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In Calvinism why are the sinners God made responsible for what God has made them?

wondering said:
Free,
You've hit upon my pet peeve with calvinism.
I would like an explanation from someone, anyone, as to the following:

How do you explain that God is loving, merciful and just (which He is)
IF He chooses those who will be saved and those who will be lost and damned,
for no other reason than that it pleases Him.

Thanks.
Click to expand...
Its very simple, but I am certain that this is not correct and there will be a 100 page dissertation on what those verses are really mean.

Here is the Biblical answer I have posted many times.



Romans 9:19-24 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? WILL THE THING MOLDED SAY TO THE MOLDER, “WHY DID YOU MAKE ME LIKE THIS”? 21 Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 And what if God, wanting to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath having been prepared for destruction, 23 and in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles?
 
electedbyhim said:
Why are there too many commentaries and books?

Faithful men of God have written them. These men and their lives testify for what they live and teach, ordained by God to the calling. Many good OT and NT surveys, historical books, backgrounds and the like.

The problem becomes when people do not need a Pastor or other ordained men of God to teach them. I have heard many a charismatic say, I do not need commentaries, books or a Pastor, the Holy Spirit will teach me all things. The problem with this is that many people believe the Holy Spirit is a feeling and talking to them. Just turn on the idiot box to TBN and you will see all this in motion.

This is the verse many people use to justify that Holy Spirit teaches them, but that verse is not talking about what these people think.

John 14:26 “But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Grace and peace to you.
Click to expand...
I didn't say all of the above.
You get posters all mixed up.
When you're speaking TO ME, for instance, just answer to what I wrote...
Fastfredy0 , by his own admission, reads systematic theology and commentaries.
I don't believe this is a good way to learn what the bible is trying to teach.
If we read the bible, we will learn directly from it.
Check out his posts, they're almost entirely rewritten from books or commentaries.
It makes me wonder if he's able to put this thoughts into his own words.

You could disagree with my assessment -
but I'm also allowed to have my opinion.
 
wondering said:
Free,
You've hit upon my pet peeve with calvinism.
I would like an explanation from someone, anyone, as to the following:

How do you explain that God is loving, merciful and just (which He is)
IF He chooses those who will be saved and those who will be lost and damned,
for no other reason than that it pleases Him.

Thanks.
Click to expand...
The Bible says God is loving, merciful, and just, therefore, anything God does cannot go against those things. That's the bottom line.

Remember, people are doomed to eternity apart from him regardless of whether or not he chooses, and he provided the only way to salvation, at the highest possible cost to himself. So, if God chooses who will be saved, that even one person would be chosen, never mind millions, is loving, merciful, and just, regardless of what we think of his reasons or whether we know them at all.
 
electedbyhim said:
Its very simple, but I am certain that this is not correct and there will be a 100 page dissertation on what those verses are really mean.

Here is the Biblical answer I have posted many times.



Romans 9:19-24 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? WILL THE THING MOLDED SAY TO THE MOLDER, “WHY DID YOU MAKE ME LIKE THIS”? 21 Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 And what if God, wanting to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath having been prepared for destruction, 23 and in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles?
Click to expand...
And I've told you many times that Romans 9, 10 and 11 are about corporate salvation, and although I could discuss it to some degree, I'm not willing to because this is, as you would say, a strawman.

I'm not speaking about Romans 9.

I asked a direct question to which I HAVE NEVER received a reply.
If you wish to reply, I'd be very happy to read your thoughts on this,
posting Romans 9 DOES NOT reply to my question.

OR, let me make it easier.
Do you think the God of Romans 9 is a just God?
He makes some vessels for honor and some for destruction.
and for what? for His glory !

Is this a God of love, mercy and justice?
Please explain how.
Thanks.
 
Free said:
The Bible says God is loving, merciful, and just, therefore, anything God does cannot go against those things. That's the bottom line.

Remember, people are doomed to eternity apart from him regardless of whether or not he chooses, and he provided the only way to salvation, at the highest possible cost to himself. So, if God chooses who will be saved, that even one person would be chosen, never mind millions, is loving, merciful, and just, regardless of what we think of his reasons or whether we know them at all.
Click to expand...
No Free. That is not the bottom line.
The bible could state whatever it wants to state.
But if it's NOT TRUE???
The bible must state truth, or we will not be able to trust it.

You also are not answering my question.
God could choose whom He will....correct.

But is this JUSTICE?
Is this a JUST GOD?

Why would I trust a God who is capable of doing such a dastardly deed?

Besides the fact that I can't even find where in the NT this is stated. Or the OT.
I see Jesus beseeching persons to listen to Him and to be His disciples so we will not be kicked out
where there will weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I see Jesus telling us about a wise man who HEARD the words of Jesus and built his house on a rock.
And a foolish man who built his house on sand.
The multitudes were amazed at His teaching, as one who had authority.

It sounds to me like the two men had the free will choice to decide whether to heed Jesus or not.

But please reply to my question.
Thanks.
 
Free said:
The Bible says God is loving, merciful, and just, therefore, anything God does cannot go against those things. That's the bottom line.

Remember, people are doomed to eternity apart from him regardless of whether or not he chooses, and he provided the only way to salvation, at the highest possible cost to himself. So, if God chooses who will be saved, that even one person would be chosen, never mind millions, is loving, merciful, and just, regardless of what we think of his reasons or whether we know them at all.
Click to expand...
PS
You mentioned that God provided a way to salvation. I have to think you mean Jesus.
Think of this:
WHY did Jesus have to die on a cross if it's up to God to pick who will be saved?
The reason Jesus died was to atone for the sins of those that CHOOSE TO BE SAVED by Him.
If God is doing the choosing...why did Jesus have to atone for anyone's sins?
It becomes totally pointless.
 
wondering said:
No Free. That is not the bottom line.
The bible could state whatever it wants to state.
But if it's NOT TRUE???
The bible must state truth, or we will not be able to trust it.

You also are not answering my question.
God could choose whom He will....correct.

But is this JUSTICE?
Is this a JUST GOD?

Why would I trust a God who is capable of doing such a dastardly deed?

Besides the fact that I can't even find where in the NT this is stated. Or the OT.
I see Jesus beseeching persons to listen to Him and to be His disciples so we will not be kicked out
where there will weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I see Jesus telling us about a wise man who HEARD the words of Jesus and built his house on a rock.
And a foolish man who built his house on sand.
The multitudes were amazed at His teaching, as one who had authority.

It sounds to me like the two men had the free will choice to decide whether to heed Jesus or not.

But please reply to my question.
Thanks.
Click to expand...
I did reply to your question. God is loving, merciful, and just, so everything he does is loving, merciful, and just.

That's all I'm going to say. I'm out.
 
wondering said:
PS
You mentioned that God provided a way to salvation. I have to think you mean Jesus.
Think of this:
WHY did Jesus have to die on a cross if it's up to God to pick who will be saved?
The reason Jesus died was to atone for the sins of those that CHOOSE TO BE SAVED by Him.
If God is doing the choosing...why did Jesus have to atone for anyone's sins?
It becomes totally pointless.
Click to expand...
God has always demanded a penalty for sin, and all have sinned. The price has always been a substitutionary life. In the Old Covenant, it was the life of an animal or bird. In the New Covenant, it was/is a human life.

The real tragedy to me is that so many people believe in their own righteousness, i.e., that they are not sinners. Since they believe that, then they also believe that no price needs to be paid. That makes me very, very, very unhappy.

All anyone has to do is accept the fact that they sin and that the penalty for their sin has been paid. I mean, really, why is that so difficult?

That is why I dislike "religion". People, especially Catholics, believe that there is something more that they must continually do to earn God's approval, forgetting that GOD IS LOVE!
 
Free said:
I did reply to your question. God is loving, merciful, and just, so everything he does is loving, merciful, and just.

That's all I'm going to say. I'm out.
Click to expand...
OK.
But just because the bible says so....
it has to be proven true.
The reformed God is not loving, merciful or just.
 
jaybo said:
God has always demanded a penalty for sin, and all have sinned. The price has always been a substitutionary life. In the Old Covenant, it was the life of an animal or bird. In the New Covenant, it was/is a human life.

The real tragedy to me is that so many people believe in their own righteousness, i.e., that they are not sinners. Since they believe that, then they also believe that no price needs to be paid. That makes me very, very, very unhappy.

All anyone has to do is accept the fact that they sin and that the penalty for their sin has been paid. I mean, really, why is that so difficult?

That is why I dislike "religion". People, especially Catholics, believe that there is something more that they must continually do to earn God's approval, forgetting that GOD IS LOVE!
Click to expand...
:thumbsup
 
wondering said:
I didn't say all of the above.
You get posters all mixed up.
When you're speaking TO ME, for instance, just answer to what I wrote...
Fastfredy0 , by his own admission, reads systematic theology and commentaries.
I don't believe this is a good way to learn what the bible is trying to teach.
If we read the bible, we will learn directly from it.
Check out his posts, they're almost entirely rewritten from books or commentaries.
It makes me wonder if he's able to put this thoughts into his own words.
wondering said:
And I've told you many times that Romans 9, 10 and 11 are about corporate salvation, and although I could discuss it to some degree, I'm not willing to because this is, as you would say, a strawman.

I'm not speaking about Romans 9.

I asked a direct question to which I HAVE NEVER received a reply.
If you wish to reply, I'd be very happy to read your thoughts on this,
posting Romans 9 DOES NOT reply to my question.

OR, let me make it easier.
Do you think the God of Romans 9 is a just God?
He makes some vessels for honor and some for destruction.
and for what? for His glory !

Is this a God of love, mercy and justice?
Please explain how.
Thanks.
Click to expand...

You could disagree with my assessment -
but I'm also allowed to have my opinion.
Click to expand...
I am done replying to you.

Your condescending posts and replies are not worthy of good conversation and a waste of time.

Grace and peace to you.
 
electedbyhim said:
I am done replying to you.

Your condescending posts and replies are not worthy of good conversation and a waste of time.

Grace and peace to you.
Click to expand...
Good idea.
But you should really do it instead of tricking me with a nice post and then ending up like you do.
Plus, if I've been condescending to you, could you please show me the post -
or are you just going to accuse me?
 
wondering said:
Good idea.
But you should really do it instead of tricking me with a nice post and then ending up like you do.
Plus, if I've been condescending to you, could you please show me the post -
or are you just going to accuse me?
Click to expand...


Because the “Reformed” position relies on man made doctrine, they usually end up attacking with ad hominem remarks or leaving the discussion.

:shrug



JLB
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Help this poor soul out, then. Explain who the 'good' but not righteous person is in Romans 5:7 that you say doesn't exist.
Click to expand...
Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Mark 10:18 “Why do you call Me good?” Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone.

One verse says "no one is righteous" and another says there are righteous people.
One verse says some men are "good" and another says no one is good but God.

Assuming God doesn't contradict himself ... I leave it to you to unravel this conundrum. My advice is to look at some commentaries ... good luck
 
wondering said:
PS
You mentioned that God provided a way to salvation. I have to think you mean Jesus.
Think of this:
WHY did Jesus have to die on a cross if it's up to God to pick who will be saved?
The reason Jesus died was to atone for the sins of those that CHOOSE TO BE SAVED by Him.
If God is doing the choosing...why did Jesus have to atone for anyone's sins?
It becomes totally pointless.
Click to expand...
I will just correct this misunderstanding. Jesus had to die for the same reason as you believe. There can be no forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood, regardless of whether or not God chooses. The means of salvation does not change. Jesus died to atone for the sins of those who will be saved. If God predestined some to be saved, that does not negate the need for atonement.
 
JLB said:
This question usually causes the Calvinist to leave the discussion because they have no answer.





JLB
Click to expand...

JLB said:
Because the “Reformed” position relies on man made doctrine, they usually end up attacking with ad hominem remarks or leaving the discussion.

:shrug



JLB
Click to expand...
If you have something of substance to actually add to the discussion, feel free to do so, but trolling violates the ToS.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
And then when you're done explaining that, explain who the person acquitted at the return of Christ is who never heard of Jesus or the gospel is (Romans 2:13-16), but who you claim does not exist. You gots lots of explaining to do. Or just come clean and abandon your Calvinistic beliefs.
Click to expand...
You keep switching subjects. Inclusivism and 'are babies born with sin accounted to them.

Inclusivism vs. exclusivism—what does the Bible say?​

here's your answer ... https://www.gotquestions.org/inclusivism-exclusivism.html​


Are all people born good?​

https://www.gotquestions.org/born-good.html

Aside: you should go to this non-reformed site to help you figure things out. Note: They back up what they say with verses.
Good Luck
 
Free said:
The Bible says God is loving, merciful, and just, therefore, anything God does cannot go against those things. That's the bottom line.
Click to expand...
I basically agree. I would qualify the statement.
God’s perfections qualify each other. Because God is each of his perfections in all his essence, then each of his perfections complements and qualifies each of his other perfections. For example, his justice is a holy justice, and his love is a righteous love.
God’s perfections should be studied in concert with one another. Since God is totally each of his perfections, one should not study a single perfection of God in isolation from all his other perfections. Each perfection should be studied as complemented and qualified by (i.e., integrated with) all the other perfections and vice versa. John MacArthur – Biblical Doctrine
Example: People say God is Love and conclude God loves everyone the same. But God's love is just and holy so He does not love someone that is 'in Christ' like he loves those who are described as the "sons of Satan'. Psalm 7:11 “God is angry with the wicked every day.” (KJV) John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (KJV)
 
Fastfredy0 said:
Not sure what you are talking about. It was my bad for not specifically stating the purpose/theme of my post #355 which is: Babies are born in sin. An answer to this question is given by https://www.gotquestions.org/born-good.html, who gave various biblical references to back up their opinion.
Note: One should give scripture to prove ones point.

Premise 1: The penalty for sin is death Rom. 6:23
Premise 2: Some Babies die
Conclusion: Babies has sin accounted/imputed to them
Click to expand...
What a sad site gotquestions.org is . I would think they do not have ANY pentecostal writers :sad .
I will share my thoughts about this link here https://www.gotquestions.org/cessationism.html
Here is what they say .
" There are indications that the gift of tongues has ceased."
"History indicates that tongues did cease. "

The gifts of the Holy Spirit are still with us today as they were before ! How do I know ? The Holy Spirit was used me and worked through me many times .

Fastfredy0 , if gotquestions.org is your bible fact checker , look out !
 
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