In John 5:25-29 Jesus confirmed the dead will have a chance to obey His voice while still in the grave

[Alfred Persson]

Where?

Of course.
Your claims are false.

It is your doctrine that allows men to sin right up to death and then have yet another chance after death to repent.
It is unbiblical and makes no sense.

I am still living, so can do just that.
I can't ask for forgiveness after I am dead.

Nope.
Things can be done in this life that cannot be done in the after life.

Do it in this life time.
You won't get a chance to do it later.

This is pointless. You refuse to engage the scriptures I cited, or make a cogent logical argument with premises and a conclusion that could be debated.

Its obvious what your opinion is, no one needs to see it endlessly repeated. Certainly not me. I won't be replying to you UNLESS you do more than express an opinion.

 

[Hopeful]

Just the opposite, I prove EVERYONE born since the foundation of the world is saved ONLY because of Christ's sacrifice. I made His suffering and death 100% necessary for ANYONE to be saved.

How is it worth anything if one can continue in sin and still have a chance after death of eternal life?

 

[Hopeful]

This is pointless. You refuse to engage the scriptures I cited, or make a cogent logical argument with premises and a conclusion that could be debate.

Its obvious what your opinion is, no needs it endless repeated.

You don't interpret scripture correctly.
Death then judgement. (Heb 9:27)
Then, penalty or reward.

 

[Alfred Persson]

You don't interpret scripture correctly.
Death then judgement. (Heb 9:27)
Then, penalty or reward.

You want to change opinion, but don't know how. Endlessly repeating your beliefs will never do it.

Try learning how to prove you are right:

A Rulebook for Arguments Fifth Edition, 5​

by Anthony Weston (Author)


From academic writing to personal and public discourse, the need for good arguments and better ways of arguing is greater than ever before.

This timely fifth edition of A Rulebook for Arguments sharpens an already-classic text, adding updated examples and a new chapter on public debates that provides rules for the etiquette and ethics of sound public dialogue as well as clear and sound thinking in general.

https://www.amazon.com/Rulebook-Arguments-Anthony-Weston/dp/162466654X

 

[Alfred Persson]

Are you unaware that those are the very ones verse 6 is referring to sir? We of course disagree Alfred, as you admitted. I side with God who stated sin brings forth death sir, and I agree with His explanation that the dead know nothing.

It just occurred to me, the main obstacle to critically thinking to discern truth. I colored every fact with "which side" it came from. If not from "my side" the "fact" was ignored. I didn't even consider it, I was too busy thinking about my next "proof".

The definition of "death" isn't from any side, its in scripture. God promised Adam "in the day you eat" you will die. He ate, therefore died "that day."

"Their eyes were opened" is like saying "the door was opened to darkness, evil". Then evil became part of their thinking:

Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. (Gen. 6:5 NKJ)

Then they realized they were "naked" because they were outside the Holy Presence of God, their fallen nature was sinful.

They died spiritually when their "eyes were opened and their thoughts became wicked, evil continually because of their fallen nature.

That is the Bible's definition of "death".

Its not from Christendom, and pagan belief, Babylon the Great.

Its from the text of the Bible.


I hope you reconsider the "facts" not coloring them with "who you heard it from," read the Bible yourself. Its there.

 

[Highway54]

No, you side with those who define death differently than the Bible. Adam and Eve died the very instant they ate of the tree, spiritually. Then their "eyes were opened" and they became ashamed of their sin:

So "death" is separation from the presence of God:

6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.
7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.
8 And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. (Gen. 3:6-8 NKJ)

Death is not non-existence, its separation from life.

Eternal life exists only in God and all separated from Him are dead, even if they are physically alive:

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, (Jn. 5:24-26 NKJ)

No, you side with those who define death differently than the Bible. Adam and Eve died the very instant they ate of the tree, spiritually. Then their "eyes were opened" and they became ashamed of their sin:

I do not disagree with this sir, they did, but we are not discussing that, we are discussing literal visible death, the Bible teaches very clearly nothing lives on, satan said they would not die, but God said they would. You have chosen your side, same as I. I personally recommend Jehovah's explanation over satans sir

 

[Alfred Persson]

I do not disagree with this sir, they did, but we are not discussing that, we are discussing literal visible death, the Bible teaches very clearly nothing lives on, satan said they would not die, but God said they would. You have chosen your side, same as I. I personally recommend Jehovah's explanation over satans sir

You got backwards, they died when they ate, and that spiritual death is followed by a physical death. Satan said they would not die when they ate, and THAT you agree with. You are not believing God at all.

 

[Hopeful]

Just the opposite, I prove EVERYONE born since the foundation of the world is saved ONLY because of Christ's sacrifice. I made His suffering and death 100% necessary for ANYONE to be saved.

No use for repentance or baptism then...eh?
How devilish is that?

 

[Hopeful]

This is pointless. You refuse to engage the scriptures I cited, or make a cogent logical argument with premises and a conclusion that could be debated.

Its obvious what your opinion is, no one needs to see it endlessly repeated. Certainly not me. I won't be replying to you UNLESS you do more than express an opinion.

Your points are not of God, and deserve only push back.

 

[Hopeful]

You want to change opinion, but don't know how. Endlessly repeating your beliefs will never do it.

Try learning how to prove you are right:

A Rulebook for Arguments Fifth Edition, 5​

by Anthony Weston (Author)


From academic writing to personal and public discourse, the need for good arguments and better ways of arguing is greater than ever before.

This timely fifth edition of A Rulebook for Arguments sharpens an already-classic text, adding updated examples and a new chapter on public debates that provides rules for the etiquette and ethics of sound public dialogue as well as clear and sound thinking in general.

https://www.amazon.com/Rulebook-Arguments-Anthony-Weston/dp/162466654X

I take no advice from those who serve sin.

 

[Alfred Persson]

11 "Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake.
12 "Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. (Matt. 5:11-12 NKJ)

 

[Highway54]

You got backwards, they died when they ate, and that spiritual death is followed by a physical death. Satan said they would not die when they ate, and THAT you agree with. You are not believing God at all.

You got backwards, they died when they ate, and that spiritual death is followed by a physical death.

Yes sir I fully agree they died spiritually (lost their relationship with God) when they ate, and later they literally died.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Yes sir I fully agree they died spiritually (lost their relationship with God) when they ate, and later they literally died.

Yes, we agree about the various aspects of death, but you claim souls die when the body dies, that it was that kind of death God said would happen to Adam and Eve.

To make that "true" you change the meaning of "day" to refer to a long period of time.

But context reveals it is idiom and means "immediately when you eat you will die spiritually because you will no longer exist in "God's presence".

2 And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden;
3 "but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said,`You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.'"
4 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die.
5 "For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.
7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.
8 And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. (Gen. 3:2-8 NKJ)

Right after they ate they died and in the realm of spiritual death "their eyes were opened to the evil raging in their fallen nature".

How shameful their naked bodies now were compared to the holiness they once had when spiritually alive in God's presence:

It was "spiritual death/separation from God's presence" He said they would die after they ate, not death of their souls HUNDREDS OF YEARS LATER:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. (1 Cor. 15:22 NKJ)

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, (Eph. 2:1-2 NKJ)

 

[Highway54]

Yes, we agree about the various aspects of death, but you claim souls die when the body dies, that it was that kind of death God said would happen to Adam and Eve.

To make that "true" you change the meaning of "day" to refer to a long period of time.

But context reveals it is idiom and means "immediately when you eat you will die spiritually because you will no longer exist in "God's presence".

2 And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden;
3 "but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said,`You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.'"
4 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die.
5 "For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.
7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.
8 And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. (Gen. 3:2-8 NKJ)

Right after they ate they died and in the realm of spiritual death "their eyes were opened to the evil raging in their fallen nature".

How shameful their naked bodies now were compared to the holiness they once had when spiritually alive in God's presence:

It was "spiritual death/separation from God's presence" He said they would die after they ate, not death of their souls HUNDREDS OF YEARS LATER:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. (1 Cor. 15:22 NKJ)

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, (Eph. 2:1-2 NKJ)

As I stated Adam and Eve lost their relationship with God at the moment of sin, their spiritual death. They literally died within God's day, which the Bible reveals to be 1000 yrs. You can debate that all you want, but that is the way I believe it is sir.

 

[Alfred Persson]

As I stated Adam and Eve lost their relationship with God at the moment of sin, their spiritual death. They literally died within God's day, which the Bible reveals to be 1000 yrs. You can debate that all you want, but that is the way I believe it is sir.

Lets move on. Jonah likened his being in the belly of a big fish to being in Sheol:

1 Then Jonah prayed to the LORD his God from the fish’s belly.
2 And he said: “I cried out to the LORD because of my affliction, And He answered me. “Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, And You heard my voice.
3 For You cast me into the deep, Into the heart of the seas, And the floods surrounded me; All Your billows and Your waves passed over me.
4 Then I said,`I have been cast out of Your sight; Yet I will look again toward Your holy temple.’
5 The waters surrounded me, even to my soul; The deep closed around me; Weeds were wrapped around my head.
6 I went down to the moorings of the mountains; The earth with its bars closed behind me forever; Yet You have brought up my life from the pit, O LORD, my God.
7 “When my soul fainted within me, I remembered the LORD; And my prayer went up to You, Into Your holy temple.
8 “Those who regard worthless idols Forsake their own Mercy.
9 But I will sacrifice to You With the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay what I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.” (Jon. 2:1-9 NKJ)

He is praying to Jehovah. How could he insult God with pagan belief about his soul being in Sheol?

About a soul living after physical death in Sheol, able to plead for mercy?

No one would appear before a great king and babble nonsense, especially if seeking his help.

Was Jonah insulting God with pagan myth, which is what you must conclude if the Watchtower is right about soul death when the body dies?

Isn't it more plausible, given Jonah is a prophet, he did believe souls in Sheol could cry out to God to be redeemed?

Therefore, likening his time in the fish's belly to his soul being in Sheol was a respectful acknowledgement "Salvation is of the LORD" even from hell itself.

 

[Highway54]

Lets move on. Jonah likened his being in the belly of a big fish to being in Sheol:

1 Then Jonah prayed to the LORD his God from the fish’s belly.
2 And he said: “I cried out to the LORD because of my affliction, And He answered me. “Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, And You heard my voice.
3 For You cast me into the deep, Into the heart of the seas, And the floods surrounded me; All Your billows and Your waves passed over me.
4 Then I said,`I have been cast out of Your sight; Yet I will look again toward Your holy temple.’
5 The waters surrounded me, even to my soul; The deep closed around me; Weeds were wrapped around my head.
6 I went down to the moorings of the mountains; The earth with its bars closed behind me forever; Yet You have brought up my life from the pit, O LORD, my God.
7 “When my soul fainted within me, I remembered the LORD; And my prayer went up to You, Into Your holy temple.
8 “Those who regard worthless idols Forsake their own Mercy.
9 But I will sacrifice to You With the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay what I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.” (Jon. 2:1-9 NKJ)

He is praying to Jehovah. How could he insult God with pagan belief about his soul being in Sheol?

About a soul living after physical death in Sheol, able to plead for mercy?

No one would appear before a great king and babble nonsense, especially if seeking his help.

Was Jonah insulting God with pagan myth, which is what you must conclude if the Watchtower is right about soul death when the body dies?

Isn't it more plausible, given Jonah is a prophet, he did believe souls in Sheol could cry out to God to be redeemed?

Therefore, likening his time in the fish's belly to his soul being in Sheol was a respectful acknowledgement "Salvation is of the LORD" even from hell itself.

I see your evidence and understand why you feel the way you do. I believe it happened, but I don't really believe that Jonah was dead Alfred. Jesus said that like Jonah he too would be in the belly of hell for 3 days, but I do believe he was dead. The Bible does not state that God resurrected Jonah, but it does state He resurrected Jesus. Jonah did pray to God while in the fish as you stated, but Jesus did not. That will have to be one of those things answered during the thousand years I guess, because I sure don't know.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I see your evidence and understand why you feel the way you do. I believe it happened, but I don't really believe that Jonah was dead Alfred. Jesus said that like Jonah he too would be in the belly of hell for 3 days, but I do believe he was dead. The Bible does not state that God resurrected Jonah, but it does state He resurrected Jesus. Jonah did pray to God while in the fish as you stated, but Jesus did not. That will have to be one of those things answered during the thousand years I guess, because I sure don't know.

No one in their right mind would pray to Jehovah praising Him using falsehood as imagery.

Therefore, souls crying out from sheol is figuratively what Jonah did, and he could say that because souls literally cry out to God from Sheol.

Its not falsehood.

 

[Highway54]

No one in their right mind would pray to Jehovah praising Him using falsehood as imagery.

Therefore, souls crying out from sheol is figuratively what Jonah did, and he could say that because souls literally cry out to God from Sheol.

Its not falsehood.

Yes sir I too believe it was figuratively, anything else would be contradictory which would nullify the Bible as being from God.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Yes sir I too believe it was figuratively, anything else would be contradictory which would nullify the Bible as being from God.

Still evading the point. Jonah could not speak that way to God if it were not true, if God didn't rescuse souls from Sheol.

And you do NOT believe that. Like the Sadducees, you don't believe man has a soul.

 

[Highway54]

Still evading the point. Jonah could not speak that way to God if it were not true, if God didn't rescuse souls from Sheol.

And you do NOT believe that. Like the Sadducees, you don't believe man has a soul.

We have disagreed Alfred. We teach man is a soul, not have a soul.