In Calvinism why are the sinners God made responsible for what God has made them?

[Fastfredy0]

A new born baby in the crib , where is the sin located in that child ? Is it a genetic problem ?

The bible (God) says we are conceived in sin. If you want clarification as to "where the sin is located" (whatever that means I don't know), ask God. Your request to answer "where is the sin located" doesn't matter ....maybe it in the kids appendix (j/k).

 

[hawkman]

The bible (God) says we are conceived in sin. If you want clarification as to "where the sin is located" (whatever that means I don't know), ask God. Your request to answer "where is the sin located" doesn't matter ....maybe it in the kids appendix (j/k).

Where the sin is attached matters . Because you are the one saying it is attached to the baby .
You say the sin is attached but you don't know where it is .
I have no need to ask God , there is no attached sin to a baby .

 

[jaybo]

Where the sin is attached matters . Because you are the one saying it is attached to the baby .
You say the sin is attached but you don't know where it is .
I have no need to ask God , there is no attached sin to a baby .

We are all born with Adam's sin nature. It is not attached, it is a part of us, like our mind.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hmmm... so free will in your opinion only applies to a choice to believe or not.....O.K., that seems limited, but whatever.

In the context that we are discussing it, free will means the freedom to believe or not to believe the gospel message. If I understand Calvinism correctly, it asserts that only an elect/chosen few are ordained before creation by God to have the will to irresistibly believe the gospel, while others are prevented from having the will to believe the gospel, either by default as the result of not being elected by God, or in the case of 'Double Predestination' purposely not being given the will to believe.

You are free to correct that understanding, but I would only ask that you provide some kind of authoritative source online to support any correction you provide so I can be equipped to accurately represent the Calvinistic argument in the future.

So you have:
Premise 1: God must call them (note: the definition of this call is lacking. Hopefully, it doesn't include the call of nature in Romans 1 that inclusivism proposes)

Yes.
And the calling does include the call of God in nature and conscience where the testimony of scripture is absent.

The capacity to be able to will to believe the testimony of God (given in the literal gospel, or in nature and conscience) is inherent in the call itself. For it is through the testimony of God that He provides the faith (the ability to know something is true that he can not see) necessary for a person to will to believe in and trust in what God is telling him. Faith comes through the hearing of the word of God, whether that word comes through the testimony of nature, through the voice of conscience, or the testimony of the written/spoken word.

Premise 2: This is a choice to be saved or not

Yes.
It is the choice to believe that there is a God, and that he is Judge of all.

Premise 3: this is a FREE choice ..... FREE FROM WHAT!!!!!

Free will means freedom from the inablilty of natural man to not be able to believe that which he can not see (Hebrews 11:1).

Conclusion: You're definition is too obtuse to have meaning.

Like, your definition is so open ended that it would fit the Augustinian (Reformed) definition save that you limit it to salvation.

I'm confident that with this post you can understand clearly and in some detail what the definition of 'free will' is that I am putting forth.

Reformed Theology believes you get to choose to be saved or not.
You will always choose what you desire most. (Augustine).

No, I'm pretty sure that Calvinism says 'free will' is purposely granted by God to those He has predestined before time began to be among the elect, and withheld from those He has determined before time began to not be among the elect, making them damned by default. And that in the 'Double Predestination' offshoot of Calvinism God purposely doesn't give 'free will' to the people he has ordained before time began to be damned and so in that sense purposely predestines them to be damned, not just remain by default in the condemnation it says all men start out in.

I'm open to any correction on that understanding, as long as it is supported by some kind of official source.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We are all born with Adam's sin nature. It is not attached, it is a part of us, like our mind.

You're speaking of the inevitable potential and propensity to sin that men are born with, not being born guilty of an actual sin that has been committed.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Because you are the one saying it is attached to the baby .
You say the sin is attached but you don't know where it is .

It does not matter what you think I said. It's what GOD says that matters. God's says you don't know what you are talking about when you say we are born without sin.
Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These go astray from birth, speaking lies [even twisted partial truths].
Psalm 51:5 I was brought forth in [a state of] wickedness; In sin my mother conceived me [and from my beginning I, too, was sinful].
Job 14:4; Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, John 3:6, Romans 3:23, Romans 5:12

God back up my statements ... your imagination is your resource.

 

[jasonc]

Very few of the reformed believe in double predestination.my pastor doesn't .

 

[Fastfredy0]

I'm open to any correction on that understanding, as long as it is supported by some kind of official source.

See https://founders.org/library-book/1689-confession/ .... Aside: there is always minor disagreement. The Westminster confession would have the same authority. In each case the documents believe the ultimate authority is scripture and that these documents represent man's systematic organization and are fallible

What is your source of the systematizing of scripture so I can browse it?

 

[Fastfredy0]

Very few of the reformed believe in double predestination.my pastor doesn't .

Agreed ... most don't believe in double predestination from my readings. I personally do.

 

[electedbyHim]

Off topic.



When does a human become a sinner?

Yes, sin is attached to us from birth (in the womb).
It's not only what I believe but what the Bible teaches.

More proof (aside: not that I need more)
Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, .... ALL SINNED, BABIES are PART OF ALL, therefore babies sinned ...not rocket science, simple logic
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— BECAUSE ALL SINNED ... BABIES are PART OF ALL, therefore babies sinned ...not rocket science, simple logic

All these verses .... WHERE THE HECK ARE YOUR VERSES TO CONTRADICT MINE or How are my verses interpreted incorrectly???????????????

Give your biblical evidence !!!!

But, they do not believe those scriptures.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Free will means freedom from the inablilty of natural man to not be able to believe that which he can not see (Hebrews 11:1).

Well, by that definition I can scientifically prove there is not such thing as FREE WILL.

Premise 1:

Free will means

freedom from the inablilty of natural man to not be able to believeYour definition is wordy.

To wordy... simply put free will is the ability for man to believe salvificly
Premise 2: A small percentage of men have chosen to believe (simple observation proves this)
Conclusion: Free Will does not exist as if it did then 50% (like flipping a coin) would believe. Something, someone has their finger on the scale.

 

[Fastfredy0]

But, they do not believe those scriptures.

Agreed. You can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink ... or a Ben Shapiro would say: What you want to believe you tend to believe and you tend to look for excuses to believe it.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

It does not matter what you think I said. It's what GOD says that matters. God's says you don't know what you are talking about when you say we are born without sin.
Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These go astray from birth, speaking lies [even twisted partial truths].
Psalm 51:5 I was brought forth in [a state of] wickedness; In sin my mother conceived me [and from my beginning I, too, was sinful].
Job 14:4; Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, John 3:6, Romans 3:23, Romans 5:12

God back up my statements ... your imagination is your resource.

Hello Fastfredy0.
In post #90, I answered the scriptures you've cited. I'm pretty sure you didn't reply.
Aside from this, God forbids the shedding of innocent blood and by innocent blood, he means anyone who has done nothing wrong.
The heresy that God views the sinless as the sinner, could be how the heresy of substitutionary atonement got started.

 

[GodsGrace]

Very few of the reformed believe in double predestination.my pastor doesn't .

Just fell on this...
No matter if you want to call it double predestination or not...
It ends up being double predestination.

Think about it.
I'm not going to try to explain it to you since what I say seems to get incorrect responses as if I'm not being understood.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hello Fastfredy0.
In post #90, I answered the scriptures you've cited. I'm pretty sure you didn't reply.
Aside from this, God forbids the shedding of innocent blood and by innocent blood, he means anyone who has done nothing wrong.
The heresy that God views the sinless as the sinner, could be how the heresy of substitutionary atonement got started.

Substitutionary Atonement, commonly known as The Theory of Penal Substitution did indeed come about after the reformation.

Good catch !

 

[GodsGrace]

Agreed. You can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink ... or a Ben Shapiro would say: What you want to believe you tend to believe and you tend to look for excuses to believe it.

This is rather prideful of you,,,as usual.
Perhaps YOU need to drink the water?

Why do you assume that YOU are correct and every other Christian denomination is wrong?
Did you ever stop to think that maybe John Calvin got it wrong?
Did you ever stop to consider that you're following the teachings of a man instead of the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles?

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, by that definition I can scientifically prove there is not such thing as FREE WILL.

Premise 1:

To wordy... simply put free will is the ability for man to believe salvificly
Premise 2: A small percentage of men have chosen to believe (simple observation proves this)
Conclusion: Free Will does not exist as if it did then 50% (like flipping a coin) would believe. Something, someone has their finger on the scale.

Wrong definition of free will.
Not like I'm going to spend any time trying to explain to you what it is....
Tried that about a year ago....
But, you can believe what you will -
Or can you?

 

[Fastfredy0]

The point is, Paul is teaching how mankind can know God from "the things that are made" Rom.1:20

Agreed.
Aside: There is nothing here saying they could have knowledge needed to be 'saved'. (Faith coming by hearing...yahda, yahda)

Reformed theology seems to teach that Jesus bore the wrath his Father has for sin, which to me is the most vile lie purpotrated against the gospel in all of christiandom.

We don't agree, but I don't want to go down that trail ... other fish to fry.

In Psa51, David says his mom conceived him in sin, which can easily be understood as meaning, David was born in a sinful world.

Well, at least an attempt. The context of the surrounding verses are all about DAVID and not the surrounding world... the word WORLD is not even used ... .and again, I gave other verses to support my exegesis ... Job 14:4; Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, John 3:6, Romans 3:23, Romans 5:12


I didn't want to reply before because you said you were not a protestant and therefore your source of authority of truth is not the bible alone and I don't want to bother arguing about alternate "sources of truth".

 

[jasonc]

Just fell on this...
No matter if you want to call it double predestination or not...
It ends up being double predestination.

Think about it.
I'm not going to try to explain it to you since what I say seems to get incorrect responses as if I'm not being understood.

No, my pastor has been reformed for close to two decades .
My elders even longer .one such elder studied under r.c sproul .

The church founder being reformed close to 40 years and I met him long before I thought of attending my current church and he remembers my old pastor and the church .he spoke and led revivals at that ,it was a very free will church . He then sounded very charismatic but he never was .he just is a team builder and focused on the basics and wants souls to be won .he does without compromising his reformed views.

He is why we have a Spanish church that is charismatic and is joined at the hip .he told the pastors husband you arent leaving .the presbytery has budgeted for you .he ran out to meet the man and ask him who he was and wanted him to know despite our differences he was welcome .

 

[GodsGrace]

In the context that we are discussing it, free will means the freedom to believe or not to believe the gospel message. If I understand Calvinism correctly, it asserts that only an elect/chosen few are ordained before creation by God to have the will to irresistibly believe the gospel, while others are prevented from having the will to believe the gospel, either by default as the result of not being elected by God, or in the case of 'Double Predestination' purposely not being given the will to believe.

You are free to correct that understanding, but I would only ask that you provide some kind of authoritative source online to support any correction you provide so I can be equipped to accurately represent the Calvinistic argument in the future.


Yes.
And the calling does include the call of God in nature and conscience where the testimony of scripture is absent.

The capacity to be able to will to believe the testimony of God (given in the literal gospel, or in nature and conscience) is inherent in the call itself. For it is through the testimony of God that He provides the faith (the ability to know something is true that he can not see) necessary for a person to will to believe in and trust in what God is telling him. Faith comes through the hearing of the word of God, whether that word comes through the testimony of nature, through the voice of conscience, or the testimony of the written/spoken word.


Yes.
It is the choice to believe that there is a God, and that he is Judge of all.


Free will means freedom from the inablilty of natural man to not be able to believe that which he can not see (Hebrews 11:1).


I'm confident that with this post you can understand clearly and in some detail what the definition of 'free will' is that I am putting forth.



No, I'm pretty sure that Calvinism says 'free will' is purposely granted by God to those He has predestined before time began to be among the elect, and withheld from those He has determined before time began to not be among the elect, making them damned by default. And that in the 'Double Predestination' offshoot of Calvinism God purposely doesn't give 'free will' to the people he has ordained before time began to be damned and so in that sense purposely predestines them to be damned, not just remain by default in the condemnation it says all men start out in.

I'm open to any correction on that understanding, as long as it is supported by some kind of official source.

Great post Jethro.
I'll tell you one thing that is not really correct.
I highlighted it above...

Calvinism teaches that NO MAN HAS FREE WILL.

The reason he doesn't have free will is due to the T of TULIP...
Total Depravity. We are so depraved that we have no ABILITY to respond to God, so He has to force us up out of the mire.

Man cannot have free will because God predestinated EVERYTHING that happens to each and everyone of us...
so there is no such thing as free will in Calvinism.



Let him, therefore, who would beware of such unbelief, always bear in mind, that there is no random power, or agency, or motion in the creatures, who are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed.
John Calvin's Institutes
Book 1
Chapter 16
Paragraph 3




I concede more--that thieves and murderers, and other evil-doers, are instruments of Divine Providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute the Judgments which he has resolved to inflict.
Book 1
Chapter 17
Paragraph 5




By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.
Book 3
Chapter 21
Paragraph 5





God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin,
Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter III
Paragraph 1


Please note that it states that God predestined EVERYTHING that will come to pass, but He is not responsible for evil...interesting. And in the same way, God predestines those who are reprobate, BUT THEY are still responsible for being that way. Please see paragraphs 1 to 5.

3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others fore-ordained to everlasting death.
WCF
Chapter III
Paragraph 3