In Calvinism why are the sinners God made responsible for what God has made them?

[Iconoclast]

Hi Jethro, I can't really be here and am sorry about this.

What you're talking about here (I did read through) is called prevenient grace.
It means that God gives enough grace to everyone in order to make them be aware of His presence and to give them the opportunity to either believe or not believe. Some will remain atheists - it's always man's free will choice.

You will be told constantly that you don't understand calvinism or that you're not explaining it correctly.
This is a mystery to me --- how someone could be of the reformed faith and not understand what it teaches is indeed a mystery.

It's like saying I'm Catholic, and then denying everything Catholicism teaches: Confession, Purgatory.
I could EXPLAIN WHY they believe it (which I've done on here many times) But I cannot DENY it.

Previent grace is not found anywhere in scripture.

 

[Iconoclast]

In the same way as two people could enter into a contract where they split 50/50 the profits. The actual number that the profits turn out to be can not be assessed until the job is finished. So He gave them to Jesus, what ever it turns out to be after everything is all said and done.

And of course God knows beforehand who all will choose life but that doesn't mean anything is predetermined, the amount of people who will be saved. It merely means that God is outside of time itself and can see our end on this earth.

You see, God is not willing that any should die...Conclusion: we make the choice.

I can't tear that page out of my Bible.

The bible does not say that God is unwilling that a n y die.

Did God send the flood to give the world of the ungodly a bath?
Death was in view there for multitudes of people, second death to follow.
Nothing is a 50/50 proposition.
The Father gave a multitude to the Son...very straightforward.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Conclusion: God determines who is saved because "Man's will is not in the driver seat" (John 1:12-13)

The 'determination' of who is saved and who is not that I'm resisting is the Calvinistic belief that God purposely creates and ordains ahead of time some people to be believers, and purposely creates and ordains ahead of time others to not be believers.

Of course, insofar as the gospel being preached, and who he saves and who he doesn't save, God does determine who he saves and who he doesn't based on whether or not they receive and retain the gospel word in believing, not on whether or not he designed and created them to be a believer or not.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry Fredy about mistaking you with the other poster, however that being said=
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

This does not teach that all things are predestined...it is saying those elected have obtained the eternal inheritance, having been predestined to that.
This is not saying God is the author of sin as these enemies of grace would suggest.

These enemies of grace understand predestination.
You must be using your very own books.

Here it is again:

Let him, therefore, who would beware of such unbelief, always bear in mind, that there is no random power, or agency, or motion in the creatures, who are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed.
John Calvin's Institutes
Book 1
Chapter 16
Paragraph 3
I concede more--that thieves and murderers, and other evil-doers, are instruments of Divine Providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute the Judgments which he has resolved to inflict.
Book 1
Chapter 17
Paragraph 5
By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.
Book 3
Chapter 21
Paragraph 5
1. God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;a yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin,
Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter III
Paragraph 1
Please note that it states that God predestined EVERYTHING that will come to pass, but He is not responsible for evil...interesting. And in the same way, God predestines those who are reprobate, BUT THEY are responsible for being that way. Please see paragraphs 1 to 5.

3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angelsa are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others fore-ordained to everlasting death.
WCF
Chapter III
Paragraph 3

 

[GodsGrace]

Not a problem.

Re: Eph. 1:11 ... I don't agree with your limiting God worketh all things after the counsel of his own will to just the elect ... but we will just agree to disagree.

O.K. I will list more verses showing God controls things and to make is more convincing I will list verses in which is controls evil ...

• Joshua 11:20 For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, that [Israel] might destroy them utterly, and that without favor and mercy, as the Lord commanded Moses. The Canaanites were destroyed by Joshua
• Judges 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem, [which aided him in the killing of his brethren ]
• Judges 14:4 …it was from the LORD; for he was seeking an occasion against the Philistines. At that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel. Samson’s demand to marry an unbelieving Philistine woman
• 1 Samuel 2:25 The sons of Eli, when rebuked for their evil deeds, “But they would not listen to their father, for it was the Lord’s will to put them to death”.
• 1 Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord tormented and troubled him.
• 2 Samuel 12:11 Thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I will stir up evil against you from your own household; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. 12 Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and [in broad daylight.]’” When David sinned, the LORD said to him through Nathan the prophet, [Fulfilled in 2 Samuel 16:21, 22.]
• 2 Samuel 16:11 Let him alone and let him curse, for [it could be that] the Lord has told him [to do it]. When Shimei cursed David and threw stones at him and his servants (2 Samuel 15:5-8), David refused to take vengeance on Shimei but said to his soldiers, “the Lord has told him [to do it]”.
• Isaiah 14:24 The Lord of hosts has sworn [an oath], saying, “Just as I have intended, so it has certainly happened, and just as I have planned, so it will stand—
• Joseph’s brother were wrongly jealous of him (Genesis 37:11), hated him (Genesis 37:4, 5, 8), and wanted to kill him (Genesis 37:24) and then sold him into slavery in Egypt (Genesis 37:28). Yet later Joseph could say to his brother, “God sent me before you to preserve life” (Genesis 45:5), and “you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today” (Genesis 50:20). Here we have a combination of evil deeds brought about by sinful men who are rightly held accountable for their sin and the overriding providential control of God whereby God’s own purposes were accomplished. Both are clearly affirmed.God Decreed the Gravest of All Sins
  
  God decreed the death of Christ for his own reason, namely, the redemption of his chosen ones. Likewise, he wills evil for the worthy purpose of his glory. For this same reason, he created some people for salvation and some people for damnation:
  • Acts 2:23 this Man, when handed over [to the Roman authorities] according to the predetermined decision and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross and put to death by the hands of lawless and godless men.
  • Acts 4:27-28 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

I could list another 30 such verses regarding God controlling evil ... or 80 verses showing God controls men like Daniel 5:23b But you have not glorified the God who has in his control your very breath and all your ways!

So, I don't agree with your statement:

Obviously, there are quit a number of verses

An honest calvinist.
Praise the Lord !

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You sure you aren't on my side? I agree, God determines who is saved and God must make the first move. He regenerated us changing our will causing us to believe and repent.

I'm not on your side in that I do not believe that God decided beforehand who he will purposely create a believer, and who he will purposely create to never be a believer.

 

[GodsGrace]

God is in control of whatsoever comes to pass, that is not in question.
What is in view is the wrong use of the Biblical word predestination.
Each different term has a Biblical usage.
God is never the author of sin.
God does not make anyone sin.

If God predestinates EVERYTHING....
HOW is He NOT the author of sin?

I hope you know that McArthur and Piper both admit that God IS the author of sin,,,
for, from where else would it come?

If you're going to be a calvinist Iconoclast -
then be one.

 

[GodsGrace]

Don't twist my words. The Calvinist doctrines put forth in this thread by others very much make it seem as if they hold to the Lord being nonmerciful nonloving and nonjust. So tell them to not speak such untruths!

I do not represent Calviists in any way. I am not a Calvinist. My words were as a representitive of Jesus Christ. I don't speak to Calvinism or for them. Read my post again. I said I hold to: that God is loving, merciful and just. Because he is.

If that shoe fits calvinists, then it does.

This is also for Free

I plead guilty...it's me that states that the calvinist God is unloving, unmerciful and unjust.

I'M saying it...it's not that calvinism teaches this.

But if God is responsible for everything, including murder, sickness, EVERYTHING, then how could He possibly
be loving, merciful and just?

This is my point.

 

[GodsGrace]

God did not make sinners.GEN.1:31
God made man upright.Eccl.7:29

Are you going to follow the bible,
or are you going to follow John Calvin ?
Or the Baptist CF from 1689?

Make up your mind.

 

[GodsGrace]

And I'm good with that. God purposely chooses/elects those who have responded in faith to the planting and watering of the word that he has done in them. You can probably see how that varies somewhat from the Calvinist's understanding of God purposely choosing people. In Calvinism, he chooses people when he creates them. In what I'm saying he chooses a person when they have faith.

I resist the notion that he purposely created some soil able to respond in faith and some not. I believe the potential to respond to the word in faith is a feature that lies within the person themselves. God's foreknowledge is simply him knowing ahead of time who those are that have that potential, and those who do not, and he deals with them accordingly.

Of course I see the difference.
The problem is that the reformed do not see the difference.
Except some really hones ones, like Fastfredy0 .

 

[GodsGrace]

Must leave.
I'll Be Back.

 

[Free]

Yes, Calvinism believes that God purposely made Adam sin because Adam did not have free will, according too the reformed. Some, instead, teach that Adam lost free will at the fall...
In either case, it's taught that man does not have free will.

That's not what I've heard from the pulpit. Man has free will, to an extent, and God is absolutely sovereign; the two are held in tension as a mystery, which I think more Christians would do well to do. I think the issue of free will is much more complicated, especially as a student of behavioural science, I understand that there is much more going on in how we make decisions than we realize.

Just searched and found this video/transcript by R.C. Sproul: https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/chosen-by-god/what-is-free-will

'Calvin, in examining the question of free will, says that if we mean by free will that fallen man has the ability to choose what he wants, then of course fallen man has free will. But if we mean by that term that man in his fallen state has the moral power and ability to choose righteousness, then, said Calvin, “free will is far too grandiose a term to apply to fallen man.” And with that sentiment I would agree.'

 

[electedbyHim]

What does everyone believe these Bible verses are saying.

I am curious on the answers.

Romans 9:17-23 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, IN ORDER TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND IN ORDER THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? WILL THE THING MOLDED SAY TO THE MOLDER, “WHY DID YOU MAKE ME LIKE THIS”? 21 Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 And what if God, wanting to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath having been prepared for destruction, 23 and in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory


2 Peter 2:12 But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, blaspheming where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I agree that we have to understand what 'free will' means in the context of what we're talking about.

Man does not have the free will to decide one day out of the blue that he's going to storm the gates of heaven and be saved apart from God's calling. But he does have the free will to decide to believe and receive the gospel when God graciously gives him the chance to do so. And he will IF he has that potential for loving the truth within himself as a conscious, created, spiritual being (like the angels). I resist the notion that God decides ahead of time that this person will be purposely created with the capacity to love the truth, and this person will not be.

Again I plead ... define FREE WILL.
Your statement has no foundation if you don't (can't) give it meaning. ... define FREE WILL.

What and/or Who determines ones decision to believe salvificly???????? This is the question that determines what is meant by FREE in "FREE WILL". Everyone chooses to believe or not believe... that is the WILL part of FREE WILL. Now define the FREE part of FREE WILL which is : What and/or Who determines ones decision to believe salvificly????????

 

[Fastfredy0]

Man has free will, to an extent, and God is absolutely sovereign; the two are held in tension as a mystery, which I think more Christians would do well to do.

I can't stress how important it is to define terms. If two or more people speak of FREE WILL and have different meanings then they will not understand each other.

Concerning Free Will from a Reformed perspective ...
Augustine (who basically taught reformed doctrine) defined FREE WILL as: one always chooses that which he desires most at the time. (I doubt one can find an empirical exception to this statement)
So, when it comes to believing or not believing salvificly man is FREE to choose to believe or not believe using Augustine's definition. Now you may ask, if man is FREE to choice why does reform theology say man must first be regenerated to have saving faith. The answer is the depravity of man (NO ONE SEEKS GOD... I can list another 50 verses saying man's will never choose to believe of himself because every man's desire (man's nature) will cause him to NOT choose to believe). Now, with regeneration by the Spirit man's desire is changed such that he now believes salvificly.
Aside1: Now Arminians agree to the idea that man's depravity stops him from believing save for "Prevenient grace" for which there is 3 or 4 implicit verses.
Aside2: Most people won't/can't define FREE WILL.

Just searched and found this video/transcript by R.C. Sproul: https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/chosen-by-god/what-is-free-will

I semi-recognized this information as I recalled Sproul's "Alice in Wonderland" analogy.
Sproul's "Spontaneous Choice" sounds equivalent to "Libertarian Free Will" which is defined as the ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition.
Again, my experience is that people only have a foggy idea of what they mean by FREE WILL and this is anecdotally supported by the answer people give when I call for a definition. Basically, FREE WILL for them is the mysterious magical words that help them explain their anthropocentric doctrine of God's complacent love for everyone and the idea of what is fair.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Salvific faith requires facts to be believed in order to be saved. I believe (have faith) that if I drop a pencil it will fall. This is faith, but it is not Faith that Saves.

Correct, it is not faith that saves for someone who has knowledge of Christ and the gospel. Not your example of faith you used to illustrate your point (which is actually not an example of faith because you can see it) but the faith Hebrews talks about: Faith that God exists, and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.That is sufficient faith to save our Amazonian forest dweller from the 1200’s. Paul says so, but if you are sure he’s not talking about him tell us who this person is that Paul says is vindicated at the return of Christ on the basis of the testimony of God in nature and conscience that he received.

Again I plead ... define FREE WILL.
Your statement has no foundation if you don't (can't) give it meaning. ... define FREE WILL.

What and/or Who determines ones decision to believe salvificly???????? This is the question that determines what is meant by FREE in "FREE WILL". Everyone chooses to believe or not believe... that is the WILL part of FREE WILL. Now define the FREE part of FREE WILL which is : What and/or Who determines ones decision to believe salvificly????????

I answered that in the post you are responding to. Man has the free will to respond or not to respond to the gospel message when given the opportunity by God to respond. Calvinism says no one has the free will to respond the way they want to at that time because God decided for them before creation existed how they will respond.

 

[GodsGrace]

I can't stress how important it is to define terms. If two or more people speak of FREE WILL and have different meanings then they will not understand each other.

Concerning Free Will from a Reformed perspective ...
Augustine (who basically taught reformed doctrine) defined FREE WILL as: one always chooses that which he desires most at the time. (I doubt one can find an empirical exception to this statement)
So, when it comes to believing or not believing salvificly man is FREE to choose to believe or not believe using Augustine's definition. Now you may ask, if man is FREE to choice why does reform theology say man must first be regenerated to have saving faith. The answer is the depravity of man (NO ONE SEEKS GOD... I can list another 50 verses saying man's will never choose to believe of himself because every man's desire (man's nature) will cause him to NOT choose to believe). Now, with regeneration by the Spirit man's desire is changed such that he now believes salvificly.
Aside1: Now Arminians agree to the idea that man's depravity stops him from believing save for "Prevenient grace" for which there is 3 or 4 implicit verses.
Aside2: Most people won't/can't define FREE WILL.


I semi-recognized this information as I recalled Sproul's "Alice in Wonderland" analogy.
Sproul's "Spontaneous Choice" sounds equivalent to "Libertarian Free Will" which is defined as the ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition.
Again, my experience is that people only have a foggy idea of what they mean by FREE WILL and this is anecdotally supported by the answer people give when I call for a definition. Basically, FREE WILL for them is the mysterious magical words that help them explain their anthropocentric doctrine of God's complacent love for everyone and the idea of what is fair.

Oh FF,
What difference does it make that you understand what another member believes free will is.
In your paradigm there is no free will, that's all you have to know.

See post no. 144

And please post some scripture that supports the theory that
MAN IS SO DEPRAVED THAT HE IS UNABLE TO SEEK GOD.

Do you need tens of verses stating that we can seek God?
I'm just getting a little tired of posting verses over and over and over again....
But let me know...

 

[GodsGrace]

Correct, it is not faith that saves for someone who has knowledge of Christ and the gospel. Not your example of faith you used to illustrate your point (which is actually not an example of faith because you can see it) but the faith Hebrews talks about: Faith that God exists, and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.That is sufficient faith to save our Amazonian forest dweller from the 1200’s. Paul says so, but if you are sure he’s not talking about him tell us who this person is that Paul says is vindicated at the return of Christ on the basis of the testimony of God in nature and conscience that he received.


I answered that in the post you are responding to. Man has the free will to respond or not to respond to the gospel message when given the opportunity by God to respond. Calvinism says no one has the free will to respond the way they want to at that time because God decided for them before creation existed how they will respond.

The other member will never accept ANY explanation of free will.
I tried for a few pages. Just give up right now and continue on....

Biblically speaking (not philosophically as he would like)
free will simply means having the ability to choose between two moral options.
That's it. That's all it means.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

What does everyone believe these Bible verses are saying.

I am curious on the answers.

Romans 9:17-23 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, IN ORDER TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND IN ORDER THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.”

God raised Moses up for the same purpose. This passage shows how God is honored, whether a sinner repents, or not.

electedbyhim,
Can you see how God hardened Pharaohs' heart.....by sending Moses (a nobody) to him with a demand?

18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

So our Lord says,

Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. Mt.5:7

Therefore, Paul isn't teaching that God wouldn't let Pharaoh repent. He's teaching how a man who thought he was a god, mocked Gods' lowly servant. He didn't have to, but his splendor prevented him.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? WILL THE THING MOLDED SAY TO THE MOLDER, “WHY DID YOU MAKE ME LIKE THIS”? 21 Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
22 And what if God, wanting to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath having been prepared for destruction, 23 and in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory

electedbyhim,
Jer.18 shows how the Potter molds clay. It has nothing to do with God wanting to mold an evil person. It has everything to do with voluntarily submitting to his word, or not. Please, look at what God says about himself as the Potter molding clay.

2 Peter 2:12 But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, blaspheming where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,

Peter is speaking about people like those of Noahs' and Lots' days, who heard and rejected Gods' word.

making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 2 Pet.2:6

God made an example of them for a reason that people living ungodly lifestyles could understand.....so they might repent. Jesus said,

Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Lk.18:4

Jesus is giving the people listening to him reason to repent. Like the Potter,

At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. Jer.18:7-8

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Grace and peace to you.

Which means, sinners who refused Gods' goodness are made for the day of evil.

 

[GodsGrace]

What does everyone believe these Bible verses are saying.

I am curious on the answers.

Romans 9:17-23 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, IN ORDER TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND IN ORDER THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? WILL THE THING MOLDED SAY TO THE MOLDER, “WHY DID YOU MAKE ME LIKE THIS”? 21 Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 And what if God, wanting to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath having been prepared for destruction, 23 and in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory

Romans 9, 10 and 11 are not about personal salvation, although persons do make up nations.
This is about corporate salvation, or, God's relationship with Israel.

Romans 9:17 is speaking about the potter and the clay.
This refers back to
Jeremiah 18:1-6
The Potter and the Clay

1The LORD gave another message to Jeremiah. He said, 2“Go down to the potter’s shop, and I will speak to you there.” 3So I did as he told me and found the potter working at his wheel. 4But the jar he was making did not turn out as he had hoped, so he crushed it into a lump of clay again and started over.

5Then the LORD gave me this message: 6“O Israel, can I not do to you as this potter has done to his clay? As the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand. 7If I announce that a certain nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down, and destroyed, 8but then that nation renounces its evil ways, I will not destroy it as I had planned. 9And if I announce that I will plant and build up a certain nation or kingdom, 10but then that nation turns to evil and refuses to obey me, I will not bless it as I said I would.

11“Therefore, Jeremiah, go and warn all Judah and Jerusalem. Say to them, ‘This is what the LORD says: I am planning disaster for you instead of good. So turn from your evil ways, each of you, and do what is right.’”
God was speaking through Jeremiah about the nation of Israel.
Ditto for Paul in Romans 9, 10 and 11.
Under the type of a potter, is shown God's absolute power in disposing of NATIONS.
See
Matthew 25:31 Jesus will judge the nations.

If you're REALLY interested, here's more information, I'm not a scholar:

The Jews, the Future, and God (Romans 9-11) | Preaching Source

2 Peter 2:12 But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, blaspheming where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Grace and peace to you.

2 Peter 2:12 is speaking of wicked, evil teachers.
They purposefully do this...
It does not refer to the general population of humans.