secret anymore, and they aren't around anymore either. They were called the templar knights and they were executed by the vatican on friday the 13th in what is now called the great inquisition.

 

[jasoncran]

here ya go , shad, this is why francisdales says what he says on the military

if a man smite the on the right cheek give him the left as well.

if we take your way, then the killer comes to kill or rape family or your person. stand there and make no effort to stop him or call the cops. if you bruise that person then you have just violated that commandment.

 

[francisdesales]

In other words, you dont know you own doctrine. If you do you will not confuse anyone with your explanation.

To a degree, that is true. Many Christians have a hard time explaining the Trinity. But that doesn't mean that there are inconsistencies in the ACTUAL doctrine, when correctly explained.

You are right, and Jesus' followers know that Christianity is not democracy. American government is democracy. Do you believe that your leaders are righteous and trusty worthy to be obeyed everything they order to their nation?

THANKS for proving my point, Shad, the US is a republic, not a democracy... Now, does your lack of BASIC KNOWLEDGE OF YOUR OWN GOVERNMENT and how it works means that the GOVERNMENT ITSELF is based upon inconsistencies?

Neither is the Trinity.

I rest my case...
Regards

 

[shad]

To a degree, that is true. Many Christians have a hard time explaining the Trinity. But that doesn't mean that there are inconsistencies in the ACTUAL doctrine, when correctly explained.

If your doctrine is biblical you should not have hard time explaining it. How many of your people understand the trinity? I hear so many leaders say trinity is a mystery. I believe it is a cop out. Nothing that the organization made up are logical. Take a look at Calvin's doctrines. The trinity is the same way.

Now, does your lack of BASIC KNOWLEDGE OF YOUR OWN GOVERNMENT and how it works means that the GOVERNMENT ITSELF is based upon inconsistencies?

Let me ask you this, do you believe US leaders are godly?

I dont even vote because it does not matter who gets elected. This world is corrupt because satan is in charge of this world. God gave governments for secular people. This world will stay corrupted and it will get even worse, according to the Bible.

The governments make laws according to what the majority wants, not what God wants them to do.

 

[Packrat]

In the Old Testament God's people are likened to the wife of God (even by God himself), especially in cases where they go whoring after idols. In the New Testament God's people (i.e. the Church) are likened to Christ's bride on numerous occasions. If the Messiah were not God then we would be whoring after the Messiah since our husband was God from the beginning. One can say, "But I have a human husband, so this proves I have two husbands at once since God is my husband, too! Your argument is irrelevant." No it isn't. The law against adultery was made for human beings. If the Messiah were merely a man then you would have two human husbands and a divine husband. You would be an adulterer by the Biblical definition. "But I'm not married to the Messiah yet!" In the Jewish culture of the time Jesus' disciples understood the drinking of the cup of wine at the Last Supper as the embracing of a marriage covenant with Jesus. At that point in time they were ritually married to him. It was customary then for the husband to leave his bride to prepare a place for her to live. When the father of the husband approved of his work the husband would come to get his bride and the wedding would be consummated. So in all actuality, whether or not the Messiah is merely a man you have already been married to him. The wedding just has not been consummated yet. The question then becomes, "Would God send a man to us to commit adultery?"

Furthermore in Zechariah 12:1, 10 Jehovah God (in his own words; read the Hebrew title of God used here) is prophesied as being pierced and presumably to the death of him since the mourning that is mentioned seems to be that of mourning the death of a dearly loved individual. God here also likens himself to the first-born and to an only child. We later read in the New Testament that the Messiah is the first-born of Mary and presumably of God and is the only begotten (i.e. in a sense, the only child) of God.

Jesus is the very image of God on earth. The Spirit within him appears to be the Spirit of God. His deeds are perfect. He is in total agreement with God. He is the Son of God which makes him at least part of his Father since a son is part of his father. Whatever he is - and I think it appears clear to me who he is - is not a part of the Gospel. The Gospel message is that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob has taken away our sins through the Messiah's atoning sacrifice. How we understand the intricacies of God's eternal existence or what he is made out of or how he is composed - whether of a singular, dual or plural nature - is of significance but only of secondary importance. God loved you so much that he had already sacrificed his Son to save you. Do you think he wanted to make it impossibly difficult for you to receive that payment so that his Son's sacrifice would be of some worth?

This is all my opinion, but I believe it to be a sound observation.

 

[shad]

Pacrat,

Jesus is sent by God(YHWH), His Father. Jesus says it over and over. It is illogical to say that Jesus is equal with His Father. If He was equal with Him He would not be sent. His position is submissive to His Father throughout the Bible. If He was equal with His Father, He would not have be so submissive to Him. On the other hand His Father is always in charge and never submissive to anyone.

You can see why trinity is illogical and why trinitarians have a hard time explaining it. It is illogical in every way.

 

[rosswell]

I dont even vote because it does not matter who gets elected. This world is corrupt because satan is in charge of this world. God gave governments for secular people. This world will stay corrupted and it will get even worse, according to the Bible.

The governments make laws according to what the majority wants, not what God wants them to do.

I don't vote either but for a different reason. We taught in scripture to submit to the government not to try to form its policy. We are assured that it is God's chosen instrument for our good and that He directs it according to His will. It has nothing to do with them being righteous, just that they fill a God given role.

 

[Pard]

I dont even vote because it does not matter who gets elected. This world is corrupt because satan is in charge of this world. God gave governments for secular people. This world will stay corrupted and it will get even worse, according to the Bible.

The governments make laws according to what the majority wants, not what God wants them to do.

I don't vote either but for a different reason. We taught in scripture to submit to the government not to try to form its policy. We are assured that it is God's chosen instrument for our good and that He directs it according to His will. It has nothing to do with them being righteous, just that they fill a God given role.

Ross, this reminds me of a story my dad likes to tell.

A man prays to God everyday of his life to win the lottery. Yet he never, not even once, wins the lottery. When he dies he asks God "Why did you not give me what I prayed for?" In response God said "You never bought a lottery ticket."

Now, I am sorry that the topic is on the lottery, I have reservations about the lottery, but the point still gets across. It is very true that God's chosen instrument will be picked. However, in our government, if no one votes (everyone figuring God will just pick who he wants) than no one gets elected and God's chosen person is not put in place.

When some of the apostles died they voted between them for who would take the place of the dead apostles. They knew God would make sure the person who won was who He wanted, but He did it through their ballots, not by saying explicitly who it was.

 

[shad]

I don't vote either but for a different reason. We taught in scripture to submit to the government not to try to form its policy. We are assured that it is God's chosen instrument for our good and that He directs it according to His will. It has nothing to do with them being righteous, just that they fill a God given role.

Everything or anyone can be as God's instrument. But we have to be truthful servants or we will not be counted as faithful. Even the Babylon and Nebuchadnezzar was used as God's instrument.

 

[Elijah674]

I don't vote either but for a different reason. We taught in scripture to submit to the government not to try to form its policy. We are assured that it is God's chosen instrument for our good and that He directs it according to His will. It has nothing to do with them being righteous, just that they fill a God given role.

Everything or anyone can be as God's instrument. But we have to be truthful servants or we will not be counted as faithful. Even the Babylon and Nebuchadnezzar was used as God's instrument.

Are you telling me the Rom. 13 chapter is setting up a USA CEASAR GOVERNMENT to rule over Christ + the Godhesad?? You best re/read the N.T. verses of Christ and on through Rom. 13's [INSPIRATION]. But yes Rome will wear 'part of' those verses out, huh!
--Elijah

 

[Elvispelvis]

The question asked was who was Jesus, or what was Jesus?

Lets begin at " The son Of God" this makes him a truly special person.!

Hbr 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.

TEMPTED EXACTLY LIKE US YET GOD CANNOT BE TEMPTED.

Modern churches have no answer for these verses so they ignore me.

I asked earlier in this post for one person to come up with a single verse that says in the bible
God The Father , God the Son , God the Holy Spirit.

Not one person could find such a passage any where in the Bible

NOT ONE TRINITARIAN ANSWERED ME WITH THIS VERSE WHY?

Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

For those who say He is God these verses are totally ignored.

I wish a Trinitarian tried to answer these verses in stead of trying to avoid these verses by bringing in other verses.
No-one as a Trinitarian can possibly hope to answer theses verses so they ignore them .

I have heard all the wrested scripture from Trinitarians yet not one can answer the verses I put forward.

Psa 78:5 For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children:
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.

1Jo 4:1 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

] 1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Trinitarians have no concept of what these verses are talking about.

Antichrist was already working in the time of the apostles.


Antichrist is not future but is alive and well denying that Jesus came in the flesh.
Trinitarians do not understand what it means to" come in the flesh."

The old testament is full of future events, prophecy.
Please study the old testment.

 

[Packrat]

Pacrat,

Jesus is sent by God(YHWH), His Father. Jesus says it over and over. It is illogical to say that Jesus is equal with His Father. If He was equal with Him He would not be sent. His position is submissive to His Father throughout the Bible. If He was equal with His Father, He would not have be so submissive to Him. On the other hand His Father is always in charge and never submissive to anyone.

You can see why trinity is illogical and why trinitarians have a hard time explaining it. It is illogical in every way.

Shad, God the Father is the head. This means he makes all the decisions for the body of God. Jesus also said that he would ask the Father (i.e. God) and the Father would send the Holy Spirit. So do you believe the Holy Spirit is not God (John 14:26)?

I see nothing illogical with a mother and unborn child being considered as one human being and yet being two human beings. If it is possible for us to be plural and yet singular in nature then it is certainly possible for God. It doesn't matter if the baby in the mother is later born and cut off from her just as long as the two are one at least at some point in time.

 

[Packrat]

NOT ONE TRINITARIAN ANSWERED ME WITH THIS VERSE WHY?

Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

For those who say He is God these verses are totally ignored.

I wish a Trinitarian tried to answer these verses in stead of trying to avoid these verses by bringing in other verses.

We have to take the Bible as a whole. Tempt seems to be interchangeable with test. I could supply passages of Scripture in the Old/New Testaments that say that God was tested (Exodus 17:2, Deuteronomy 6:16, Acts 15:10) and that he tests others (Genesis 22:1, Matthew 6:13). James 1:13 doesn't just say that God cannot be tempted but says that God cannot be tempted by evil. Could someone tempt me to harm myself if I were an omnipotent being? Not hardly. Could someone tempt God to go against his nature? No. However, if he posed limitations on himself and came in the flesh then his flesh could be tempted with, say, bread when it got hungry. The flavor of "tempt" in the James 1:13 passage equates to "tempting with evil" and not with mere testing. James 1:13 is saying that God cannot be tempted with evil and that he does not tempt others with evil.

Matthew 6:13 seems to suggest, though, that God can take advantage of temptation for his own purposes.

Did you know that the Holy Spirit of God intercedes to God on our behalf (Romans 8:26)? Did you know that God talked to himself when he was about to make Man in his image (Genesis 1:26)? It wasn't the angels he was talking to, because Genesis 1:27 doesn't say that God made Man in his image and the angels' image unless of course you believe that Elohim here refers to the angels as well.

However, I've heard that the verb for "said" was translated from a singular verb in Hebrew. If Elohim is referring to both God and the angels in this passage then how are we to make heads or tails of what's going on? Whether or not he is three in one, seven in one or just one in one I believe God talked to himself in this passage. You could also say that God talked to himself in previous passages when he was creating the universe with his words. So it doesn't seem like that far of a leap for Christ to be God and to talk to God at the same time. It seems that we do indeed have a peculiar God.

As to whether God can take on human form, see Genesis 18. Also remember that humans were made in God's image. If God takes on human form then it's not God being made in our image since we are already made in his. He is simply taking on his own form but in the flesh. This does away with the conception of creating an idol in Christ.

 

[rosswell]

Our leaders are chosen by the majority under our current government. The majority are lost sinners. There is no way we could prevail even if all Christians were able to agree on the right man for the job. God, on the other hand, is able to direct the hearts of the people as He chooses. If you have any verses which show we should be involved in government policy please show them.

 

[jasoncran]

Our leaders are chosen by the majority under our current government. The majority are lost sinners. There is no way we could prevail even if all Christians were able to agree on the right man for the job. God, on the other hand, is able to direct the hearts of the people as He chooses. If you have any verses which show we should be involved in government policy please show them.

render unto caeser what is ceaser. paying taxes enables the govt to do what it does.

at one time the national debt was low enough that if all the persons that owed were to pay up it would be eliminated! this was in the early bush yrs! so we do have an effect.
one person in my city council may cause 100 to loose their jobs. if he has his way.