Impossible Question for Oneness

[Klee shay]

Oneness theology teaches that Jesus reveals himself in 3 different modes - Father, Son and Spirit.

I am curious as to why many Oneness seem to have arguments against trinitarianism but don't seem to have any to defend Oneness, thus far anyway.

By your definition Oneness theology teaches that Jesus reveals himself in 3 different modes - Father, Son and Spirit. So how is this different to what Trinity theology teaches?

Hi Klee,

I remember discussing Oneness with those who have comes here in the past with this belief. They believe Jesus IS God, that's for sure. They believe the Godhead is one Person only and that God's name in the NT is Jesus. They also believe that Jesus could be in Heaven and on Earth at the same time. I have a problem with this. It makes Jesus out to be schizophrenic. For instance;

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Here the Spirit of God is in the form of a Dove, not Jesus. The voice from Heaven is The Father Himself. They would have you believe Jesus was talking to Himself.

Similar problem here:

Mat 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

What Free has described above is called Modalism. This is the theory that God masifests (or reveales) Himself in thre distinctive modes. Again, the verses I quoted present a problem for Modalism because their thoery dictates that the three modes cannot exist simultaneously.

Hopes this helps.

Hi Vic

I understand the concept you are explaining and thanks for taking the time to expand for my learning.

It may frustrate you to know however - as I'm sure it would others as well :wink: ; that I still see a similarity between Oneness and Trinity. This is just my personal opinion though so I don't want to portray it as an infalible truth.

Here the Spirit of God is in the form of a Dove, not Jesus. The voice from Heaven is The Father Himself. They would have you believe Jesus was talking to Himself.

This comment stood out to me the most however, for it's my understanding that the doctrine of Trinity teaches a similar form of schizophrenia. That God was talking to God - being that Jesus is God and not just the Son of God. Is this a mistaken understanding on my part? If so, please show me in what way my understanding is lacking. Thanks. :D

 

[Vic C.]

Here the Spirit of God is in the form of a Dove, not Jesus. The voice from Heaven is The Father Himself. They would have you believe Jesus was talking to Himself.

This comment stood out to me the most however, for it's my understanding that the doctrine of Trinity teaches a similar form of schizophrenia. That God was talking to God - being that Jesus is God and not just the Son of God. Is this a mistaken understanding on my part? If so, please show me in what way my understanding is lacking. Thanks. :D

If only I could explain this in a completely convincing way, we wouldn't be having this debate. 8-) I believe it on Faith, not just by sight. I have been convicted by the Spirit to understand Genesis 1:26 and Deuteronomy 6:4 in a certain way; a way that harmonizes with NT Scripture concerning a Triune God.

I see schizophrenia as being one person consisting of multiple personalities, with only one personality capable of 'being' and speaking at a time. I see the Godhead as one Being capable of revealing Oneself as three simultainiusly, or concurrently, as in Matthew 3:16-17. I don't see this in any other belief, be it Oneness or Modalism.

So you know, I do believe in a Triune God; I just don't "see" it as a three person Godhead. I don't see a spirit as a person in it's most literal sense. I have much in common with the Binitarians as I do with the Trinitarians.

What is Paramount to me is that I accept the belief that Jesus is Deity; that God was indeed incarnate in the flesh of a Human body, which we call Christ.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

[mutzrein]

Thankyou for that explanation of what you believe Vic.

May I ask, what part of all of this you see as a necessity for salvation. For example, many Trinitarians say it is necessary to have a right understanding of the trinity and to believe that Jesus is God in order to be saved. What say you?

Please note, I'm not asking you to pass judgment on others, just to see whether you believe a 'correct' doctrinal stand (whatever you deem that to be) is necessary for salvation.

Thanks

 

[Solo]

Thankyou for that explanation of what you believe Vic.

May I ask, what part of all of this you see as a necessity for salvation. For example, many Trinitarians say it is necessary to have a right understanding of the trinity and to believe that Jesus is God in order to be saved. What say you?

Please note, I'm not asking you to pass judgment on others, just to see whether you believe a 'correct' doctrinal stand (whatever you deem that to be) is necessary for salvation.

Thanks

If I may clarify my stand in case you are mistaken. I believe that a person can become saved prior to believing that God is one in three persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. After one is born again, born from above, born of God, he/she will come to know God in his entirety as the scriptures indicate. If one denies the diety of Jesus Christ, then their salvation is questionable.

 

[Vic C.]

... If I may clarify my stand in case you are mistaken. I believe that a person can become saved prior to believing that God is one in three persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. After one is born again, born from above, born of God, he/she will come to know God in his entirety as the scriptures indicate. If one denies the diety of Jesus Christ, then their salvation is questionable.

I don't think I could possibly say it better that Solo just did. I think of Matthew 12:31-32 and how it might apply itself in this case.

Thanks Michael.

 

[Solo]

... If I may clarify my stand in case you are mistaken. I believe that a person can become saved prior to believing that God is one in three persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. After one is born again, born from above, born of God, he/she will come to know God in his entirety as the scriptures indicate. If one denies the diety of Jesus Christ, then their salvation is questionable.

I don't think I could possibly say it better that Solo just did. I think of Matthew 12:31-32 and how it might apply itself in this case.

Thanks Michael.

Da Nada, Amigo! Gracias! :D

 

[Klee shay]

Thanks for your input Vic and also Solo for answering mutzrein's question. :D While I hold fast to what I understand in my faith, I am not entirely against learning from other Christian perspectives. I appreciate Solo that you didn't use the doctrine of Trinity to deny one from being saved. I also agree that if we deny Jesus is the Son of God, it will bring our salvation into question.

So I guess this is where Oneness falls down for me. Jesus is the Son of God not God. Haven't I said that in regards to something else though? :

 

[mutzrein]

... If I may clarify my stand in case you are mistaken. I believe that a person can become saved prior to believing that God is one in three persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. After one is born again, born from above, born of God, he/she will come to know God in his entirety as the scriptures indicate. If one denies the diety of Jesus Christ, then their salvation is questionable.

I don't think I could possibly say it better that Solo just did. I think of Matthew 12:31-32 and how it might apply itself in this case.

Thanks Michael.

Da Nada, Amigo! Gracias! :D

Wow - So, Solo, it seems like you have changed from your previous stand of OSAS. Either that or a person is not 'really' saved to start with by your estimation?

 

[Solo]

... If I may clarify my stand in case you are mistaken. I believe that a person can become saved prior to believing that God is one in three persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. After one is born again, born from above, born of God, he/she will come to know God in his entirety as the scriptures indicate. If one denies the diety of Jesus Christ, then their salvation is questionable.

I don't think I could possibly say it better that Solo just did. I think of Matthew 12:31-32 and how it might apply itself in this case.

Thanks Michael.

Da Nada, Amigo! Gracias! :D

Wow - So, Solo, it seems like you have changed from your previous stand of OSAS. Either that or a person is not 'really' saved to start with by your estimation?

I haven't changed my belief. I believe that once a person is born of God, he/she is sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption (Jesus Return). Once that person is born again, born of God, he/she will come to know God in His entirety. The diety of Jesus will be revealed to such a one by the indwelling Spirit.

 

[mutzrein]

And Vic - are you saying that by my denial that Jesus is God, I am committing blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

And if you are, do you believe that this is unforgiveable sin?

And again, if so, are you not saying that one such as I has no hope of salvation?

I certainly would like to know where this doctrine leaves me (in your eyes).

Thanks

 

[mutzrein]

... If I may clarify my stand in case you are mistaken. I believe that a person can become saved prior to believing that God is one in three persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. After one is born again, born from above, born of God, he/she will come to know God in his entirety as the scriptures indicate. If one denies the diety of Jesus Christ, then their salvation is questionable.

I don't think I could possibly say it better that Solo just did. I think of Matthew 12:31-32 and how it might apply itself in this case.

Thanks Michael.

Da Nada, Amigo! Gracias! :D

Wow - So, Solo, it seems like you have changed from your previous stand of OSAS. Either that or a person is not 'really' saved to start with by your estimation?

I haven't changed my belief. I believe that once a person is born of God, he/she is sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption (Jesus Return). Once that person is born again, born of God, he/she will come to know God in His entirety. The diety of Jesus will be revealed to such a one by the indwelling Spirit.

Ah, I see. So if one claims to be born again but does not agree with the Trinity, you are NOT saying that such a person's salvation is questionable. You are saying that they have NEVER been born again?

 

[jgredline]

mutzrein wrote
Ah, I see. So if one claims to be born again but does not agree with the Trinity, you are NOT saying that such a person's salvation is questionable. You are saying that they have NEVER been born again?

The real sin here is saying that Jesus was a created being when the scriptures clearly teach that Jesus is and always has been and always will be GOD.
If in your mind you believed Jesus is God, would the trinity make more sense?
Probably not. It is a mystery, but if you were born again, you would believe it by faith. Mutzrein. I am not directing this at you specifically, but to all who believe Jesus is a created being or a created god.

 

[Solo]

[quote="Solo":d4328]... If I may clarify my stand in case you are mistaken. I believe that a person can become saved prior to believing that God is one in three persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. After one is born again, born from above, born of God, he/she will come to know God in his entirety as the scriptures indicate. If one denies the diety of Jesus Christ, then their salvation is questionable.

I don't think I could possibly say it better that Solo just did. I think of Matthew 12:31-32 and how it might apply itself in this case.

Thanks Michael.

Da Nada, Amigo! Gracias! :D

Wow - So, Solo, it seems like you have changed from your previous stand of OSAS. Either that or a person is not 'really' saved to start with by your estimation?

I haven't changed my belief. I believe that once a person is born of God, he/she is sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption (Jesus Return). Once that person is born again, born of God, he/she will come to know God in His entirety. The deity of Jesus will be revealed to such a one by the indwelling Spirit.

Ah, I see. So if one claims to be born again but does not agree with the Trinity, you are NOT saying that such a person's salvation is questionable. You are saying that they have NEVER been born again?[/quote:d4328]

If one does not believe in the deity of Jesus Christ, that Jesus is God, then they are either not saved, born again, or they have not reached the point of learning the truth about Jesus being God Almighty.

As an example, I witnessed to a friend of mine one evening and asked them their beliefs. This friend did not believe that Jesus was God, only that He was the Son of God; She did not believe that their was such an entity as satan, only the absence of good. She prayed to confess her being a sinner, recognizing Jesus as her resurrected Savior, and her dire need of his payment for her sins. After she and my family went to an outdoor cookout with some Christian friends, she went home. Early the next morning at 2:00 AM she called, and exclaimed that Jesus was God. She said that she arrived at home, and a book that she had had for quite a while had caught her attention, and she picked it up and began reading it, and she then recognized that Jesus is God. Was she saved prior to recognizing that Jesus is God? Yes. Did it take the indwelling Spirit much time to teach her that Jesus is God? No.
.

 

[jgredline]

Solo
Great post. I see we were thinking along the same lines as the Holy Spirit directed us. Praise Jesus who is God ALL MIGHTY !

 

[Klee shay]

Solo
Great post. I see we were thinking along the same lines as the Holy Spirit directed us. Praise Jesus who is God ALL MIGHTY !

Sounding a bit like Oneness there. Praise God who is in Jesus Christ perhaps? Is that a more Trinitarian thing to say? :wink:

 

[mutzrein]

mutzrein wrote
Ah, I see. So if one claims to be born again but does not agree with the Trinity, you are NOT saying that such a person's salvation is questionable. You are saying that they have NEVER been born again?

The real sin here is saying that Jesus was a created being when the scriptures clearly teach that Jesus is and always has been and always will be GOD.
If in your mind you believed Jesus is God, would the trinity make more sense?
Probably not. It is a mystery, but if you were born again, you would believe it by faith. Mutzrein. I am not directing this at you specifically, but to all who believe Jesus is a created being or a created god.

Well I'm pleased it's not directed at me 'specifically' because if you had I would have asked you, "when did I ever say Jesus was a created being or a created god?" So then, . . . what is my sin?

 

[mutzrein]

Solo - you are shifting from foot to foot - and your doctrine is just as shaky. Stand still man. It seems like you want to say that one cannot be born again without believing in the trinity or at least that if a person is born again, then it is a foregone conclusion that they will believe in the trinity. But you are not. If you allow that a person can be born again but they have not 'reached the point of learning the truth about Jesus being almighty God' then you have to allow that it is possible to be born again and then to lose their 'salvation'.

Do you, or do you not accept this?

And as far as your 'example' goes, it means nothing. I don't accept personal experience as the measure of the validity of any doctrine.

 

[Solo]

Solo - you are shifting from foot to foot - and your doctrine is just as shaky. Stand still man. It seems like you want to say that one cannot be born again without believing in the trinity or at least that if a person is born again, then it is a foregone conclusion that they will believe in the trinity. But you are not. If you allow that a person can be born again but they have not 'reached the point of learning the truth about Jesus being almighty God' then you have to allow that it is possible to be born again and then to lose their 'salvation'.

Do you, or do you not accept this?

And as far as your 'example' goes, it means nothing. I don't accept personal experience as the measure of the validity of any doctrine.

Muz,
I stand on rock solid ground. I waver not even slightly. Your understanding and misconceptions have your perspective screwed up. Once a person is born again, he/she cannot be unborn again, and will enter the Kingdom of God. The flesh of one may be destroyed by satan on this earth, but a born again believer will be saved on the Day of Jesus Christ. It is also a very easy discovery to make in discerning whether one has the Holy Spirit indwelling them; it is by their response to the truths contained in the Word of God. Most who claim to be born again, and are not, refuse to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ. That is why there will be many that hear Jesus tell them that He NEVER knew them.
You may want to pay attention to some of your experiences. Life is full of them, and doctrines surround our decision making on a continual basis.

 

[mutzrein]

Solo - you are shifting from foot to foot - and your doctrine is just as shaky. Stand still man. It seems like you want to say that one cannot be born again without believing in the trinity or at least that if a person is born again, then it is a foregone conclusion that they will believe in the trinity. But you are not. If you allow that a person can be born again but they have not 'reached the point of learning the truth about Jesus being almighty God' then you have to allow that it is possible to be born again and then to lose their 'salvation'.

Do you, or do you not accept this?

And as far as your 'example' goes, it means nothing. I don't accept personal experience as the measure of the validity of any doctrine.

Muz,
I stand on rock solid ground. I waver not even slightly. Your understanding and misconceptions have your perspective screwed up. Once a person is born again, he/she cannot be unborn again, and will enter the Kingdom of God. The flesh of one may be destroyed by satan on this earth, but a born again believer will be saved on the Day of Jesus Christ. It is also a very easy discovery to make in discerning whether one has the Holy Spirit indwelling them; it is by their response to the truths contained in the Word of God. Most who claim to be born again, and are not, refuse to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ. That is why there will be many that hear Jesus tell them that He NEVER knew them.
You may want to pay attention to some of your experiences. Life is full of them, and doctrines surround our decision making on a continual basis.

Solo

In your last post to me you said:

Once a person is born again, he/she cannot be unborn again, and will enter the Kingdom of God.

And in another post you said:

If one does not believe in the deity of Jesus Christ, that Jesus is God, then they are either not saved, born again, or they have not reached the point of learning the truth about Jesus being God Almighty.

Now on the one hand you say that a person who is born again, cannot lose their salvation.

But you also say that accepting that Jesus is God is a requirement for salvation.

Now how is then that a person can be born again, and not be able to lose it (according to you in one post), and then in another post they can be born again but have ‘not reached the point of learning the truth about Jesus being God Almighty.’
Surely you can see the anomaly here. If they are born again they will inherit the kingdom of God. Surely they have fulfilled the criteria for entering the kingdom of God by being born again. They cannot lose it so why do you say they have to believe that Jesus is God also.

But for you - and anyone else for that matter - to state that salvation is denied on the basis of non-belief that Jesus is God, undermines the very foundation of the gospel. And that is that righteousness is imputed to us by faith (which is a gift from God) in Christ.

I am born again, not by my own works, or adherence to a peculiar doctrine. In fact I am born of God totally outside of the realm of human decision because salvation is of God. And it is in becoming God’s son, having been given the gift of faith to know Him who has redeemed me, that I am made righteous.

Now you can wallow around in your own self righteous proclaiming that no-one can enter the kingdom of God unless they believe as you. But the fact is, whether you like it or not, people for 2000 years have been becoming sons and daughters of the living God and have been falling asleep in Christ to be resurrected on the glorious day of His return WITHOUT this abhorrent obstacle.

And I say, as far as your ‘easy discovery’ for discerning whether the Spirit of God dwells within man or not, you wouldn’t even know which way the wind was blowing.

And I would also say that it is not only my experiences in this life that have shown me this but revelation of the Spirit of God – confirmed by what is written on my heart by the Word of God (which is Christ) and underlined by scripture.

Take care Solo that in your zeal for correcting (which should only be toward a brother or sister in Christ) that you do not shut the door on others who would enter the Kingdom of heaven.

 

[Solo]

Solo - you are shifting from foot to foot - and your doctrine is just as shaky. Stand still man. It seems like you want to say that one cannot be born again without believing in the trinity or at least that if a person is born again, then it is a foregone conclusion that they will believe in the trinity. But you are not. If you allow that a person can be born again but they have not 'reached the point of learning the truth about Jesus being almighty God' then you have to allow that it is possible to be born again and then to lose their 'salvation'.

Do you, or do you not accept this?

And as far as your 'example' goes, it means nothing. I don't accept personal experience as the measure of the validity of any doctrine.

Muz,
I stand on rock solid ground. I waver not even slightly. Your understanding and misconceptions have your perspective screwed up. Once a person is born again, he/she cannot be unborn again, and will enter the Kingdom of God. The flesh of one may be destroyed by satan on this earth, but a born again believer will be saved on the Day of Jesus Christ. It is also a very easy discovery to make in discerning whether one has the Holy Spirit indwelling them; it is by their response to the truths contained in the Word of God. Most who claim to be born again, and are not, refuse to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ. That is why there will be many that hear Jesus tell them that He NEVER knew them.
You may want to pay attention to some of your experiences. Life is full of them, and doctrines surround our decision making on a continual basis.

Solo

In your last post to me you said:

Once a person is born again, he/she cannot be unborn again, and will enter the Kingdom of God.

And in another post you said:

[quote:6c8ee]If one does not believe in the deity of Jesus Christ, that Jesus is God, then they are either not saved, born again, or they have not reached the point of learning the truth about Jesus being God Almighty.

Now on the one hand you say that a person who is born again, cannot lose their salvation.

But you also say that accepting that Jesus is God is a requirement for salvation.

Now how is then that a person can be born again, and not be able to lose it (according to you in one post), and then in another post they can be born again but have ‘not reached the point of learning the truth about Jesus being God Almighty.’
Surely you can see the anomaly here. If they are born again they will inherit the kingdom of God. Surely they have fulfilled the criteria for entering the kingdom of God by being born again. They cannot lose it so why do you say they have to believe that Jesus is God also.

But for you - and anyone else for that matter - to state that salvation is denied on the basis of non-belief that Jesus is God, undermines the very foundation of the gospel. And that is that righteousness is imputed to us by faith (which is a gift from God) in Christ.

I am born again, not by my own works, or adherence to a peculiar doctrine. In fact I am born of God totally outside of the realm of human decision because salvation is of God. And it is in becoming God’s son, having been given the gift of faith to know Him who has redeemed me, that I am made righteous.

Now you can wallow around in your own self righteous proclaiming that no-one can enter the kingdom of God unless they believe as you. But the fact is, whether you like it or not, people for 2000 years have been becoming sons and daughters of the living God and have been falling asleep in Christ to be resurrected on the glorious day of His return WITHOUT this abhorrent obstacle.

And I say, as far as your ‘easy discovery’ for discerning whether the Spirit of God dwells within man or not, you wouldn’t even know which way the wind was blowing.

And I would also say that it is not only my experiences in this life that have shown me this but revelation of the Spirit of God – confirmed by what is written on my heart by the Word of God (which is Christ) and underlined by scripture.

Take care Solo that in your zeal for correcting (which should only be toward a brother or sister in Christ) that you do not shut the door on others who would enter the Kingdom of heaven.[/quote:6c8ee]
Believing that Jesus is God is evidence that one is born again. If you believe that Jesus not God then you are devoid of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and do not recognize the Spiritual truths that Jesus is God. Simple.