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Immaculate Conception

jasonc said:
Nope because that means today and the first audience wouldn't need to repent .all in that context with no their is none righteous ,no not one.

Jesus also said call no man good ,but the Father above .
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Why would anyone from the time of Adam to present day not need to repent if they have walked away from God. We were created to be holy and without excuse, but many have rejected God and His Son Christ Jesus going after the lust of the flesh. I'm not understanding what you said.
 
for_his_glory said:
Why would anyone from the time of Adam to present day not need to repent if they have walked away from God. We were created to be holy and without excuse, but many have rejected God and His Son Christ Jesus going after the lust of the flesh. I'm not understanding what you said.
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Is not a man born automatically knowing Jesus.meaming that if you took a person and raised them without any person around they would act so pure that they just know God ?
You are arguing now that man if we tell them that the gospel for them and they are rejecting him ,they are damned ,if not they are free from sin.

No one is without excuse .and all man are not made perfect but marred by the sin nature and by default enemies of God .
 
for_his_glory said:
She must have been sinless before God that He found favor in her.
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This is what I was talking about with regard to David. God found favor in him and yet he was not sinless. You say Mary was sinless as evident by God finding favor in her and yet God found favor in others, such as Noah and Job, that were not sinless. I'm trying to understand how you are applying the double standard. I believe Mary had great faith in God but faith does not equate to sinlessness, does it?
 
for_his_glory said:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

This is just a thought about these two verses. Could it mean that only those from the time of Adam that walked away from God have all sinned against God?
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If you read all of chapter 3 you can recognize that Paul was speaking of all man and not just the Jews. In chapter 5, since all man, Jews and non-Jews alike, have descended from Adam doesn't the verse you present infer all mankind?
 
for_his_glory said:
She must have been sinless before God that He found favor in her. Wouldn't you think as God would bless her she would have had a pure heart for God, maybe no doubt from the day she was born.

Here is another thought. Mary would be from the seed of Abraham possibly having faith in God all her life as she was only around 12 or 14 when she married Joseph according to that era when young girls would marry.

Just my thoughts
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Spiritually, God may have seen Mary as sinless because of Jesus Christ, Colossians 2:10.

Physically, Mary was a sinner born after Adam, Romans 5:12.
 
It has been correctly noted that our Savior well anticipated this future worship of sinful human flesh & in seeing that He
purposely never referred to her in the more reverent form used today "Mary" or "mother" .
Why would the Lord of Glory when speaking to the one sinless person ever to live refer to her in such dismissive disregard as "Woman" ?
With all the many opportunities He spoke to her ?
Is this the way you believe the Son of God would commonly characterize a person of higher spiritual stature than even Moses, David,etc,etc,etc, ?

Jhn 2:4
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
 
Consecrated Life said:
It has been correctly noted that our Savior well anticipated this future worship of sinful human flesh & in seeing that He
purposely never referred to her in the more reverent form used today "Mary" or "mother" .
Why would the Lord of Glory when speaking to the one sinless person ever to live refer to her in such dismissive disregard as "Woman" ?
With all the many opportunities He spoke to her ?
Is this the way you believe the Son of God would commonly characterize a person of higher spiritual stature than even Moses, David,etc,etc,etc, ?

Jhn 2:4
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
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The "Woman" is the same woman that made a deal with the Devil in the garden.
 
Robert Pate said:
Spiritually, God may have seen Mary as sinless because of Jesus Christ, Colossians 2:10.

Physically, Mary was a sinner born after Adam, Romans 5:12.
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???

Colossians 2:10 and in Him you have been filled, who is the head over all rule and authority
 
WIP said:
This is what I was talking about with regard to David. God found favor in him and yet he was not sinless. You say Mary was sinless as evident by God finding favor in her and yet God found favor in others, such as Noah and Job, that were not sinless. I'm trying to understand how you are applying the double standard. I believe Mary had great faith in God but faith does not equate to sinlessness, does it?
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The point is, is that we do not know if Mary ever sinned against God as it can only be speculation. Another point is that she must have been found righteous (sinless) before God to have chosen her to birth the Christ child.

I'm not saying I am right, but only giving my opinion.
 
Robert Pate said:
Spiritually, God may have seen Mary as sinless because of Jesus Christ, Colossians 2:10.

Physically, Mary was a sinner born after Adam, Romans 5:12.
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I'm not trying to be hard headed about this, but IMO the word "all" could very well mean all that have walked away from God from the time of Adam and after Noah's flood beginning a new generation of people.

Luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Was Mary a sinner, or was she a child of faith in God from the first time she would of understood what faith meant in God taught to her by her father as this would be before the angel Gabriel came unto her. Many have said Mary was probably between the age of 12 - 17 according to that era when young girls married as early as 12.

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Physical death does now reign for all of us from the time of Adams fall, but now in Christ we have Spiritual life in Christ where we will never Spiritually die.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
 
I am not certain how one can for a doctrine that she was sinless, when there is absolutely not Biblical evidence that she was sinless.

It blows my mind.

Grace and peace to you.
 
electedbyhim said:
I am not certain how one can for a doctrine that she was sinless, when there is absolutely not Biblical evidence that she was sinless.

It blows my mind.

Grace and peace to you.
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That's my point. How do we know if she was or not and what does it have to do with salvation through Christ as she, like many, was a chosen vessel God used for His purpose.
 
for_his_glory said:
That's my point. How do we know if she was or not and what does it have to do with salvation through Christ as she, like many, was a chosen vessel God used for His purpose.
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I understand where you are coming from. It is hard to take in for me.

I remember as kid being taught she was sinless and I was also taught only Christ was sinless.

Since the Lord saved me and studying scripture I see no evidence for her being sinless.

Grace and peace to you.
 
electedbyhim said:
Someone help me understand how Mary was sinless.

Please share Scripture only.

Grace and peace to you.
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Hi electedbyhim

Who said she was? As far as I'm aware, Mary was a, what we might call 'peasant' young woman who was betrothed (promised) to a man named Joseph. Whether she actually practiced any sinful behavior can be argued, but she was born with the same sin nature that condemns all of us as having fallen short of the glory of God. The only immaculate conception that I'm aware of that the Scriptures make any references to, the birth of God's Son Jesus. Why is that? Well, who would you call to step in and birth the Son of the living God.

As for Mary, she is certainly blessed and highly favored to have been chosen as the bearer of that Son as he grew to a child.

God bless,
Ted
 
electedbyhim said:
I understand where you are coming from. It is hard to take in for me.

I remember as kid being taught she was sinless and I was also taught only Christ was sinless.

Since the Lord saved me and studying scripture I see no evidence for her being sinless.

Grace and peace to you.
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What I know from catholic doctrine is that she was not born sinless as Jesus was. It's different.

Jesus had to be conceived sinless,,,,He's God.
God can neither have sin, or the sinful nature we're all born with.
So for Jesus it was a natural occurrence.

With Mary, instead, it's God that determined she would be immaculate.

Even catholic theologians are not sure when God stepped in,,,before conception, at conception, after conception.


However, it does make sense that the woman having God in her body, should be different from other women and should, at the least, not bear the sinful nature in her soul.

This is also for miamited re his last post.
 
wondering,

wondering said:
With Mary, instead, it's God that determined she would be immaculate.
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Come on man! The word God uses to describe Mary is merely 'blessed and highly favored'. She was just a Jewish woman, much like Abraham and Daniel and Ezekiel and so many, many other people that God used to bring about His promise. Mary was one of them. Certainly she is portrayed as a godly, believing woman who apparently honored God's law, as she claimed never having broken the law in any kind of sexual relation. Just as we find in any descriptions of the other people who served God in His work to bring about His promise, they are usually told to us as having been people who honored and worshipped and obeyed God, somewhat better than the general public.

All this stuff about Mary being somehow related to or particularly righteous and free of sin, is all just made up by those who have found some measure of comfort in their faith to be able to say to us, "I've talked with the mother of God."

As far as I can find in the Scriptures, God determined Mary to be a worthy created person to carry out her part of His great plan of salvation. Just as God found Noah and Abram and Jeremiah and Elisha and David to be the human participants to tell the stories of how God worked in and through their lives. Daniel is not 'immaculate'!

Yes, Jesus had to be born without the natural sin nature that God's word says that all of us share with Adam. But that sin nature passes through the male. It may be why men have a 'Y' chromosome, although that is purely speculative on my part But I firmly believe that the 'natural sin nature' that the Scriptures tells us is passed down through the ages, is passed through the male line. I support that with the fact that Jesus said that it came down from Adam, and never even mentions Eve's part in it.

However, in order to really make any real and known to be true claim of the matter, we would need to know 'how' God impregnated Eve. Did the Holy Spirit place an already fertilized ovum in Mary's womb or did the Holy Spirit somehow fertilize one of Mary's eggs? If the Holy Spirit implanted an already fertilized egg that originated from God in Mary's womb, then the argument of her having any human sin nature to pass to the baby is mute. That means that if we somehow, today, found a drop of Jesus' blood and did a DNA test, we'd be scratching our heads as to his parentage.

God bless,
Ted
 
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