If you believe you can lose your salvation, you are not saved!(explanation)

[FreeGrace]

""If you take Jesus, God takes you"", is how i once heard Salvation explained, and ive yet to see it explained any clearer by people who write 50,000 word essays and include 3456 verses.

The other thing ive noticed, is that there seems to be some serious darkness and confusion around this site regarding WHO saved you.
And, if the debate gets away from James and Hebrews as it should and is turned instead to the simple question, "Who saved you", you can then get the context of the Cross involved in the final answer, which seems to be missing within all this long winded scriptural blathering about "water baptism" and "works", OR any other useless device that steals the Credit from the Sacrifice of Jesus and attempts to exchange it for personal accountability or religiosity or " your good works".

Amen!

 

[FreeGrace]

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9

Eternal Salvation is given to those who obey Him.

Please specify exactly what is to be obeyed then. From Scripture. How many commands of all He commanded must be obeyed?

All of them?
Most of them?
Many of them?
Some of them?
A few of them?

So, how many of all His commands?

If one believes that one must obey Him to be saved, one must be able to clearly and completely define what it means to obey Him.

Please don't give some vague generality. LIst each and every command that must be obeyed to be saved.

 

[FreeGrace]

I added the following (blue) to my post after you replied to me:

Some will ignore the present tense of verbs and assume God will continue to UNcondtionally take one even if one quits taking Christ.

Jn 11:26 "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. "

Believeth is present tense one must CONDITIONALLY continue to keep on believing to never die.
Die is subjunctive mood showing one may or may not die depending upon the circumstance if he continues to believe or not.

Paul answered the jailer's question of what he MUST DO to be saved by telling him "believe (aorist tense) on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved".

Can a Christian remain in a saved condition if he quits repenting?

1 Jn 1:7 does not say the Christian needs to be "saved over and over" but simply states if the Christian walks (present tense) in the light then the blood of Christ cleanses (present tense) away all sins. Again, this is not about being saved over and over again but about already being in a saved condition and remaining in that saved condition is CONDITIONAL upon a ongoing, present tense walk. Can the Christian quit this walk and remain saved? No. Does the Christian lose his salvation and need to be saved again if he sins? No, for IF he continues to walk in the light then all his sins will be cleansed away. Yet IF the Christian quits walking in the light altogether then he will be come lost in his sins and need to be "saved again" as the prodigal was dead then "alive again".

So, basically, one must maintain their own salvation then. One must continue to walk in the light to stay saved.

This totally smacks of saving oneself even though that will be strongly denied by those who believe this.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Here is what Ephesians 1:7 actually says -

In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace. Ephesians 1:7

Here is what Paul also says in the next Chapter.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8


The way we have the forgiveness of sins by repenting.



to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.' Acts 26:18

Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38

Repentance doesn't only mean changing what you do. It also means changing what you believe. We see that in this verse:

"that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance." (Acts 26:20 NASB)

Changing one's mind about Christ (repenting) and turning to God in faith and trust is what solicits God's forgiveness, our justification. Then, after we are forgiven/justified we are expected to perform deeds in keeping with that repentant change of mind.

 

[FreeGrace]

Then a person can become "born again", go out and sin (disobedience) being unrepentant until death, and still be saved?

That seems to be the point of strong contention among those who believe in loss of salvation. To believe that one can lose their salvation is to believe (though most won't accept this) that one can lose their new birth. No such thing. And the new birth includes ETERNAL life. So please don't embarrass yourself by saying that the new birth can die. ETERNAL life cannot die, for it is ETERNAL.

I hope this question is "addressed and answered. Not just ignored or disagreed using some quippy little post".

I answered directly. Once born again, one HAS eternal life. No if's, and's, or but's.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Consider what John the baptist said: “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

The baptism John was referring to was one without water, as he very clearly noted."

So? I don't get your point. Is it that you think "baptism in the Spirit" took the place of "water baptism"? Do you want me to post all the verses in the NT that refer to water baptism?

No, water baptism is a ritual. Spirit baptism is real, not a ritual. Spirit baptism is when the Holy Spirit indwells the believer at the point of faith in Christ and the person is made a "new creation", born again.

There are a number of different baptisms in Scripture. The baptism of Moses, for one, found in 1 Cor 10.

 

[Stan1953]

The requirement for salvation is shown in Rom 10:9-11. Confession brings about salvation. What we confess has to be just that, as the word connotes, we must AGREE with God as to who Jesus is, which comes from faith that God imparts as He draws us.
Working OUT your salvation, or walking the walk, also requires faith, but as James shows, a faith that produces good works. It is very important we know and teach the difference between the two. Perseverance IS under our control, but it is also God who helps give us the strength to persevere, as we need and ask for it. To every circle, there is a beginning, and in the Christians life, THAT beginning is God.

 

[dadof10]

That seems to be the point of strong contention among those who believe in loss of salvation. To believe that one can lose their salvation is to believe (though most won't accept this) that one can lose their new birth. No such thing. And the new birth includes ETERNAL life. So please don't embarrass yourself by saying that the new birth can die. ETERNAL life cannot die, for it is ETERNAL.


I answered directly. Once born again, one HAS eternal life. No if's, and's, or but's.

Ok, then you believe that disobedient faith saves. If a person is saved, no matter what he does, he will make it to Heaven. So, if he is killed while in the process of murdering the woman he just committed adultery with, while coveting her goods, cursing his mother and father and saying a few GD's on the way out, he will still go to Heaven because 30 years ago he "received new birth". Got it.

 

[Stan1953]

Ok, then you believe that disobedient faith saves. If a person is saved, no matter what he does, he will make it to Heaven. So, if he is killed while in the process of murdering the woman he just committed adultery with, while coveting her goods, cursing his mother and father and saying a few GD's on the way out, he will still go to Heaven because 30 years ago he "received new birth". Got it.

I get your point, but these kind of replies take us from the sublime to the ridiculous so to speak. There are more than enough indicators in scripture that we either walk in the spirit or we don't. 1 John 2:1-2 (NIV)
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[dadof10]

I said this:
"Consider what John the baptist said: “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

The baptism John was referring to was one without water, as he very clearly noted."

No, water baptism is a ritual. Spirit baptism is real, not a ritual. Spirit baptism is when the Holy Spirit indwells the believer at the point of faith in Christ and the person is made a "new creation", born again.

There are a number of different baptisms in Scripture. The baptism of Moses, for one, found in 1 Cor 10.

Again, could you please show me where water baptism is called merely a "ritual".

 

[dadof10]

I get your point, but these kind of replies take us from the sublime to the ridiculous so to speak. There are more than enough indicators in scripture that we either walk in the spirit or we don't. 1 John 2:1-2 (NIV)
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

I know. A bit of an exaggeration to prove a point. It is true that some Christian denominations would agree that this hypothetical person would indeed be saved.

 

[Stan1953]

I know. A bit of an exaggeration to prove a point. It is true that some Christian denominations would agree that this hypothetical person would indeed be saved.

Well individuals maybe, in any given denom, but I know of no denom that has this as a part of their SOF.
Sadly, I have heard many use this as an example of why OSAS is wrong, and it is a logical fallacy to do so.
The Bible is not mute on OSAS being invalid.

 

[dadof10]

Well individuals maybe, in any given denom, but I know of no denom that has this as a part of their SOF.
Sadly, I have heard many use this as an example of why OSAS is wrong, and it is a logical fallacy to do so.
The Bible is not mute on OSAS being invalid.

Most fundamentalist OSAS denominations, if not all, believe some variation of "no matter what you do, you can not lose your salvation, because Christ imputed His righteousness on you and holds you in the palm of His hand". By "no matter what you do" they mean "no matter what sin you commit". How can it be a logical fallacy when some (not all) would agree with it?

 

[Stan1953]

Most fundamentalist OSAS denominations, if not all, believe some variation of "no matter what you do, you can not lose your salvation, because Christ imputed His righteousness on you and holds you in the palm of His hand". By "no matter what you do" they mean "no matter what sin you commit". How can it be a logical fallacy when some (not all) would agree with it?

because most of those that do believe in OSAS will say the person wasn't really saved if they sin. Sadly they all overlook that the Bible teaches Christian's do sin and Christian's do fall away into apostasy. If you can find me one SoF that states it's OK to sin or live a sinful lifestyle, I will withdraw my comments.

 

[dadof10]

because most of those that do believe in OSAS will say the person wasn't really saved if they sin. Sadly they all overlook that the Bible teaches Christian's do sin and Christian's do fall away into apostasy. If you can find me one SoF that states it's OK to sin or live a sinful lifestyle, I will withdraw my comments.

Well, no, you're right. It's not in their SOF. But I've heard many a preacher from many a denomination say pretty close to the exact words I posted. The problem is that most don't follow their beliefs to their logical conclusion, which end in "disobedient faith saves". Certainly my extreme, exaggerated example above would be one of those "never saved in the first place" excuses to MOST denominations, but if asked about common, run of the mill, every day sins, they would say they can't keep you fron Heaven. Some actually embrace disobedience, even though it's not written down anywhere.

 

[JLB]

Please specify exactly what is to be obeyed then. From Scripture. How many commands of all He commanded must be obeyed?

All of them?
Most of them?
Many of them?
Some of them?
A few of them?

So, how many of all His commands?

If one believes that one must obey Him to be saved, one must be able to clearly and completely define what it means to obey Him.

Please don't give some vague generality. LIst each and every command that must be obeyed to be saved.

Repent is the Gospel command that is to be obeyed for a person to receive the forgiveness of their sins.

Repent means to turn to God and His power (authority) and kingdom, by turning away from Satan, and from his power and his kingdom.

When we confess Jesus as our Lord, we are proclaiming that we are now citizens of The Lords kingdom and are now longer slaves of the dominion of darkness.

Now that we are part of God's kingdom, we are subjects to His laws and are obligated to obey Him as our Master and Lord and King.

We now have right to become sons of God. John 1:12

This initial obedience to the Gospel command is a life long commitment which is what believe means.

Paul recounts the words of the Lord Jesus to him when he was first converted.

16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me. Acts 26:16-18

That they may receive the forgiveness of sins...


JLB

 

[JLB]

repenting) and turning to God in faith and trust is what solicits God's forgiveness,

Yes sir!

 

[JLB]

To believe that one can lose their salvation is to believe (though most won't accept this) that one can lose their new birth. No such thing. And the new birth includes ETERNAL life. So please don't embarrass yourself by saying that the new birth can die. ETERNAL life cannot die, for it is ETERNAL.

Eternal life is knowing God. John 17:3

He gave those who receive Him the right to BECOME children of God.

11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:11-13

Those who are worthy to obtain the Ressurrection, are called sons of God, and have become equal to the angels.

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36

Angels, who are called sons of God, were cast down to hell, and have lost their life with God, as they are examples to us, not to live as God's sons in a disobedient and ungodly way.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 2 Peter 2:4

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I still don't know why you think Gen. 12 is an example of this kind of faith. It seems to meet all your criteria for a true, saving faith.

Because it doesn't say he was justified by his faith, or by what he did, there in Genesis 12:4. But it does say that he was justified by his faith in Genesis 15:6. And by the nature of what it means to be justified, it is both unnecessary and impossible to be re-justified, so we know this is not another justification occurring there, but his one and only justification (as in being 'made' righteous, not 'shown' to be righteous which occurs over and over).

We've already talked about the 'impossible' part of re-justification. We're not in disagreement that it takes a conscious, willing decision to turn your back on the forgiveness of Christ to come to the point where you lose your justification. Hebrews 10:26-31 is not talking about the weak or ignorant believer who stumbles, but who clings tenaciously to the grace of God. That passage is talking about the willful, arrogant rejecter of the grace they have received in Christ. So we don't need to discuss this reason of the two reasons why re-justification can't occur. Besides, it would be hard to believe and defend any kind of argument that kind of falling away happened to Abraham between Genesis 12 and Genesis 15, and between Genesis 15 and Genesis 22.

What we need to talk about is re-justification being unnecessary for the believing, but weak or ignorant believer who fails. This is the reason that Abraham was not being re-justified in Genesis 15. That simply isn't necessary once a person is justified. They remain justified as long as they keep believing (Don't misunderstand, I know full well the disbelieving that strips you of your justification is not what we are talking about here. We are in agreement about this). So this can't be a re-justification occurring in Genesis 15:6.

 

[FreeGrace]

Ok, then you believe that disobedient faith saves.

No! I never said anything like that. I SAID there is NO SUCH THING as a disobedient faith. There either IS faith, or there isn't faith. The Bible doesn't mention anything about a disobedient faith, nor can anyone demonstrate what that might look like. Please quit twisting my views into such nonsense.

Can a believer (child of God) be disobedient? Of course. Which is why we have Heb 12:5-12.

If a person is saved, no matter what he does, he will make it to Heaven.

Why does that bother some so much? Apparently because of a very limited understanding of God's grace. It isn't about us. It's ALL about Him. He paid for ALL of our sins. So getting into heaven isn't about lifestyle, but rather, it is about having eternal life, which is received when one believes in the Savior for it.

So, if he is killed while in the process of murdering the woman he just committed adultery with, while coveting her goods, cursing his mother and father and saying a few GD's on the way out, he will still go to Heaven because 30 years ago he "received new birth". Got it.

Those who don't like God's grace or plan can make up any other plan they'd rather believe in. But it won't be the truth.

Eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) and God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).