In God's eyes, is there a difference between kinds of sin?

[Sparkey]

We are not told to pray regarding our brother's offence when it 'leads to death'.

1 John 5:16

While speaking about giving preference to persons, James spoke the counterpoint well:

7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

James also goes on to say that there are many offenses.

James 3:1(KJV) My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

James 3:2(KJV) For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

James 3:8(KJV) 8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

 

[CORE]

hey Edward, the fact is that God does see a difference in sin...I've provided plenty of examples. This fact unfortunately leads people to minimize their sin, but thats their problem and God will judge them for it...We can't just lie and say all sin is equal in the site of God just so people take their sin more seriously - that is a distortion of scripture which is one of the more severe sins...it's false teaching.

Now even though I say it's false teaching, this type of false teaching is either done out of ignorance or "good intention." Do you think that ignorant false teaching is held in the same regard as deliberate false teaching intended to lead others astray?

Brother, I think that perhaps you misunderstood my post. I am in total agreement with you. I almost quoted you in my post, because you stated it so well. Better than I did perhaps. I do believe that God sees a difference in sins, with my point being that we, as believers should not see a difference in sin because that leads us down a slippery slope. Our minds are too feeble to be able to grasp good enough judgment to accomplish any sort of righteousness. It is up to God alone to discern and mete out punishment for different severities of our sins for He is the judge, not us. Ours is to merely obey all and to see all sin as leading unto death. I hope that makes sense.

I'm sorry...I did misread your post to my embarrassment, lol...I practically reiterated your response. That's what I get for skimming through the replies without due diligence. I hate it when people do that to me, and here I am doing the same.

 

[jasoncran]

yes, but the atonement for all sins save one is the blood shed on the cross!

 

[Randy]

The one who is born of God will not continue to sin. So John seems to have had a scale in his judgment.

That leaves room for a argument on what is still sin (wrong doing) to a Christian.

(sexual immorality, breaking the commandments (9 of 10) Jesus, the Lord of the sabbath, stated the sabbath was made for man not the other way around. Paul also wrote about such things in Colossians 2:16

Though the commandments are fulfilled in keeping Jesus's commands to Love God with all your heart and Love one another. (remain in Him)

To answer your question in a different light God resists the proud (those that are proud in their innermost thoughts) and gives grace to the humble.

Randy

Randy, zero believers ever become 'sinless' so the convenient term 'continue' is a misnomer, as in 'well, I only sinned this particular sin a few times and then didn't anymore.'

We all 'have' sin as a present tense occupation of indwelling sin ala Romans 7. Whenever we do good, we are exactly as Paul was, we factually have 'evil present' with us.

Paul divided himself from that working, even while having it. That is also 'how' John saw this matter as well. As believers we understand the difference between ourselves and the internal working presence of EVIL.

Many believers hit the wall on this matter and just can not understand that sin is a continuing presence that is not us.

s

I disagree in a certain context. I know many kind and compassionate Christians. I would be hard pressed to find them sinful. I still think its a matter of defining what is sin. I do agree if we strain out a gnat we can find sin in every christian however I do believe we can abstain from sexual immorality and keep the commandments which are fulfilled in the Lords command to love one another.

R.

 

[smaller]

The one who is born of God will not continue to sin. So John seems to have had a scale in his judgment.

That leaves room for a argument on what is still sin (wrong doing) to a Christian.

(sexual immorality, breaking the commandments (9 of 10) Jesus, the Lord of the sabbath, stated the sabbath was made for man not the other way around. Paul also wrote about such things in Colossians 2:16

Though the commandments are fulfilled in keeping Jesus's commands to Love God with all your heart and Love one another. (remain in Him)

To answer your question in a different light God resists the proud (those that are proud in their innermost thoughts) and gives grace to the humble.

Randy

Randy, zero believers ever become 'sinless' so the convenient term 'continue' is a misnomer, as in 'well, I only sinned this particular sin a few times and then didn't anymore.'

We all 'have' sin as a present tense occupation of indwelling sin ala Romans 7. Whenever we do good, we are exactly as Paul was, we factually have 'evil present' with us.

Paul divided himself from that working, even while having it. That is also 'how' John saw this matter as well. As believers we understand the difference between ourselves and the internal working presence of EVIL.

Many believers hit the wall on this matter and just can not understand that sin is a continuing presence that is not us.

s

I disagree in a certain context. I know many kind and compassionate Christians. I would be hard pressed to find them sinful.

If you are looking at matters of sin solely from an external sense then yes, I can see why you would see that way.

That is not for example, how Paul showed himself to us, factually:

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Paul didn't pull our legs on this matter. He is truthful. Even when doing good he still had the red to contend with, always.

This fact is not something we can derive simply by looking at the 'exterior' of the cup. (the mistake the Pharisees made and used as well, only looking on the outside and painting up the TOMB real nice with pretty whitewash.)

I still think its a matter of defining what is sin.

Jesus does a fine job on that showing that the mere THOUGHT of evil was defiling and as defiling, is also SIN.

That is also how Paul figured out 'his factual' condition of 'evil present' with him, ALWAYS in present contentions, at a minimum, INTERNALLY.

Again just looking at the outside is not going to yield up the facts of these matters.

s

 

[stovebolts]

[MENTION=88699]Jethro Bodine[/MENTION]

You may enjoy this thread.
http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=38651&highlight=willful+sinning

I think a good place to start is Paul in 1 Timothy 1:12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service. 13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

We see here that Paul admits breaking some pretty major parts of the Law. But I want you to note that he did so out of ignorance and unbelief. Because he did so out of ignorance and unbelief, we see how God responded to his sin. Simply put, we can remember the road to Damascus where Saul had his encounter with our Lord and here Paul is describing the encounter as grace being poured out abundantly.

Why? Because Paul repented of his evil once he was made aware of it. This is key. If Paul would have kept sinning once his eyes were opened, he would have been set for destruction.

Later in Chapter 4 he says this

1 Timothy 4:4 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

A few verses later he states:

1 Timothy 4:6 If you point these things out to the brothers and sisters,[a] you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. 7 Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives’ tales; rather, train yourself to be godly. 8 For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.

What we can see from these verses is that there will be those who abandon their faith and as such, will loose the promise for both this life and the life to come.

What we can learn from this is that God treats sins differently. There are sins that are committed in ignorance and disbelief and God will respond with mercy and love. However, when one sins willfully God doesn't always respond with mercy and grace. Sometimes he even responds in judgment.

Where does Paul get this idea from though? No doubt he gets it from the Torah.

Take a look at Leviticus 4 for starters. Notice how unintentional sin is dealt with.
Now look at Leviticus 26:23 “‘If in spite of these things you do not accept my correction but continue to be hostile toward me, 24 I myself will be hostile toward you and will afflict you for your sins seven times over.

Perhaps this is why the Hebrew writer states: Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[Randy]

If you are looking at matters of sin solely from an external sense then yes, I can see why you would see that way.

That is not for example, how Paul showed himself to us, factually:

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Paul didn't pull our legs on this matter. He is truthful. Even when doing good he still had the red to contend with, always.

This fact is not something we can derive simply by looking at the 'exterior' of the cup. (the mistake the Pharisees made and used as well, only looking on the outside and painting up the TOMB real nice with pretty whitewash.)

I still think its a matter of defining what is sin.

Jesus does a fine job on that showing that the mere THOUGHT of evil was defiling and as defiling, is also SIN.

That is also how Paul figured out 'his factual' condition of 'evil present' with him, ALWAYS in present contentions, at a minimum, INTERNALLY.

Again just looking at the outside is not going to yield up the facts of these matters.

s

So you don't see a difference between those in this world that don't belong to Jesus and those that do belong to Jesus as John did? (Christ in Us) As I wrote its going to come down to how you define "sin". A good tree doesn't bear bad fruit. A loving caring Christian is a good condition to be in.

Randy

 

[Deborah13]

Jesus does a fine job on that showing that the mere THOUGHT of evil was defiling and as defiling, is also SIN.

That is also how Paul figured out 'his factual' condition of 'evil present' with him, ALWAYS in present contentions, at a minimum, INTERNALLY.

Again just looking at the outside is not going to yield up the facts of these matters.

I agree.

I think that when we think about "is there a difference in sins" we can't just consider that one point. We always end up immediately looking at the penalties of that sin. The consequences which is a different thing, I think.

If one lusts that is defilement 'sin' and so some will say that is not as bad as actually doing something about it. How so? Sin is sin. But the consequences and the penalties can be quite different. If they act on it they are now deliberating rebelling against God, different penalties and consequences.

So sometimes we see it as children do. If I do this I won't be in as much trouble as if I did that and hey at least I don't behave like Joe Shmoe. I think this was James point in "if you've broken one you've broken them all". Sin is sin. And we are All guilty.

 

[smaller]

So you don't see a difference between those in this world that don't belong to Jesus and those that do belong to Jesus as John did?

You mean 'our sins' as believers being somehow 'better?'

Uh, no. If anything I'd see it as Paul did for himself, even worse.

(Christ in Us) As I wrote its going to come down to how you define "sin". A good tree doesn't bear bad fruit. A loving caring Christian is a good condition to be in.

Randy

If the 'bad fruit' is sin from a 'bad tree,' then everybody has bad fruit and from a bad tree.

There is a strong christian tendency to 'excuse' our sins while we leap upon the sins of others. I'm not a fan of that general methodology. It's hypocritical. Jesus warned us not to 'go there' either.

Better to simply be honest about sin and not try to 'cover it up' or 'excuse' it with Grace or feigned/phony 'legal obedience.'

s

 

[smaller]

I agree.

I think that when we think about "is there a difference in sins" we can't just consider that one point. We always end up immediately looking at the penalties of that sin. The consequences which is a different thing, I think.

If one lusts that is defilement 'sin' and so some will say that is not as bad as actually doing something about it. How so? Sin is sin. But the consequences and the penalties can be quite different. If they act on it they are now deliberating rebelling against God, different penalties and consequences.

So sometimes we see it as children do. If I do this I won't be in as much trouble as if I did that and hey at least I don't behave like Joe Shmoe. I think this was James point in "if you've broken one you've broken them all". Sin is sin. And we are All guilty.

No denying that fact.

Most christians fail to consider their own sins as 'of the devil.'

Why should we let the devil off the hook for 'our' sins?

I see no need to excuse my internal enemy for any reason and I don't think Jesus will do so either.

s

 

[Deborah13]

I see no need to excuse my internal enemy for any reason and I don't think Jesus will do so either.

I think that has been done, predetermined.

John 16:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

The last name my grandson gave him while praying for me was "you stinky, rotten fish". A healthy disdain for the beast and his ways.

 

[Randy]

So you don't see a difference between those in this world that don't belong to Jesus and those that do belong to Jesus as John did?

You mean 'our sins' as believers being somehow 'better?'

Uh, no. If anything I'd see it as Paul did for himself, even worse.

(Christ in Us) As I wrote its going to come down to how you define "sin". A good tree doesn't bear bad fruit. A loving caring Christian is a good condition to be in.

Randy

If the 'bad fruit' is sin from a 'bad tree,' then everybody has bad fruit and from a bad tree.

There is a strong christian tendency to 'excuse' our sins while we leap upon the sins of others. I'm not a fan of that general methodology. It's hypocritical. Jesus warned us not to 'go there' either.

Better to simply be honest about sin and not try to 'cover it up' or 'excuse' it with Grace or feigned/phony 'legal obedience.'

s

I am not speaking of covering anything up. I am speaking of a people who live like believers. (Christ Like)

Indeed true salvation should show those signs in people as John wrote in 1 John (not me).

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God."

Zacchaeus was a person who showed a sign of true salvation (per Jesus)

We have everything we need (Christ in us) to live as God directs us. (many do)

R.

 

[smaller]

So you don't see a difference between those in this world that don't belong to Jesus and those that do belong to Jesus as John did?

You mean 'our sins' as believers being somehow 'better?'

Uh, no. If anything I'd see it as Paul did for himself, even worse.

(Christ in Us) As I wrote its going to come down to how you define "sin". A good tree doesn't bear bad fruit. A loving caring Christian is a good condition to be in.

Randy

If the 'bad fruit' is sin from a 'bad tree,' then everybody has bad fruit and from a bad tree.

There is a strong christian tendency to 'excuse' our sins while we leap upon the sins of others. I'm not a fan of that general methodology. It's hypocritical. Jesus warned us not to 'go there' either.

Better to simply be honest about sin and not try to 'cover it up' or 'excuse' it with Grace or feigned/phony 'legal obedience.'

s

I am not speaking of covering anything up. I am speaking of a people who live like believers. (Christ Like)

Indeed true salvation should show those signs in people as John wrote in 1 John (not me).

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God."

Zacchaeus was a person who showed a sign of true salvation (per Jesus)

We have everything we need (Christ in us) to live as God directs us. (many do)

R.

Are you still trying to say that Christian sin is better than unbeliever sin?

Not really sure what you are trying to get at above.

s

 

[Randy]

The one who is born of God will not continue to sin. So John seems to have had a scale in his judgment.

That leaves room for a argument on what is still sin (wrong doing) to a Christian.

(sexual immorality, breaking the commandments (9 of 10) Jesus, the Lord of the sabbath, stated the sabbath was made for man not the other way around. Paul also wrote about such things in Colossians 2:16

Though the commandments are fulfilled in keeping Jesus's commands to Love God with all your heart and Love one another. (remain in Him)

To answer your question in a different light God resists the proud (those that are proud in their innermost thoughts) and gives grace to the humble.

Randy

Randy, zero believers ever become 'sinless' so the convenient term 'continue' is a misnomer, as in 'well, I only sinned this particular sin a few times and then didn't anymore.'

We all 'have' sin as a present tense occupation of indwelling sin ala Romans 7. Whenever we do good, we are exactly as Paul was, we factually have 'evil present' with us.

Paul divided himself from that working, even while having it. That is also 'how' John saw this matter as well. As believers we understand the difference between ourselves and the internal working presence of EVIL.

Many believers hit the wall on this matter and just can not understand that sin is a continuing presence that is not us.

s

I think maybe zero hit the Perfection and Love Jesus taught "all the time" like Jesus did. But thats not what I see as sin. (sin is sin) I see that mark as Perfection training. (Loving others as Jesus did) But as John wrote the one born of God won't continue to sin. As far as inward the One in us is greater then the one in this world.

Randy

 

[Elijah674]

The one who is born of God will not continue to sin. So John seems to have had a scale in his judgment.

That leaves room for a argument on what is still sin (wrong doing) to a Christian.

(sexual immorality, breaking the commandments (9 of 10) Jesus, the Lord of the sabbath, stated the sabbath was made for man not the other way around. Paul also wrote about such things in Colossians 2:16

Though the commandments are fulfilled in keeping Jesus's commands to Love God with all your heart and Love one another. (remain in Him)

To answer your question in a different light God resists the proud (those that are proud in their innermost thoughts) and gives grace to the humble.

Randy

Randy, zero believers ever become 'sinless' so the convenient term 'continue' is a misnomer, as in 'well, I only sinned this particular sin a few times and then didn't anymore.'

We all 'have' sin as a present tense occupation of indwelling sin ala Romans 7. Whenever we do good, we are exactly as Paul was, we factually have 'evil present' with us.

Paul divided himself from that working, even while having it. That is also 'how' John saw this matter as well. As believers we understand the difference between ourselves and the internal working presence of EVIL.

Many believers hit the wall on this matter and just can not understand that sin is a continuing presence that is not us.

s

I think maybe zero hit the Perfection and Love Jesus taught "all the time" like Jesus did. But thats not what I see as sin. (sin is sin) I see that mark as Perfection training. (Loving others as Jesus did) But as John wrote the one born of God won't continue to sin. As far as inward the One in us is greater then the one in this world.

Randy

The Problem is not what Christ God will do, but what WE choose to do. (got that?)

There is a starting of sin (any sin) and its FINISHED state. James 1:15 Then 'when lust has conceived' it bringeth forth 'sin': and when it IS FINISHED IT BRINGETH FORTH DEATH.

Now after saying that, how much better can one be as seen in Rom. 8:1?? So in bottom line it is required of God to always stay in Christ. How so??? That is what Sanctification is all about. We come to a point in our life of KNOWING more in growing up. What will be done with that? That is what being 'IN CHRIST' means, now we are required to FOLLOW ON TO PERFECTION. Rom. 8:14
(and yes all ten commandments James 8-12)

--Elijah

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Most christians fail to consider their own sins as 'of the devil.'

Why should we let the devil off the hook for 'our' sins?

It is no longer 'you', but sin living in you.

"16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me." (Romans 7: NASB)

"7 Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. " (Romans 7: NASB)


There's a big difference between those who sin because that's what they (still) are by nature, and those who are by the nature of Christ new creations but sin anyway. It's entirely incorrect to somehow equate the sins of unregenerate sinners and the sins of believers. But I know, it's one of the hardest things to try to explain to unbelievers who don't have the new nature.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Are you still trying to say that Christian sin is better than unbeliever sin?

Not really sure what you are trying to get at above.

s

'Christian' sin is not truly representative of who the Christian is, while the sin of the unbeliever is representative of who they are.

That's the point Paul was trying to make. His exhortation is to live up to what you really are, not what you used to be.

 

[Randy]

Are you still trying to say that Christian sin is better than unbeliever sin?

Not really sure what you are trying to get at above.

s

'Christian' sin is not truly representative of who the Christian is, while the sin of the unbeliever is representative of who they are.

That's the point Paul was trying to make. His exhortation is to live up to what you really are, not what you used to be.

So its not "by their fruit you will recognize them?"

I think the one born of God will NOT continue to sin. Sin is Sin. A Christian is freed by Jesus from the power of sin. (If anyone has the Spirit of Christ in them they are a new creation) And in that we can live as directed by scripture. (Love one another, abstain from sexual immorality, Love God)

Randy

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So sometimes we see it as children do. If I do this I won't be in as much trouble as if I did that and hey at least I don't behave like Joe Shmoe.

I disagree because if Joe Shmoe is an unbeliever he is sinning because that's exactly what he is by nature. Not true for the believer. The sinning Christian is acting contrary to his nature.

I think this was James point in "if you've broken one you've broken them all". Sin is sin. And we are All guilty.

I firmly resist this interpretation of James' teaching that literally says if I commit murder, I'm also guilty of adultery. That's crazy (but what murderer should really argue the point anyway, lol)

The point he is trying to make is if you want to consider yourself a 'law keeper' (remember he's speaking to a first century audience) you can't do that if you've left some part of the law undone. It's like saying you're a law abiding citizen while you drive over the speed limit, or don't stop completely at stop signs.

You can not boast of being a 'law keeper' without keeping all the law says to do. In the case of James' audience they may have had a boast in regard to the Ten Commandments (many people have this boast) but they left the royal law in scripture undone by disobeying the law to not show favoritism. That doesn't mean they are guilty of things they really didn't do. It means they are law breakers--transgressors of the law:

"Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law." (James 2:11 NASB)


Unbelievers love to exploit this injustice of God we Christians erroneously say is in the scriptures. In the case of unbelievers, the proper use of James' teaching is to show them that the good things they love to point out as being to their credit still does not qualify them as a keeper of God's requirements. They remain guilty as law breakers for what they have done, or left undone, and are under the wrath of God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Are you still trying to say that Christian sin is better than unbeliever sin?

Not really sure what you are trying to get at above.

s

'Christian' sin is not truly representative of who the Christian is, while the sin of the unbeliever is representative of who they are.

That's the point Paul was trying to make. His exhortation is to live up to what you really are, not what you used to be.

So its not "by their fruit you will recognize them?"

I think the one born of God will NOT continue to sin. Sin is Sin. A Christian is freed by Jesus from the power of sin. (If anyone has the Spirit of Christ in them they are a new creation) And in that we can live as directed by scripture. (Love one another, abstain from sexual immorality, Love God)

Randy

It is 'by their fruit you will recognize them'.

But to think that this means true Christians don't commit adultery, or fornicate, or steal is to either not know what scripture says about that, or to not have been a Christian long enough to know the very real temptations and failures that lie ahead for even the most sincere and devoted Christian longing to live for God.

I learned a big lesson from the oak trees my brother planted in the yard behind my house. It took 13 long years for them to have acorns. Did they become oak trees in their thirteenth year? Of course not. It took that long for them to come to maturity, but they were oak trees, nonetheless, that entire time. It took time to see the evidence that proved what they really were. So it is with the plantings of God. It isn't until the planting forms a head of grain that we can know if someone really is a stalk of wheat or a deceitful tare (Matthew 13:25-26 NASB), but that doesn't mean they were all tares before the head developed.

The outward working of the fruit of the Spirit is the mature growth of the believer. What God has transformed into a planting of God is fact, whether that planting is producing visible fruit or not. It's what you are developing into, and what you are in the end, that determines if you are a planting of God:

"7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned." (Hebrews 6:7-8 NASB)

Judge nothing before it's time.

"It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God." (1 Corinthians 4:4-5 NASB)

This doesn't mean we can't make educated judgments about whom we will consider a brother or sister, and who we will not. It means leave the eternal destiny of others to God. It's the difference between healthy discernment and condemnation. Condemning others is what we are not supposed to do. Discerning what others are right now is what we are supposed to do. We have that God given right and responsibility. Fruit is in fact how we are to do that.