"I'm Christian, unless you're gay"

[felix]

I didn't say to exclude judgement, did I? But perhaps you ought not to get such great joy out of empahisizing it. Perhaps you could pay more attention to the Christian call to humility, and Christ's admonition that the one without sin should cast the first stone. Is that sinless one you?

Christ then turned to the adulterous woman and instructed her to go and sin no more. That judgement and instruction is Christ's perogative - as the the son of God and only sinless man - not your perogative.

You take the story out of context to prove an irrelevant point. The people around the adulterous are executing judgment by having stones on their hands. Gospel of Christ does not ask any Christian to execute judgement but proclaim the coming judgement of Christ and the wrath of the lamb. If you think I had to be sinless to warn a sinner about the coming judgement, you are terribly mistaken. Btw, if I have Christ in me, I am actually sinless before God for all my sins are washed by Christ.

 

[Christ_empowered]

Christianity, at its core, is daily self-renunciantion and submission to the will of Our Father. Jesus came to show us how to live and to save us from sin, satan, the world, and death. Homosexual practice is about daily self-indulgence in self. Growth of self-love, rejection of God and basic morality, etc. The two are fundamentally incompatible.

Speaking as a "post-gay" man, I can say that only God can heal the narcissism, AKA self-love, that is at the core of homosexual practice. God did that for me through some severe psychotic episodes, a stint in jail (He also gave me a clean criminal record, btw), and 1 year of Christian Rehab. At 27, I'm no longer narcissistic. I do still have homosexual "issues," but the intensity has waned. I don't see the point in rejecting God in order to live out an unfulfilling life as a sexual deviant. I'm also kinder, smarter, healthier, etc., all because God freed me from myself (self-love is still an issue for me, just much less of one).

Anyway, not to sound harsh or anything, but please realize that when you're talking to someone who has centered their life on deviant sexual desires and practices, you're talking to someone filled to the brim with destructive self-love. They're rejecting God and replacing Him with the worst of our inborn, sinful drives. Its Romans 1 in the modern age, I promise. Each and every time.

With that in mind, I think traditional Christians should realize while we should be kind, speak the truth in love, etc., the Truth--the Truth for which Christ was crucified and for which we are called to crucify ourselves daily--must not be altered, sugar-coated, ignored, or de-clawed, especially to appease sexually deviant, God-hating narcissists.

 

[Pard]

Agreed.

The true issue with the sugar-coated gospel is this:

It works for the short term. You sway them and they come and they convert and have a good old time riding that "high" of being newly under Christ. It wears off and one of two things typically happen:

1) they just get bored and walk away, not being satisfied with what they are getting and not understanding that what they really need is salvation. They don't understand this because they never hear it, truly.

2) they hear about the Truth and they become scared and run away.

The evangelicals don't have to deal with this. That is why there are many successful evangels out there with shows and books that all are about this sugar-coated gospel. They convert the heathen and then promptly move onto the next "conquest". The convert goes to the church and then they realize that is the truth and they often leave. The evangelicals don't see this because they are already onto another town, state, country, or continent. They only see the first few days and never the outcome.

And this is true. Polls show that most who come to Christ promptly leave within a year's time. Why? I think I know why! They never got the TRUTH about salvation, they got the "Me, me, me. Want, want, want" gospel. In reality it is much less glamorous and much more work! I'd rather tell the truth and walk away without a new Christian than to speak veiled truths and end up having that person leave a few months down the road, because the person who walks away from me when I speak the TRUTH has had that seed of Christ sown into his heart and one day it'll sprout, just as Empower's testimony shows!

 

[jasoncran]

man, such truth. i was desperate for an answer to my problems and wanted god to fix me. such a seeker friendly wouldnt have worked. it would have turned me from the gospel all together but i thank god i was led to godly men and women who told me the truth.

 

[Mike S]

A significant part of Christ's message during his ministry was that the religious leaders of the time were so determined to live by the letter of the law in the minutest detail, that they completely distorted the spirit of the law. The Pharisees obsessed about strict observance of the law to the point it became nothing more than an instrument of their power to control and condemn God's people.

Modern day Pharisees roam the halls of today's churches - strutting in their arrogance and pompously passing judgement - in very much the same way as was done two thousand years ago. They love calling up proof texts from the scriptures to show their command of the law and demonstrate their righteousness, apparently ignorant of who they've become.

In general, I don't like the use of proof texts - the spirit of God's will and Christ's message is often contained behind the words, in the totality of the Bible, not in individual scriptures - but for the Pharisees here so enamored of them, I'll call up two scriptures that speak to the spirit of God's will, rather than to detail with which to beat sinners into submission. They speak of compassion and humility, something Pharisees, then and now, know little about.

Micah 6:8 - He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Matthew 22: 36-40 - Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Love is not new in Christ's message, it's a part of the entire Bible. But Christ emphasized love and compassion and mercy in His ministry, making the point that all the law and prophets hung on that. Chris't love for sinful man extended to the sacrifice of His life on the cross. Modern Pharisees, it seems, can barely stand to be in the same room with sinners.

 

[Hitch]

A significant part of Christ's message during his ministry was that the religious leaders of the time were so determined to live by the letter of the law in the minutest detail, that they completely distorted the spirit of the law. The Pharisees obsessed about strict observance of the law to the point it became nothing more than an instrument of their power to control and condemn God's people.

Modern day Pharisees roam the halls of today's churches - strutting in their arrogance and pompously passing judgement - in very much the same way as was done two thousand years ago. They love calling up proof texts from the scriptures to show their command of the law and demonstrate their righteousness, apparently ignorant of who they've become.

In general, I don't like the use of proof texts - the spirit of God's will and Christ's message is often contained behind the words, in the totality of the Bible, not in individual scriptures - but for the Pharisees here so enamored of them, I'll call up two scriptures that speak to the spirit of God's will, rather than to detail with which to beat sinners into submission. They speak of compassion and humility, something Pharisees, then and now, know little about.

Micah 6:8 - He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Matthew 22: 36-40 - Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Love is not new in Christ's message, it's a part of the entire Bible. But Christ emphasized love and compassion and mercy making the point that all the law and prophets hung on that.

Are you equating sodomy with the minutiae of the Law?

 

[Pard]

Few points...

1) There is a difference between being a law whore and preaching the TRUTH.

2) Perhaps you've never seen it(?), but it is very possible to be Christ-like and still preach the truth without sugar coating. The nice guys don't all have to hand out candy and veiled truths. You're in my neck of the woods, I'll show ya!

3) How is it loving to tell someone a half truth? "Hey! Come to Christ, be rich!*"

*By the way that richness is in faith and spirit, not in money. And and life may very will be terrible for you. Oh and you can't live your life that way, but I am not gonna tell you that'll let the "mean heads" do that!

4) I fail to see how anything brought by the love of Christ, through the scripture is anything but compassionate! Telling someone the truth is compassion because you do not desire them to sin, but to LIVE in Christ!!!

5) May I stress once more than you are speaking based upon preconceived notions!

I've never once met someone who came to Christ through sugar-coated scripture and stuck around for any length of time.

 

[Pard]

I wanted to come back to my point. Now I know this isn't meant for this thread, so I made a new one just for this...

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=41846&p=632542#post632542

 

[Nick]

You're right. He did. And he didn't make friends with everyone. He had very harsh words for the self-righteous, sanctimonious, hypocritical religious leaders of the day. And he lost it on those moneychangers who were turning his dad's house into a den of theives. But I still haven't located that verse yet, where Jesus talks about homosexuals and calls them derogatory names such as.....



Hitch, it's true that there are a lot of LGBTs out there who will reject Jesus and continue to try to justify their sin, no matter what we say or do. But those individuals know who they are, and will answer to God at the end of the day. We will also answer to God for how WE conducted ourselves down here. Calling them "queers" is not just rude and uncouth, it's also very counterproductive. This kind of talk enables the gay community to reject Jesus, based solely on the words and actions of his "followers".

Not EVERY homosexual out there is completely closed off to Jesus. There are a few whose hearts are still open (even if just a crack), and we are NOT going to get our foot in the door by calling them "queers". I don't know about you, but I don't want to have to answer to God for a single soul that wasn't saved because I said or did something to put a stumbling block in front of that person. Hitch, because we don't know what's in each person's heart, we don't know which gay people will end up in hell, no matter what......and which gay people can still be saved. So we need to be nice to all of them, for the sake of the few.

So true, and there were some good points in the article.

Homosexuality is mentioned in a list of other sins. It's not held up by God as the ultimate sin and therefore we must hate everyone who practices it. It's one of many sins that keep us apart from God. Lying is another. Lusting after someone that is not your husband or wife is another. Hating a brother equals murder.

And yet many Christians continue this undending attack on those who engage in homosexuality with extreme prejiduce.

And we wonder why the gays are out to get us? They have not heard a single word of love from our lips - only hatred and how we despise them. How are they going to respond to the Gospel when people who call themselves Christians are the complete opposite of love?

This should be a wake-up call.

 

[jasoncran]

nick, a local and large church preached against homosexuality and they were hated for doing that by lgbt. they taught romans and leviticus and said merely jesus died for you and taught what god wanted for man and woman. hardly anything that i would call hate. they preached against violence.

i can post all the letters to the editors on this if go a diggin on this and if you all want i will. i know the pastor somewhat. he is a man of god and also would never preach violence.

 

[Josh]

They have not heard a single word of love from our lips - only hatred and how we despise them. How are they going to respond to the Gospel when people who call themselves Christians are the complete opposite of love?

Exactly! Beautifully articulated, Nick! This is what I wish more Christians would understand. We need to "speak the truth in love".....not just "speak the truth". Too many are forgetting the "love" part. Jesus didn't put a bullhorn in people's faces and angrily shout at them. He befriended them, hung out with them, ate dinner at their houses, turned water into wine at their weddings.....while the Pharisees looked down their noses at him and his sinner friends (while standing at a safe distance, so as not to be associated with any of them).

And I hope no one misunderstands me about the "speaking the truth" part. I do NOT advocate sugar-coating the gospel in any way. My point is that we cannot neglect the "in love" part. The two go together. All love and no truth will make for a gay person who sees you as a great friend, but never hears the truth.....and will end up in hell. All truth and no love will make for a gay person who sees you as an emeny, and won't take to heart, or even listen to, anything you have to say.....and will also end up in hell.

We need to love them first, so then they may actually listen to us when we start talking about sin and salvation.

 

[Mike S]

Exactly! Beautifully articulated, Nick! This is what I wish more Christians would understand. We need to "speak the truth in love".....not just "speak the truth". Too many are forgetting the "love" part. Jesus didn't put a bullhorn in people's faces and angrily shout at them. He befriended them, hung out with them, ate dinner at their houses, turned water into wine at their weddings.....while the Pharisees looked down their noses at him and his sinner friends (while standing at a safe distance, so as not to be associated with any of them).

And I hope no one misunderstands me about the "speaking the truth" part. I do NOT advocate sugar-coating the gospel in any way. My point is that we cannot neglect the "in love" part. The two go together. All love and no truth will make for a gay person who sees you as a great friend, but never hears the truth.....and will end up in hell. All truth and no love will make for a gay person who sees you as an emeny, and won't take to heart, or even listen to, anything you have to say.....and will also end up in hell.

We need to love them first, so then they may actually listen to us when we start talking about sin and salvation.

Love is precisely the point of Christ's message. Far too many "Christians" think of love as abandoning moral standards. They love the judgement part of Christianity, love pushing a man's face in the filth of his sin, but can't quite grasp the role of love. They can't quite grasp that the mthod of preaching the Gospel often determine whether it's listened to or not.

My religious belief is that "homosexuality is inconsistant with Christian teaching" but that I don't need to browbeat gays with that message endlessly. I guess that's too much sugar-coating, and to be a "true" Christian I need to bring back the "auto da fe."

 

[Comprehender]

Love is precisely the point of Christ's message. Far too many "Christians" think of love as abandoning moral standards. They love the judgement part of Christianity, love pushing a man's face in the filth of his sin, but can't quite grasp the role of love.

I agree.
As a parent, it is very clear to me that love does not have to be one extreme or the other...
Sometimes, I have to be strict with my kids & say, "NO!" & correct misbehavior.
Other times, I have to hug them & say "You are so special to me!"
Love is dynamic & unique to each circumstance.
IMO, love is hoping & striving for what is best through trial & error (active faith).

God IS LOVE. -1John 4:8
God is like the tough-love parent or laize faire parent... doesn't beat the love into us, nor does he rescue us... but trusts us enough to let us "live & learn."
We are not punished for our sins.
We are punished BY our sins... by the natural consequences.

You sleep around... & you get STDs & AIDS.
You try to make something fit that was never anatomically meant to, & you get anal fissures, bacterial infections, anal cancer &/or colon rupture.

If you cruely condemn someone for acting out their pain, then you contribute to more pain.
Since we are born with brains only 25% developed (which is why we're on the outside of cages at the zoo)... we are more influenced by environment than inheritance. So, while it is important to be compassionate with those with homosexual preferences, it is also important to be as truthful as possible, regarding what is healthy & what isn't. So, behavior must be questioned (never just blindly accepted) - but people must always be loved.

 

[reba]

Here is the classic line ... I have homosexual friends both male and female....
These folks are treated with heart felt love and Coconut cream pie, when ever i am in their part of the state. This thread has brought them to mind again an email is in order.... "Bob" & "Tom" know my views we have had discussions on scriptures the plan of salvation laid out... These partners 1 so very liberal the other ultra conservative.


There is a huge difference between the political movement and the persons.

And we wonder why the gays are out to get us? They have not heard a single word of love from our lips - only hatred and how we despise them. How are they going to respond to the Gospel when people who call themselves Christians are the complete opposite of love?

Are you sure Nick? You are Christian have you shown love or hate to a homosexual? how about Mark or Josh? Are the folks in your church hateful? Acceptance of sinful behavior is not love.... thief liar hooker murders etc these behaviours are not to be accepted.

 

[Mike S]

I agree.
As a parent, it is very clear to me that love does not have to be one extreme or the other...
Sometimes, I have to be strict with my kids & say, "NO!" & correct misbehavior.
Other times, I have to hug them & say "You are so special to me!"
Love is dynamic & unique to each circumstance.
IMO, love is hoping & striving for what is best through trial & error (active faith).

God IS LOVE. -1John 4:8
God is like the tough-love parent or laize faire parent... doesn't beat the love into us, nor does he rescue us... but trusts us enough to let us "live & learn."
We are not punished for our sins.
We are punished BY our sins... by the natural consequences.

You sleep around... & you get STDs & AIDS.
You try to make something fit that was never anatomically meant to, & you get anal fissures, bacterial infections, anal cancer &/or colon rupture.

If you cruely condemn someone for acting out their pain, then you contribute to more pain.
Since we are born with brains only 25% developed (which is why we're on the outside of cages at the zoo)... we are more influenced by environment than inheritance. So, while it is important to be compassionate with those with homosexual preferences, it is also important to be as truthful as possible, regarding what is healthy & what isn't. So, behavior must be questioned (never just blindly accepted) - but people must always be loved.

I firmly believe this to be true. In fact, I see this in the scriptures that tell us the iniquities of the father are visited on the sons for generations. That's not the only possible interpretaion of those scriptures, but I do see the truth in them that the consequences of sinful behavior are almost never restricted to just the individual. If a husband commits adultry, it hurts the marriage, and the wife in particular. If he contracts an STD in the process and passed it on to his wife, he hurts both himself and his wife. If the disease then infects future children, everyone involved is hurt, the consequences extending well into future generations.

Sin is insidious in it's consequences, reaching far beyond the individual. God does not have to intervene in supernatural ways (if supernatural even has any meaning for the creater existing outside time and space, who's created the natural processes themselves) for consequences of sin to work their way through our communities.

 

[Mike S]

Here is the classic line ... I have homosexual friends both male and female....
These folks are treated with heart felt love and Coconut cream pie, when ever i am in their part of the state. This thread has brought them to mind again an email is in order.... "Bob" & "Tom" know my views we have had discussions on scriptures the plan of salvation laid out... These partners 1 so very liberal the other ultra conservative.


There is a huge difference between the political movement and the persons.



Are you sure Nick? You are Christian have you shown love or hate to a homosexual? how about Mark or Josh? Are the folks in your church hateful? Acceptance of sinful behavior is not love.... thief liar hooker murders etc these behaviours are not to be accepted.

Are you sure you've been reading my comments? I've never said I accept homosexual behavior as moral. I just don't endlessly hector gays - who know my religious beliefs - for the way they live.

How about you? How many of the people sitting next to you in church or living in your neighborhood, with whom you carry on normal relationships, live perfect sin free lives? We all sin and fall short of how God wants us to live. Is your sin any less hurtful to God than the sin of homosexuality?

 

[Hitch]

Really Nick you've failed.

How can you call yourself a Christian when you have done nothing at all to make the beastiality crowd feel welcome?

Maybe they should have there own forum here?

 

[Hitch]

Are you sure you've been reading my comments? I've never said I accept homosexual behavior.

How about you? How many of the people sitting next to you in church or living in your neighborhood, with whom you carry on normal relationships, live perfect sin free lives? We all sin and fall short of how God wants us to live. Is your sin any less hurtful to God than the sin of homosexuality?

Sodomy is in special class like it or not.

But on a personal note ,you complain in practically every post of judgmentalism on the part of 'some christians' , and on this thread ,so far, when it comes to judgmentalism you;re the king.

 

[Mike S]

Sodomy is in special class like it or not.

But on a personal note ,you complain in practically every post of judgmentalism on the part of 'some christians' , and on this thread ,so far, when it comes to judgmentalism you;re the king.

No, it isn't. It isn't any more sin than whatever sin yours is. So get used to it, you're a flawed, sinful creature, as we all are.

 

[Hitch]

No, it isn't. It isn't any more sin than whatever sin yours is. So get used to it, you're a flawed, sinful creature, as we all are.

Ok get your bible out and prove it.