If you believe you can lose your salvation, you are not saved!(explanation)

[FreeGrace]

Again, could you please show me where water baptism is called merely a "ritual".

Really? What ELSE would one call it? How about communion? If not a ritual, what else should it be called?

Ritual defined:
a religious or solemn ceremony consisting of a series of actions performed according to a prescribed order

 

[FreeGrace]

Most fundamentalist OSAS denominations, if not all, believe some variation of "no matter what you do, you can not lose your salvation, because Christ imputed His righteousness on you and holds you in the palm of His hand". By "no matter what you do" they mean "no matter what sin you commit". How can it be a logical fallacy when some (not all) would agree with it?

It's a logical fallacy because the Bible never teaches that.

 

[FreeGrace]

Repent is the Gospel command that is to be obeyed for a person to receive the forgiveness of their sins.

Repent means to turn to God and His power (authority) and kingdom, by turning away from Satan, and from his power and his kingdom.

This is kind of vague. How, specifically, does one "turn away from Satan, his power, and kingdom"?

When we confess Jesus as our Lord, we are proclaiming that we are now citizens of The Lords kingdom and are now longer slaves of the dominion of darkness.

Does this qualify as "turning away from Satan"?

Now that we are part of God's kingdom, we are subjects to His laws and are obligated to obey Him as our Master and Lord and King.

While true, is this required for salvation?

We now have right to become sons of God. John 1:12

Not because of lifestyle obedience, but because of our faith in Christ. Jn 1:12

This initial obedience to the Gospel command is a life long commitment which is what believe means.

What most, such as those who fail to accept the truth of OSAS, is that what is committed is not our lifestyle to God, but our very souls to God for salvation. That's what believing means; to trust, to entrust to. We are entrusting our souls to Christ for salvation. Anything less than that does not save. And there isn't anything one can commit to Christ in the sense of lifestyle or "living for Him" that will result in salvation, but salvation is "not of works, lest any man should boast". Eph 2:9

That they may receive the forgiveness of sins...JLB

Yes. Through faith in Christ. Not through a changed lifestyle.

 

[JLB]

The requirement for salvation is shown in Rom 10:9-11. Confession brings about salvation. What we confess has to be just that, as the word connotes, we must AGREE with God as to who Jesus is, which comes from faith that God imparts as He draws us.

Amen. Well said Stan.

Working OUT your salvation, or walking the walk, also requires faith, but as James shows, a faith that produces good works. It is very important we know and teach the difference between the two. Perseverance IS under our control, but it is also God who helps give us the strength to persevere, as we need and ask for it. To every circle, there is a beginning, and in the Christians life, THAT beginning is God.

It is also good to distinguish between "good works" and the "work of obedience" which the scripture calls the obedience of faith.


JLB

 

[JLB]

And by the nature of what it means to be justified, it is both unnecessary and impossible to be re-justified,

Consider that it is necessary to continue to be justified as you continue to believe and obey.

As it is written -

The just will live by faith..,.That is to say from faith to faith.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Not because of lifestyle obedience, but because of our faith in Christ. Jn 1:12

No such thing as faith without obedience.

Your logical fallacy is you take parts of the Gospel message and cherry pick what your denomination has indoctrinated you to believe, and you explain away the rest of the whole counsel of God.

The way we are eligible to receive the forgiveness of sins is by repenting.

Your mistake is to think its impossible to "turn away" from God after you have turned to him.

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Consider that it is necessary to continue to be justified as you continue to believe and obey.

As it is written -

The just will live by faith..,.That is to say from faith to faith.
JLB

Since that verse doesn't support your claim, what verse or verses actually support your claim that it is necessary to "continue to be justified".

 

[JLB]

Ritual defined:
a religious or solemn ceremony consisting of a series of actions performed according to a prescribed order

This would not define Baptism.

I may define communion.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

No such thing as faith without obedience.

The "obedience of faith" refers to placing one's full trust and reliance on Jesus Christ for salvation. Beyond that, it becomes an issue of how the child of God behaves. Not all believers behave all the time. In fact, NO believer behaves all the time, as proved by the FACT that all believers continue to sin. Sin is disobedience.

Some believers behave most of the time.
Some believers behave sometimes.
Some believers behave very little.

Eternal rewards is based on how much a believer behaves according to God's Word.

Your logical fallacy is you take parts of the Gospel message and cherry pick what your denomination has indoctrinated you to believe, and you explain away the rest of the whole counsel of God.

lol Why haven't my posts and views been refuted from Scripture then? Disagreement does not equal refutation.

The way we are eligible to receive the forgiveness of sins is by repenting.

What does Acts 10:43 say?

Your mistake is to think its impossible to "turn away" from God after you have turned to him.

JLB

I never said anything close to that. Of course a child of God can rebel against Him. The Scriptures are full of examples.

One glaring example is King Saul, about which the Bibles says this:
13So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against the LORD, because of the word of the LORD which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it, 14and did not inquire of the LORD. Therefore He killed him and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse. 1 Chron 10:13,14

Yet, in spite of this, this is what Samuel told Saul the day before Saul died:
“Moreover the LORD will also give over Israel along with you into the hands of the Philistines, therefore tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. Indeed the LORD will give over the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines!”

This occurred during a seance where Samuel came back from the dead. It should be clear to anyone who claims to be a student of the Word that Samuel was not referring to "the grave" by the phrase "will be with me", because as a true prophet of the LORD, Samuel clearly was in Paradise, the place where all OT believers went after physical death.

And this is exactly what he was referring to by that phrase.

 

[FreeGrace]

This would not define Baptism.

Which baptism does this refer to?

I may define communion.JLB

Please do.

 

[JLB]

The "obedience of faith" refers to placing one's full trust and reliance on Jesus Christ for salvation.

The word obey or the description of obedience is not mentioned in your "explanation", so therefore your explanation is invalid.

The obedience of faith is obeying God.

God speaks to a person which produces faith in them.

The person responds with the corresponding action of obedience which produces a divine result.

Here is an example from the scriptures.

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7

God told Noah to build the Ark because He was going to flood the earth with water.

Noah moved with godly fear and built the Ark and saved his family.

This is an example of the obedience of faith.


JLB

 

[dianegcook]

Romans 6:23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Ask yourself, is a gift free? Who pays for a gift the giver or the receiver? Who had to pay for our eternal life? How did it get paid? How many times do you have to receive eternal life as a free gift for it to last forever? If you believe you can lose your salvation, you will end up working and putting your effort into doing, or not doing that you think makes you lose your salvation, like committing big sins of adultery, or even worse. When you are done living your life, you die and you meet God, you are telling God he is in DEBT and owes it to you to save you from burning in hell, because of SOMETHING YOU DID here on earth to try to keep your salvation. Does the bible says God owes us anything? Is there a single promise in the bible for partial faith in Christ, and partially in your good works, or giving up sins to save you? The promise is for those who ONLY believe ON Jesus for salvation. Lets take a look at what Jesus is going to say to the best christians out there, who failed to trust ON Jesus olny, but relied in their good works to save them: Matthew 7:22 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Notice, it doesn't say I used to know you and you lost your salvation because of a big sin, he NEVER knew you, that means you were never born again(saved) to begin with. Lets look at a verse where the bible clearly states the believer CAN KNOW he has everlasting life, which means he can be 100% sure he is saved, and on his way to heaven. 1 john 5:13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." If you don't believe you have eternal life this moment, and that you are saved forever, and must do something to keep your salvation, you are making God a liar, because he said we can know, I will throw a few more verses in to show that salvation is by faith only!
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. Ephesians 2:8,9 we are told, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Now, lets look at what God thinks of your self effort toward getting into heaven by your good works, or giving up sins!
Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

I guess, I am not saved, according to you.
Isn't that contradiction?
I'm not saved if I do not believe in OSAS.

 

[Drew]

Yes. Your "new and improved" version isn't what I've done at all. If the video evidence is bogus, that is up to experts to determine.

Here's the better question: why should anyone believe that no context for the Law of Moses conclude that Eph 2:9 refers to "works of the Law of Moses"?

I don't think we are going to get anywhere on this analogy, so I will drop it.

What do you mean by "no context"? My argument is really really simple. And it is this, in very short form:

1. Paul denies "justification by works" in verse 9.

2. He does not say "good works", so it is at least possible that he could be referring to the works of the Law of Moses. If you deny this, you are simply not debating fairly.

3. He then writes a lengthy "therefore" explanation, in verses 11 and following, which deals with the very thing you would expect someone to write if they had just denied justification by works of the Law of Moses - that now the Gentile, who could of course not do the works of the Law of Moses which was only given to Jews, is now "part of the family of God".

In all candor, this is a slam-dunk. Your response is arguably an evasion - making a vague claim about context and not dealing with the argument.

Let me try to smoke you out. Consider a scenario where it is well known that the rich members of a certain golf club (and their children) engage in a set of distinctive practices that effectively say to the world "I am member of this golf club and you are not". Things like wearing a jacket with the name of the golf club on it, wearing white shoes, eating special food, etc. etc. Now, of course, these people also do "good deeds" Then suppose I wrote this:

People do not get into Harvard by "works", therefore people who do not belong to the golf club can get into Harvard.

Clearly I am not talking about the "good works" that these golfers do, I am talking about the "works" that set these people apart as members of this club.

Agree?

 

[Drew]

Romans 7:21 was a fact for Paul, and thusly a fact for all of us.

Romans 7 is about "Paul before conversion", not after. We have been through this many time before but, for the sake of others, please note this from the end of Romans 7:

24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!
[Romans 7:24-25a, NASB]

The Paul in Romans 7 is clearly a "pre-conversion" Paul precisely because this text shows this to be the case: Paul looks back to what he was like and then declares that Jesus will indeed set him free.

You have Paul the Christian in the position of not being "set free from this body of death".

How you explain that?

 

[FreeGrace]

The word obey or the description of obedience is not mentioned in your "explanation", so therefore your explanation is invalid.

Doesn't need to be.

The obedience of faith is obeying God.

Specifically in believing His promise of eternal life through faith in His Son.

God speaks to a person which produces faith in them.

What verse says this?

The person responds with the corresponding action of obedience which produces a divine result.

What verse says this?

Here is an example from the scriptures.
7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Uh, it begins with "by faith". Faith that Noah ALREADY had, even before God warned of things not yet seen.

Try agan.

Hebrews 11:7
God told Noah to build the Ark because He was going to flood the earth with water.

Noah moved with godly fear and built the Ark and saved his family.

This 'example' doesn't even mention faith.

Try again.

This is an example of the obedience of faith.JLB

Try again.

 

[FreeGrace]

What do you mean by "no context"? My argument is really really simple. And it is this, in very short form:

1. Paul denies "justification by works" in verse 9.

2. He does not say "good works", so it is at least possible that he could be referring to the works of the Law of Moses. If you deny this, you are simply not debating fairly.

Here is what I mean by "no context": the word "works" in v.9 isn't preceded by ANY mention of "the works of the Law of Moses" in either ch 1 or 2. So, by no context, there is NO REASON to think that Paul wa referring to "the works of the Law of Moses" by his use of "works" in v.9. I've already explained this.

3. He then writes a lengthy "therefore" explanation, in verses 11 and following, which deals with the very thing you would expect someone to write if they had just denied justification by works of the Law of Moses - that now the Gentile, who could of course not do the works of the Law of Moses which was only given to Jews, is now "part of the family of God".

Actually, what follows says NOTHING about being justified by the works of the Law of Moses. From v.11-22 Paul teaches that Jews and Gentiles are united at the cross.

In fact, when he gets to v.15, he notes that Christ "abolished in His flesh the law with its commandments and regulations". So v.15 DIRECTLY REFUTES your idea about being justified by the works of the law of Moses.

In all candor, this is a slam-dunk.

It certainly is, but not for your argument.

Your response is arguably an evasion - making a vague claim about context and not dealing with the argument.

In fact, v.15 REFUTES your notion.

Let me try to smoke you out. Consider a scenario where it is well known that the rich members of a certain golf club (and their children) engage in a set of distinctive practices that effectively say to the world "I am member of this golf club and you are not". Things like wearing a jacket with the name of the golf club on it, wearing white shoes, eating special food, etc. etc. Now, of course, these people also do "good deeds" Then suppose I wrote this:

People do not get into Harvard by "works", therefore people who do not belong to the golf club can get into Harvard.

Clearly I am not talking about the "good works" that these golfers do, I am talking about the "works" that set these people apart as members of this club.
Agree?

No. I see no relation between Eph 2:8-22 and your smoking scenario.

Apparently you've either misread or haven't yet read Eph 2:15, so here it is: 5by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,

Now, what does "abolishing" mean?
What does "enmity" mean?

v.15 refutes your notion.

 

[FreeGrace]

Romans 7 is about "Paul before conversion", not after. We have been through this many time before but, for the sake of others, please note this from the end of Romans 7:

24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!
[Romans 7:24-25a, NASB]

The Paul in Romans 7 is clearly a "pre-conversion" Paul precisely because this text shows this to be the case: Paul looks back to what he was like and then declares that Jesus will indeed set him free.

You have Paul the Christian in the position of not being "set free from this body of death".

How you explain that?

Easy. First of all, ch 7 is all in the present tense. None of it is in the past tense, as is being supposed.
Second, "body of this death" is a reference to his physical body, which wa corrupted by Adam's sin and will face death. He states the fact and then gives thanks to God through Jesus Christ that his "body of death" will be resurrected, just as Jesus was.

 

[Drew]

Here is what I mean by "no context": the word "works" in v.9 isn't preceded by ANY mention of "the works of the Law of Moses" in either ch 1 or 2. So, by no context, there is NO REASON to think that Paul wa referring to "the works of the Law of Moses" by his use of "works" in v.9. I've already explained this.

That's like arguing that, in the following, the author is not talking racist attitudes in particular because there is no "context" before he used the term "attitude":

You all need to have the right king of attitude. Therefore, do not refuse to let blacks on the bus, and allow them to go the good schools. Do not treat whites better than blacks. Remember, we are all one human family and treating people differently based on race has no place in such a society.

I cannot imagine your response to the above: In this example, I have clearly shown that even in the absence of an established context, the term "attitude" must be a reference to racial attitudes in particular. And it would not matter in the slightest that, in any material leading up to this block of statement, there was no particular mention of the issue of race at all.

Based on what Paul writes in verses 11 and following, it is clear that his argument is that the Jew is not saved by doing the works of the Law of Moses.

 

[Drew]

Easy. First of all, ch 7 is all in the present tense. None of it is in the past tense, as is being supposed.
Second, "body of this death" is a reference to his physical body, which wa corrupted by Adam's sin and will face death. He states the fact and then gives thanks to God through Jesus Christ that his "body of death" will be resurrected, just as Jesus was.

There are many reasons to conclude that Romans 7 cannot be about Paul the believer. I will get to the "tense" issue later, but for now I will post more material from Romans 7:

but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! [Romans 7:23-24a]

As a Christian, how you be a prisoner to sin. I could wear out the keypad on my computer posting texts that show that the believer has been set free from such bondage. In fact, right here in that Ephesians text, we see that believers are not imprisoned in this way:

10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. [Ephesians 2:10, NASB]

Now: please explain how a person who is a "prisoner" to a law of sin can possibly do good works.

And also consider this from Romans 8:

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, [Romans 8:29a, NASB]

If Romans 7 is indeed about Paul the believer, then you need to explain to us how a man who is in the process of being conformed to the image of Jesus, is "a prisoner of the law of sin".

 

[Drew]

Easy. First of all, ch 7 is all in the present tense. None of it is in the past tense, as is being supposed.

Much of Romans 7 is indeed in the past tense:

8But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; [Romans 7:8-9, NASB]

But, as you say, some of it is in the present tense and I can understand why you would think that Paul is talking about himself as a believer. But if you do that, you are in the position of having to deal with the difficult questions from my last post. I have an explanation for the "present tense" stuff, but that will have to wait.