If you believe you can lose your salvation, you are not saved!(explanation)

[WIP]

How, and please be really clear about this, do you know that it is not possible that those people who really believe in Him will produce lots of good works and that God will look on those good works as the evidence for true belief

Does this maybe address this question at least in part?

Then He spoke many things to them in parables, saying: “Behold, a sower went out to sow. And as he sowed, some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds came and devoured them. Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away. And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them. But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!” Matthew 13:3-9 NKJV

“Therefore hear the parable of the sower: When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.” Matthew 13:18-23 NKJV

 

[FreeGrace]

That's not the point. You said "Paul defined "work" as something that creates a debt owed". I agree, however faithful obedience does not create "a debt owed" either. Therefore it does not fit into Paul's category of "works". Are we in agreement here?

Depends on what one thinks the "faithful obedience" is for.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What your doctrine teaches is: you don't have to obey God to be accounted as righteous.

Correct.
You believe God's Word about the forgiveness of sins and you are made righteous (justified) by that belief:

"being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption (the forgiveness of sins--Ephesians 1:7 NASB) which is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:24 NASB)

Your behavior after that shows whether you have that justification--Christ's righteousness--or not:

"the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil" (1 John 3:7-8 NASB).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And no one goes to heaven because of "faithful obedience".

Well, actually they do in that faithful obedience signifies that one has been justified--made righteous by the forgiveness of sins received through faith, and therefore, fit for entry into the kingdom of heaven.

“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 ‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me." (Matthew 25:34-36 NASB)

Works themselves do not earn entry into the kingdom. They are only the obligatory footprints that justifying faith leaves, validating that faith as able to make one righteous.

 

[JLB]

Correct.
You believe God's Word about the forgiveness of sins and you are made righteous (justified) by that belief:

"being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption (the forgiveness of sins--Ephesians 1:7 NASB) which is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:24 NASB)

This is what Ephesians 1:7 says in the NASB.

In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace.
Ephesians 1:7 NASB

This grace from God is a gift that we receive through faith in Jesus Christ.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Ephesians 2:8

Faith is dead, and does not function, without the act or work of obedience.

The way we appropriate this forgiveness is by obedience to the Gospel Message which says...

Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
Acts 5:31

Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord
Acts 3:19

And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment.
21 For she said to herself, "If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well."
22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, "Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well." And the woman was made well from that hour. Matthew 9:20-22


If this woman only believed within her heart, and did not do the action of faith, by touching His garment, would she have been made well?

Likewise is we don't obey the Gospel Message by turning to God, and acknowledging Jesus as Lord, our faith is dead and will not appropriate the forgiveness of sins.

Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out...


JLB

 

[dadof10]

Depends on what one thinks the "faithful obedience" is for.

LOL..Why would that matter? Either it's included in the definition or it's not. Either faithful obedience "creates a debt owed" or it doesn't. Of course, if you have a preconceived notion and everything has to be forced into it, it might matter. If we just honestly look at the subject without bias, it will be quite apparent that a person can obey and do something without creating a debt. I'm sure you do plenty of good deeds for others without expecting recompense. Same here. Paul is reacting to the Jewish concept that IF they perform the law of Moses, THEN God will bless them. Work/reward. He is not even thinking about charity, keeping the commandments, baptism, etc. Only "works of the Mosaic law".

 

[JLB]

And no one goes to heaven because of "faithful obedience".

more of your opinion with no scripture.

What scripture says this?


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

LOL..Why would that matter? Either it's included in the definition or it's not. Either faithful obedience "creates a debt owed" or it doesn't.

Of course it matters. And it matters a whole lot. If faithful obedience is FOR salvation, then God's plan is salvation by works. If faithful obedience is FOR eternal reward, above and beyond entering into heaven, then we are rewarded for faithful obedience, exactly what Col 3:23-24 says:
23Whatever you do work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men,
24since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.

Those who confuse or conflate these two different subjects fail to rightly divie the Word of Truth.

So, yet, it does matter greatly.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"And no one goes to heaven because of "faithful obedience"."

more of your opinion with no scripture.

What scripture says this?JLB

Why would one think that I think Scripture would say that one goes to heaven because of faithful obedience?? My statement is very clear that I believe that the Bible DOES NOT say that anyone goes to heaven because of faithful obedience.

If the Bible does say that one goes to heaven for faithful obedience, where is that verse?

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"And no one goes to heaven because of "faithful obedience"."

And I said this - What scripture says this?

If you don't have a scripture for your statement, then I will just caulk it up to yet another one of your many opinions that you post frequently and have no scripture to back it up.

I will be patiently waiting for you to post the scripture that says no one goes to heaven because of "faithful obedience".




JLB

 

[dadof10]

Of course it matters. And it matters a whole lot. If faithful obedience is FOR salvation, then God's plan is salvation by works.

Not if faithful obedience is not a "work". That's what we're discussing. In Paul's "faith vs. works" sections, the word "works" is rightly defined as works of the law that "create a debt owed". We agree, on the last half of the sentence at least. Therefore, if an action does not "create a debt owed", it is not by definition (literally) a "work". Doesn't this make sense to you?

If faithful obedience is FOR eternal reward, above and beyond entering into heaven, then we are rewarded for faithful obedience, exactly what Col 3:23-24 says:
23Whatever you do work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men,
24since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.

Those who confuse or conflate these two different subjects fail to rightly divie the Word of Truth.

So, yet, it does matter greatly.

So, let me get this straight. The only way you'll accept that "faithful obedience" is not a "work" has nothing to do with whether it "creates a debt owed" or not. You will only accept it IF it fits into your theological box. Why can't you simply answer the question. Does faithful obedience create a debt owed? Can a person perform any good deed without creating a debt owed?

 

[FreeGrace]

And I said this - What scripture says this?

If you don't have a scripture for your statement, then I will just caulk it up to yet another one of your many opinions that you post frequently and have no scripture to back it up.

I will be patiently waiting for you to post the scripture that says no one goes to heaven because of "faithful obedience".JLB

As I have already explained, Scripture nowhere teaches that one goes to heaven because of faithful obedience.

Why should anyone believe what is NOT FOUND IN SCRIPTURE??

Since there is disagreement with my statement, please prove the opposite; that Scripture DOES teach that one goes to heaven because of faithful obedience.

I'll be patiently waiting for a post with Scripture to back up your apparent belief.

 

[FreeGrace]

Not if faithful obedience is not a "work". That's what we're discussing. In Paul's "faith vs. works" sections, the word "works" is rightly defined as works of the law that "create a debt owed". We agree, on the last half of the sentence at least.

No, we don't agree. No where in Romans 4 does Paul equate works or deeds as being "of the law". His point in 4:4 is about working FOR PAY. Consider 4:4 - Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as avgift, but as an obligation.

So, therefore, Paul did NOT have the "works of the law" in mind here, but rather, working for pay, which is basically creating a debt that is owed BY the one to whom the work was performed FOR the one performing the work.

Further, Paul begins ch 4 with Abraham, who lived centuries BEFORE the law came. 430 years later, to be exact, per Gal 3:17.

Therefore, if an action does not "create a debt owed", it is not by definition (literally) a "work". Doesn't this make sense to you?

What does make sense to me is that Paul was NOT speaking or referring to deeds of the law, but rather work for which one is PAID by the employer. And Paul clearly differentiated work from faith both in Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9.

So, let me get this straight.

That is exactly what I'm hoping for.

The only way you'll accept that "faithful obedience" is not a "work" has nothing to do with whether it "creates a debt owed" or not. You will only accept it IF it fits into your theological box.

Wrong. Actually any type of effort on the believer's part is a work. And God WILL recompense for that work. It's called "reward" in Scripture.

Why can't you simply answer the question. Does faithful obedience create a debt owed?

Yes, but only for reward. Not for salvation.

Can a person perform any good deed without creating a debt owed?

Depends on the person's attitude. Jesus took the Pharisees to task for all their good deeds and law following but didn't have the right attitude about it.

 

[dadof10]

Wrong. Actually any type of effort on the believer's part is a work.

Really, this is the heart of the matter, this is what we are really arguing about. Could you please show me where in Scripture this is? Where does Paul contrast faith and "any type of effort on the believer's part". And, remember what you said:

"Why should anyone believe what is NOT FOUND IN SCRIPTURE??"

Which is not in Scripture either.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As I have already explained, Scripture nowhere teaches that one goes to heaven because of faithful obedience.

And as I have already shown, yes the Bible does teach that one goes to heaven because of faithful obedience:

“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 ‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ (Matthew 25:34-36 NASB italics in original)

Can't wait until you explain to us how it doesn't really mean what it says.

 

[JLB]

As I have already explained, Scripture nowhere teaches that one goes to heaven because of faithful obedience.

Yes you have already said this.

Now, all that is left is for you to post the scriptures that teach us this claim you have made.

JLB

 

[JLB]

As I have already explained, Scripture nowhere teaches that one goes to heaven because of faithful obedience.

Why should anyone believe what is NOT FOUND IN SCRIPTURE??

Since there is disagreement with my statement, please prove the opposite; that Scripture DOES teach that one goes to heaven because of faithful obedience.

I'll be patiently waiting for a post with Scripture to back up your apparent belief.

My first choice would have been what Jethro posted. Matthew 25:31-40

However this scripture will work
(pun intended) just fine.

In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. Acts 10:34-35

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

1I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,...[Romans 9:1-4, NASB]

If you can give an account as to how this text does not undermine your view about the universality of the Law of Moses, I (and likely others) would like to hear it.

There's nothing hard to understand about the knowledge of the law coming into the world through the nation of the Israelites. That's how you and I learned it--they wrote it down. The problem is you are drawing your own conclusion that means the law is only for natural Isrealites to follow, ignoring the fact that the nation of Israel has always had gentiles in it, and that the law itself tells them they are to follow the same law as the native Israelite, not that they are exempt from it (Exodus 12:47-49 NASB, Numbers 15:15,16,29 NASB). It's impossible to say the law was not for them too. It plainly says that it was.

11and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. [Colossians 2:11-12, NASB]

Paul is clearly talking to Jews here. And this is really clear, let there be no mistake: When Paul tells the "you" that he is addressing that they are also circumcised in a non-physical way, he can only be talking about people who are physically circumcised as well.

No, you're mishandling the passage. Read it. The 'also' is not referring to spiritual circumcision being an addition to their physical circumcision. The 'also' means in addition to being spiritually circumcised you "have been made complete (in him)". It plainly says this in verse 10 (Colossians 2:10-11 NASB), which you left out of the passage you quoted.


We can't lose sight of why you think it important to this discussion that 'works' in Paul's faith/works teaching can only mean the literal works of the law of Moses and not any and all righteous things a person can do. You're going down this bunny trail about the law unnecessarily.

Your argument is moot by the simple fact that by the nature of what Paul says does make you legally righteous--having your sins forgiven through faith in Christ's blood to do that for you (Romans 3:24-25 NASB)--it automatically excludes anything else that you can do or say or think that could, in and of itself, wipe away unrighteousness. You see what I'm saying?

But I'm in agreement with you in that doesn't mean that the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works can be alone. If faith remains alone then it was either never of a quality to be able to justify in the first place, or that faith ended somewhere along the line. For John says very plainly that righteous people do righteous things, showing themselves to have the righteousness of Christ (1 John 3:7 NASB). While evil people show they do not have Christ's righteousness through faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

1) Abraham had the "kind of" faith that "received divine approval"
2) By this faith, which was approved by God he "obeyed God".
3) By this obedient faith that received divine approval, he trusted God and "went out, not knowing where he was to go."
4) This is an example of "dead faith".

Do I have this about right?

1) Of course Abraham's faith prior to Genesis 15:6 NASB solicited God's approval. The mistake you make is thinking that any and all faith in any and all circumstances makes a person righteous. The Bible says he was justified in Genesis 15. You have to add to the Bible to insist that he was justified before that. (And let's not forget the reason why you have to believe that).

You keep ignoring examples of faith prior to salvation which demonstrate how one can have faith prior to actually being justified by faith somewhere along the way. My life is a perfect example of that. But more importantly, so is Cornelius'. So if you don't want to listen to me, at least heed his example in scripture.

2) That's what faith does. It moves us to obey God if we'll let it. But that hardly means any and all actions of faith mean the person has been declared legally righteous, or is being legally declared righteous by that action (besides the fact that justification is by faith all by itself anyway--Romans 3:24-25 NASB).

3) Do you have an actual salvation experience? Remember all the faithful, obedient things you did before you actually got saved?

4) It wasn't dead in that it did something. But as I'm proving to you, just because faith has actions attached doesn't automatically qualify that faith as able to make a person legally righteous. You sit in a church full of faithful, obedient people every Sunday--hoards of them probably. Faithful and obedient in that they came to church. Do you think that simply by virtue of them getting out of bed and coming to church that they are made legally righteous in God's sight and are now saved?

The above seems to me a textbook example of justifying faith. Is it that you don't think Abraham trusting God and "going out, not knowing where he was to go" constitutes "righteous work"?

I never said it wasn't. That's not the argument. What I'm resisting is your doctrine that says any and all righteous work makes a person legally righteous before God (besides the fact that it is actually the faith that motivates the work that does that, all by itself). Only believing in God's word about the Promised Son who inherits the blessing on our behalf can do that. You can believe that God exists, and even do righteous things because you do (go to church, give money, etc.), but until you come to that point in your heart that you depend and trust in God's word about the Promised Son you will remain unjustified before God no matter what righteous, even faithful work you do.

What makes you think he wasn't justified before Peter came?

The necessity for Cornelius to hear what Peter had to say. That's what makes me think that.

 

[FreeGrace]

Really, this is the heart of the matter, this is what we are really arguing about. Could you please show me where in Scripture this is? Where does Paul contrast faith and "any type of effort on the believer's part". And, remember what you said:

"Why should anyone believe what is NOT FOUND IN SCRIPTURE??"

Which is not in Scripture either.

Paul contrasted faith with works. That says it all. I have no idea what your view of a "work" is, but Paul made it clear enough, which I've already commented on.

Please answer this: what is "work" for in Scripture? Why should people perform work, however it may be defined?