If you believe you can lose your salvation, you are not saved!(explanation)

[JLB]

Because they had an obedient faith and trusted in God, like Abraham?

 

[JLB]

Now go back and actually read what I posted.

I quoted exactly what you posted. word for word.

Does it even show them to be righteous? No, of course, it does not do either.

4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks. Hebrews 11:4

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.Hebrews 11:7


Faith comes by hearing God.

Righteousness is obtained by doing what you hear God tell you to do.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You need to pay attention. This is what I cited:

3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. (Hebrews 11:3 NASB)

This faith in no way shape or form makes a person righteous. It defeats the argument that by virtue of it being in Hebrews 11 it has to be and example of the faith that justifies.

 

[JLB]

Kind of like when I did the same thing and got out of bed to go to church to find out how to be saved. As admirable and commendable as that faith was, I didn't have the faith that justifies until months later when I believed so as to accept God's forgiveness in Christ.

If you didn't obey what God said, which is how you got faith, then you wouldn't have gotten saved.

Just exactly like the house of Cornelius got saved by the obedience of faith.

Faith only comes from God.

Only faith that obeys, makes one righteous.

By faith means you obey the voice of God.

No Obedience = No Faith. Faith without obedience is dead.

No obedience = No righteousness

Obedience = Righteousness.

Only those who obey are righteous.


JLB

 

[JLB]

You need to pay attention. This is what I cited:

3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. (Hebrews 11:3 NASB)

This faith in no way shape or form makes a person righteous. It defeats the argument that by virtue of it being in Hebrews 11 it has to be and example of the faith that justifies.

Brother, I quoted your post. Plain and simple.

Here is what you said in black and white -

Does it even show them to be righteous? No, of course, it does not do either.

I know its hard to believe, that you yourself could possibly say such a thing, but you did.


JLB

 

[dadof10]

No.
Because they received the Holy Spirit!


Then why are you commenting on Abraham's personal story--you know the part where YOU are filling in the blanks.


I did not know where I was going either. I knew very little about the gospel. I knew what the end was--salvation, but I stepped out in faith and trust to find out more. That faith did not make me righteous. You are claiming that Abraham's example is categorically how one gets justified, yet when I have that experience you refuse to pass judgment on it. And that you shouldn't. And neither should you in regard to Abraham's experience. You don't know. The Bible doesn't tell us.

The reason I hesitate to comment on a personal witness is that I don't want to offend that person by wrongly assuming that what he means is what I read. People get offended if you misinterpret what they say and comment. II dont have this same problem with Abraham because he's....dead. Kinda hard to offend him.

 

[dadof10]

Okay, so you do see the necessity to distinguish between specific moments of faith as to whether they can justify or not. You were pretty insistent that just the fact a person had faith that acted that means they were justified by that action, and were using that to claim Abraham was justified in Genesis 12:4 NASB. But now we know you really do distinguish between acts of faith. Good.

I always have. The difference is when I see the words "By faith Abraham obeyed...” I think this is an example of obedient faith.

And let's get this straight right now. Remember I told you Abraham getting justified in Genesis 12:4 NASB--if he did--has no bearing on the argument that what you do makes you righteous. You can't prove from that passage that what he did justified him (made him righteous) and not his faith all by itself any more than you can from Genesis 15:6 NASB). Actually, since Abraham did not do anything in Genesis 15:6 NASB , but was still justified (re-justified to you), that indicates very clearly that justification/ re-justification occurs APART from anything you do. Even you have to admit that. But we know that already because Paul plainly said justification is by having your sins forgiven. That automatically rules out anything a person can do to be made righteous

.
That's because "what justifies" is not being argued. In fact, in case you haven't noticed, I'm conceding your point (for the sake if argument) that "obedient faith is the only thing that justifies". The argument here is not whether "faith all by itself, is the only thing that justifies", but whether justification can be lost.

You're honestly going to argue that the person who gives $100.00, or $1000.00, so God will bless them back is not a genuine trust in God? Really? Of course it is. And it plainly demonstrates how that trust/faith hardly is what makes a person righteous.

Fait that trusts God will give money and faith that trusts God will fulfill a promise are two different things, don't you think? Remember, God promised to give Abraham a homeland, Abraham trusted in that promise by faith. Surely you see a difference here.

So when I was obedient to get out of bed and go to church, trusting God to tell me how to get saved that was not obedient trusting faith? What was it then? Disobedience? Faithlessness? I'm pretty sure staying in bed would have been disobedience and a lack of faith.

I don't know. You tell me, its your story. This is why I hesitated to comment. Up until now, you have not mentioned that you were "trusting God to tell me how to get saved”. If that what you did, fine. But I didn't comment on that because you haven't mentioned it until now.

I have to go now. I will start addressing the things that are actually relevant to your doctrine (instead of these side bar things) like how it is that Abraham getting justified in Genesis 12:4 somehow proves that what he did, not his faith all by itself, is what justified him there. Your answer is?

For the sake of argument, I've conceded this point. What I'm arguing is that he was justified by ”obedient trusting faith. Only faith, faith all by itself" or however else you want to phrase it, in Gen. 12. That's what Hebrews 11 says.

 

[JLB]

Does it even show them to be righteous? No, of course, it does not do either. But you are insisting that any and all faith makes a person righteous. Right from Hebrews 11 itself we see that's not true at all.

Hopefully by this statement, it should be clear, just how much you have misunderstood both the scriptures and what they clearly teach about being justified by the obedience of faith, which simply means justified by obeying God.


JLB

 

[Drew]

Do you know what 'under' the law of Moses means? Can you cite some passages?

And just so you understand, gentile Christians are NOT under the law of Moses. Neither are believing Jews. But you have to know what being 'under' the law means to know that.

"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us" (Galatians 3:13 NASB italics mine)

I am not sure what you are asking. All I am saying is that the Law of Moses only applies to Jews in the sense that only Jews are in any sense obligated to follow its prescriptions. In the same way Canadian laws "apply to" Canadians, and not Americans, even though - and I think this consideration often muddles the issue - American laws are often the same in content as Canadian Law. But let's be clear: even though an American should not commit murder, and is most certainly legally required by American Law to not commit murder, the fact that murder is also illegal under Canadian law does not give license to say the American is subject to Canadian law.

 

[Drew]

"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us" (Galatians 3:13 NASB italics mine)

I think you are begging the question if your argument is that this text shows that Gentiles are expected (by God) to follow the Law of Moses - as in the "us" here are all humans, both Jew and Gentile. I think that Paul is directing this remark (above) to Jews only. After all, we know from earlier in the passage that Paul has the two categories - Jew and Gentile - on his mind

The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations will be blessed in you." [Galatians 3:8, NASB]

The point is that this shows that Paul is not necessarily making all his statements about humanity in general. After all, the "you" in "All the nations will be blessed in you" statement is clearly a reference to Abraham's role as father of the Jewish nation. And even if you don't agree with that, the Jew vs Gentile distinction is there elsewhere in the passage.

So even though he does not say so explicitly in 3:13, that verse certainly could read as being directed Jews only. And, for a wide range of reasons I have yet to get into, I am confident that it is.

 

[Drew]

The law was literally given to the people of God--which has ALWAYS been composed of both Jew and gentile (Exodus 12:38 NASB).

It is the bigoted Jews who decided it was all there's and only there's. Big mistake.
They don't even know their own law.

You posted this in response to my post 116 in which I cited a number of texts that I believe comprise compelling evidence that the Law of Moses was given to Jews only. This response really does not address those texts - you provide another, different text and argue that it supports the notion that the Law of Moses applies to Gentiles. I believe you need to provide an argument that squarely addresses the texts I provided in post 116 and shows how these texts could be read in a manner consistent with the assertion that the Law of Moses was given to all humanity.

Your post 125 also quotes my post 116 but, again, while you provide arguments in response, you do not, I politely suggest give an account of how the verse I provided in post 116 could be read in a manner consistent with the assertion that the Law of Moses was given to all humanity.

 

[JLB]

I am not sure what you are asking. All I am saying is that the Law of Moses only applies to Jews in the sense that only Jews are in any sense obligated to follow its prescriptions. In the same way Canadian laws "apply to" Canadians, and not Americans, even though - and I think this consideration often muddles the issue - American laws are often the same in content as Canadian Law. But let's be clear: even though an American should not commit murder, and is most certainly legally required by American Law to not commit murder, the fact that murder is also illegal under Canadian law does not give license to say the American is subject to Canadian law.

Amen.

However, anyone who lives in Canada is subject to Canadian Law.

Just as true, Gentile Christians living in America are not subject to the law of Moses.

However, All Christians are subject to the law of Christ.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hopefully by this statement, it should be clear, just how much you have misunderstood both the scriptures and what they clearly teach about being justified by the obedience of faith, which simply means justified by obeying God.


JLB

I'm going to go with the Bible on this one. It says that a person is justified (made righteous) by the forgiveness of God, not what they do.

"being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption (the forgiveness of sins-Ephesians 1:7 NASB) which is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3: NASB)

By the nature of what having your sins forgiven is, that automatically excludes any and all work a person has do to be justified. It's a free gift.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you didn't obey what God said, which is how you got faith

You have it backwards.
I had faith FIRST, then I responded to his call through that faith. Like Abraham had faith first and then responded to the call:

"By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance" (Hebrews 11:8 NASB)

He had faith then when out. But you have it he went out and then had faith. That's not what it says above.

...then you wouldn't have gotten saved.

Turns out the church I went to could not help me. They played no part whatsoever in my salvation. So what's your point?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I am not sure what you are asking. All I am saying is that the Law of Moses only applies to Jews in the sense that only Jews are in any sense obligated to follow its prescriptions. In the same way Canadian laws "apply to" Canadians, and not Americans, even though - and I think this consideration often muddles the issue - American laws are often the same in content as Canadian Law. But let's be clear: even though an American should not commit murder, and is most certainly legally required by American Law to not commit murder, the fact that murder is also illegal under Canadian law does not give license to say the American is subject to Canadian law.

Very poor analogy.
For your analogy to be accurate it would have to be true that Americans in America are held accountable by Canadian law, just as the whole world is accountable to the law of Moses.

"Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God" (Romans 2:19 NASB)

"But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore, the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. " (Galatians 3:23-24 NASB italics in orig.)

"When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us" (Colossians 2:13-14 NASB)

Your doctrine is simply not going to be able to get around these verses that speak directly the the whole world being responsible to the law, not just Jews.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The difference is when I see the words "By faith Abraham obeyed...” I think this is an example of obedient faith.

Abraham leaving his homeland being an example of obedient faith is not what's in debate.

What you can't show is he was made righteous by doing what he did.
Just as you can't show he was justified by what he did in Genesis 15:6 NASB......oh, wait......he didn't do anything there where you say he was re-justified, except believe. Hmm.......that kind of ruins your theology.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The argument here is not whether "faith all by itself, is the only thing that justifies", but whether justification can be lost.

Well, that's certainly one of the things we've been talking about here.

Hebrews does say justification can be lost, but more importantly, that it can not be regained:

"For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins...
29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance" (Hebrews 10:26,29 NASB, Hebrews 6:4-6 NASB)

But you have Abraham losing the justification you say he got in Genesis 12:4 NASB, but getting it back in Genesis 15:6 NASB. That's not possible according to the author of Hebrews.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

For the sake of argument, I've conceded this point. What I'm arguing is that he was justified by ”obedient trusting faith. Only faith, faith all by itself" or however else you want to phrase it, in Gen. 12. That's what Hebrews 11 says.

Wait. I'm tired, and I'm fighting this fight on several fronts, but are you saying faith does the justifying all by itself, apart from works?

 

[dadof10]

Abraham leaving his homeland being an example of obedient faith is not what's in debate.

What you can't show is he was made righteous by doing what he did.
Just as you can't show he was justified by what he did in Genesis 15:6 NASB......oh, wait......he didn't do anything there where you say he was re-justified, except believe. Hmm.......that kind of ruins your theology.

I don't have to show it. You readily admit that what justifies is obedient faith that trusts God. You have said it many times. What you won't admit is that the sentence "By faith Abraham obeyed..." is an example of obedient faith.

 

[dadof10]

Well, that's certainly one of the things we've been talking about here.

Hebrews does say justification can be lost, but more importantly, that it can not be regained:

"For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins...
29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance" (Hebrews 10:26,29 NASB, Hebrews 6:4-6 NASB)

But you have Abraham losing the justification you say he got in Genesis 12:4 NASB, but getting it back in Genesis 15:6 NASB. That's not possible according to the author of Hebrews.

This is a good point. The author of Hebrews seems to be saying that once a justified person "falls away", he can never be forgiven or re-justified. By the same token, there is no doubt that Abraham was justified (by obedient, trusting faith in God) twice. So, to resolve this seeming contradiction you choose to minimize Abraham's faith in Gen. 12 to keep your "justification is a one time event" theology. These two are easily reconciled by simply realizing that the person who can't be renewed "again to repentance" is an apostate, a person who falls away from the faith. Abraham wasn't, so can lose his justification through lack of faith or doubt or sin or whatever, as long as it doesn't rise to the level of "fall[ing] away (from the true faith): from worship of Jehovah" (parapíptō). Hebrews doesn't say "...and then have sinned" or "...and then have lost faith", it uses the word "parapíptō", which has a specific meaning. Curiously, it's only used this one time in the entire NT. I think (I could be wrong) that might be why some versions translate it "apostatize", maybe because it assumes a total rejection of "the true faith"?