Infant Immersion

[Doug Brents]

Water baptism is identifying with the “likeness“ of His death.

For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
Romans 6:5

If their is no believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead, then water baptism is useless.

It is believing in our heart, and confessing with our mouth, the way we are saved, not by water baptism.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

I believe have made my point.

If you believe we are saved by water baptism then so be it.

If you want me to show you the three different baptisms in the scriptures, I will be glad to.
JLB

Yes, if there is no belief, then the person immersed just gets wet.
No, if you just believe and confess, you are not saved, because you have not yet been buried with Him, nor have your sins been cut from you, nor have you been united with Christ's death or resurrection.

 

[Doug Brents]

And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’ Acts 22:16

Calling on the name of the Lord is how we are saved, and our sins are washed away by His blood.

Natural water does not wash away our sins.

Only the blood of Jesus washes away our sin.

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. Hebrews 10:4

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
John 1:29
JLB

I never said the water cleansed our sin. I said the Spirit does that in the water.

 

[Doug Brents]

I do believe I've said this before.
NO ONE on this forum believes, as some do, that we are saved when we mentally assent to the knowledge of Jesus.

We believe that we must be DISCIPLES of Christ in order to be saved.
If we are disciples of Christ...it means HE is our teacher and we follow His teachings.

As to baptism,,,I'm beginning to understand that it is IMMERSION that you're interested in...not baptism in and of itself. Am I wrong?

The word baptize/baptism/baptized etc. means immersion. When the NT says baptize the meaning is immersion. The translators of the KJV had the practice of sprinkling, and when they went to translate the Greek into English they ran into a problem. If they translated the word honestly, it would shed light on their unBiblical practice, and they would be put to shame. So they took the Greek word, made it something that sounded good in English, and defined the newly created word to mean whatever they wanted it to mean.

No, I am not interested in immersion for the sake of immersion. I am interested in us understanding, teaching, and practicing what the Bible says.

 

[Doug Brents]

I'm not sure why you're asking this but of course there is a difference. "Given for free" means there is no cost attached to the gift. "Freely given" means the giver isn't compelled to give.

Exactly. And salvation is freely given, not given for free. There are conditions attached to our receiving salvation.

 

[JLB]

No, if you just believe and confess, you are not saved

Well you have a problem then with Paul and Jesus.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


This thread is about infant baptism.


If you want to continue this line of dialog, then please start another thread, with the topic you desire.


I would suggest that you join the Soteriology Forum for members only and start what ever thread you like there.


I don’t want to continue this back and forth dialog, as it’s not conducive to unity.


I respect your beliefs and you are free to believe the way you were taught.

I don’t agree with small portions of your doctrine, but hey it’s ok, not too many people believe everything I believe.


Peace and blessing to you.



JLB

 

[JLB]

No, if you just believe and confess, you are not saved, because you have not yet been buried with Him, nor have your sins been cut from you, nor have you been united with Christ's death or resurrection.

This kind of talk is where you cross the line here at this Forum.

I appreciate your passion for your beliefs and we encourage you to be passionate, I know I am.


What we at CF.net won’t tolerate is conveying, conferring or insinuating that a person is not born again, or does not have their sins forgiven and removed because they have not been baptized In water.


Please consider this a soft warning and again, please start a thread in the Soteriology area, about water baptism, and teach it the way you believe, only it will be in a semi private area where you will have more freedom to express your beliefs away from the General Forum Area.


Thank you, and God bless.


Please pm if you like, to discuss further.




JLB

 

[JLB]

What purpose / function did the water serve?

To physically destroy all the wicked and animals that would not fit in the Ark.

 

[stovebolts]

JLB

As an FYI, here is the picture I was painting with Romans 6.

Looking back at Noah, according to Peter the water saved him, but from what?... Death? I don't think so because Noah was rightous and obedient to the Lord. However, we also know that Noah obeyed God and built the ark. Had Noah and his family not trusted the Lord, the water would have destroyed him and his family.

What then was the function of the water? Was it not to purge the world from sin?

Genesis 6:13 ASV

And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

So we see that Noah was saved by the water from the sin that permeated the world he lived in.

Now then, what was the function of the ark? Was it not a vessel that kept him from destruction?

When we look at Romans 6, the picture is that of death, burial and ressurection.

If we expand this picture, we understand that we are sinful, and we need a savior. Peter stepped out of the boat, took his eyes off Jesus and started to sink which would have caused his death. Jesus rescues Peter from the death which would have occured in the water. In this same way, God rescues Noah in the ark.

We are sinners and our old man must be put to death if we are to be born again because to be born again is to say the old man has died.

Jesus freely gave his life at the cross. Nobody took it. In the same way we need to pick up our cross which leads to death because without death, there is no resurrection.

Going to your death is a fearful thing. But we don't have to go it alone. Jesus is our Ark, Jesus is our salvation and when we go under the baptismal waters, our old man dies. We have nothing to fear because Jesus is with us in the waters. When the old man dies, we are brought back to a new life because we have shared in the death of Jesus and we share in the life of Jesus.

In part, this is a picture of bsptism and it can be a beautiful picture.

In Acts 2, the people are convicted of their sin. Their hearts are pricked and they want to eagerly make it right. Peter tells them to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins. I do not believe this is a command from Peter. Instead, it was an opportunity for Peter to be obedient to the great commission. Ironically, Jesus did not command anyone to be baptized. However, I do see every NT baptism as a response to the gospel.

In this same way, people respond to different parts of the gospel so it's natural that we would have varying accounts of folks being baptized.

Do I believe one must be baptized to be saved? No. But I would caution that if we are sharing our faith and the gospel, baptism will come up which will afford us to be obedient and baptize.

 

[JLB]

Do I believe one must be baptized to be saved? No. But I would caution that if we are sharing our faith and the gospel, baptism will come up which will afford us to be obedient and baptize.

Amen.

 

[GodsGrace]

The word baptize/baptism/baptized etc. means immersion. When the NT says baptize the meaning is immersion. The translators of the KJV had the practice of sprinkling, and when they went to translate the Greek into English they ran into a problem. If they translated the word honestly, it would shed light on their unBiblical practice, and they would be put to shame. So they took the Greek word, made it something that sounded good in English, and defined the newly created word to mean whatever they wanted it to mean.

No, I am not interested in immersion for the sake of immersion. I am interested in us understanding, teaching, and practicing what the Bible says.

What does the bible say about being baptized?
What is the point on which we do not agree?
I think we all agree that we need to be baptized.

I would say, however, that if I come to believe in God and desire to follow Him,
and I die before being baptized....I do believe I will see His face in heaven.

 

[stovebolts]

What does the bible say about being baptized?
What is the point on which we do not agree?
I think we all agree that we need to be baptized.

I would say, however, that if I come to believe in God and desire to follow Him,
and I die before being baptized....I do believe I will see His face in heaven.

While I won't speak for Doug or others, I have spent the last 23 years as an active member where I also served as Deacon in the church of Christ. My wife and I are no longer members.

There are those within the cofc that will draw a hard line in the sand over baptism. I remember sitting in a pew after the death of Mother Teresa where it was preached that she was in hell because she was baptized as an infant. Simply Appauling IMO... But I bring this up because there are some that absolutely believe this within the cofc. It must be noted that this is not a universal teaching in the cofc and the church is theologically divided in this issue.

I understand that I have a different view of Baptism from most on this site because my beliefs line up closer to cofc teachings than the other Protestant teachings, but my reasoning is you don't have to know how a tree grows just to dig a hole and plant it. Bottom line, have you been baptized? If not, why?

As far as infant baptism, I can't find that in scripture, but I do understand how people read scripture to justify it even though I disagree with it. However, being baptized as an infant does not disqualify one from salvation because a teacher will be judged harsher than a student.

.02

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

While I won't speak for Doug or others, I have spent the last 23 years as an active member where I also served as Deacon in the church of Christ. My wife and I are no longer members.

There are those within the cofc that will draw a hard line in the sand over baptism. I remember sitting in a pew after the death of Mother Teresa where it was preached that she was in hell because she was baptized as an infant. Simply Appauling IMO... But I bring this up because there are some that absolutely believe this within the cofc. It must be noted that this is not a universal teaching in the cofc and the church is theologically divided in this issue.

I understand that I have a different view of Baptism from most on this site because my beliefs line up closer to cofc teachings than the other Protestant teachings, but my reasoning is you don't have to know how a tree grows just to dig a hole and plant it. Bottom line, have you been baptized? If not, why?

As far as infant baptism, I can't find that in scripture, but I do understand how people read scripture to justify it even though I disagree with it. However, being baptized as an infant does not disqualify one from salvation because a teacher will be judged harsher than a student.

.02

With all due respect if water baptism is not that "hard line" then what is that hard line and who drew it?

 

[stovebolts]

With all due respect if water baptism is not that "hard line" then what is that hard line and who drew it?

Hi Ernest,
First, know that I have much respect for both your biblical knowledge and the way you conduct yourself. You are a model member and I appreciate your voice on this site.

You and I will find more common ground in the topic of baptism than you will with most other members as I hold the view that water baptism, if presented correctly plays a role in the security of our salvation. We will even agree that infant baptism is not a biblical practice.

So, just to be clear. Are you drawing a line and saying that a person who has devoted their life to God, and shows the fruits of the spirit are lost and destine to hell because they were sprinkled as a child (baptized) but not as an adult?

I just want to know the discussion were getting into.

Thanks.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Hi Ernest,
First, know that I have much respect for both your biblical knowledge and the way you conduct yourself. You are a model member and I appreciate your voice on this site.

You and I will find more common ground in the topic of baptism than you will with most other members as I hold the view that water baptism, if presented correctly plays a role in the security of our salvation. We will even agree that infant baptism is not a biblical practice.

So, just to be clear. Are you drawing a line and saying that a person who has devoted their life to God, and shows the fruits of the spirit are lost and destine to hell because they were sprinkled as a child (baptized) but not as an adult?

I just want to know the discussion were getting into.

Thanks.

Infants have no sin, therefore are not candidates for baptism since the purpose of baptism is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). Those who are accountable to God (Rom 7:8-9) that have sinned (transgressed God's law - 1 Jn 3:4), who are intellectually capable of having faith (Heb 11:6) are the only candidates for baptism.

So baptizing an infant is nothing, it does nothing, it's meaningless, it has no Bible basis. It's a false teaching based upon the false teaching of OS. It is not of Christ's doctrine 2 Jn 1:9-10. You posted; "We will even agree that infant baptism is not a biblical practice." How then can what is unbiblical, false, that is not of the doctrine of Christ save?

 

[stovebolts]

Infants have no sin, therefore are not candidates for baptism since the purpose of baptism is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). Those who are accountable to God (Rom 7:8-9) that have sinned (transgressed God's law - 1 Jn 3:4), who are intellectually capable of having faith (Heb 11:6) are the only candidates for baptism.

So baptizing an infant is nothing, it does nothing, it's meaningless, it has no Bible basis. It's a false teaching based upon the false teaching of OS. It is not of Christ's doctrine 2 Jn 1:9-10. You posted; "We will even agree that infant baptism is not a biblical practice." How then can what is unbiblical, false, that is not of the doctrine of Christ save?

We are in full agreement up until your last question. You'll get no argument from me until you draw a line that those baptized as infants will go to hell because they were not baptized as adults.


Again, and let your yes be yes and your no be no.
Are you drawing a hard line in the sand to say anyone, for any reason that has not been baptized as an adult is destine to hell.

This would include believers and worshippers of Christ who devoted their lives to Christ and the work of the Church but we're only baptized as infants

 

[WIP]

I look

We are in full agreement up until your last question. You'll get no argument from me until you draw a line that those baptized as infants will go to hell because they were not baptized as adults.


Again, and let your yes be yes and your no be no.
Are you drawing a hard line in the sand to say anyone, for any reason that has not been baptized as an adult is destine to hell.

This would include believers and worshippers of Christ who devoted their lives to Christ and the work of the Church but we're only baptized as infants

I see it this way. When we baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit we invoke the power of God and nothing can withstand that power.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

We are in full agreement up until your last question. You'll get no argument from me until you draw a line that those baptized as infants will go to hell because they were not baptized as adults.


Again, and let your yes be yes and your no be no.
Are you drawing a hard line in the sand to say anyone, for any reason that has not been baptized as an adult is destine to hell.

This would include believers and worshippers of Christ who devoted their lives to Christ and the work of the Church but we're only baptized as infants

Yes
1) infant baptism is not Biblical. You said as much yourself. False teachings do not save.
2) God has drawn the line in having chosen water baptism as the means by which He saves men. No baptism =lost. Cornelius was a just man, did many good works but was lost until he heard and obeyed the gospel. Many good people in the world but are lost until they obey the gospel of Christ (2 Thess 1:8).

Other people have drawn the line at "faith only". Everyone will have to decide what bed they will sleep in, so to speak, and on judgement day God will sort it all out.
-God's word is truth, (Jn 17:17) and truth never contradicts itself.
-Doctrine does matter, it separates the saved from the lost, (2 Jn 1:9-10).

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I look

I see it this way. When we baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit we invoke the power of God and nothing can withstand that power.

Baptism of the great commission requires baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost (Mt 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-16; Lk 24:48) yet infants are not part of the great commission.
Christianity is a taught religion with the great commission having disciples (learners) being made through teaching and baptizing. Infants do not have language skills, cognitive ability to be taught, to be a learner. These new disciples are also to 'observe all things' Christ commanded. Again infants cannot do this. "The phrase 'in the name of' means by the authority of and Christ never authorized the baptism of infants.

The OT prophesied about the Christ and the NT covenant. One of these prophesies (Jer 31) is referenced in Hebrews 8:6-13;
"But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."

One must first be taught and know the Lord before entering this NT covenant. Under the OT, physical birth into a Jewish family put one into the OT covenant relationship with God. To enter the NT covenant requires first be taught (Mt 28:19-20; Rom 10:17) then one can be spiritually born into this covenant with a circumcision made without hands (Col 2).
This excludes infants

Acts 16:32 " And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house."
This excludes infants even "IF" there were any infants in the house to begin with. God draws men by His word, when men have been "taught" "heard" and "learned" (Jn 6:44-45). Infants therefore are not drawn to God, do not come to Christ for they are in innocent safe state. The accountable adults (jailer) was the ones 'drawn', who was taught, heard and learned and wilfully chose to come to Christ (Acts 16:33) as seen by repentance (Lk 13:3) and being baptized (Mk 16:16) cf Lk 6:46.

 

[jaybo]

Yes
1) infant baptism is not Biblical. You said as much yourself. False teachings do not save.
2) God has drawn the line in having chosen water baptism as the means by which He saves men. No baptism =lost. Cornelius was a just man, did many good works but was lost until he heard and obeyed the gospel. Many good people in the world but are lost until they obey the gospel of Christ (2 Thess 1:8).

Other people have drawn the line at "faith only". Everyone will have to decide what bed they will sleep in, so to speak, and on judgement day God will sort it all out.
-God's word is truth, (Jn 17:17) and truth never contradicts itself.
-Doctrine does matter, it separates the saved from the lost, (2 Jn 1:9-10).

"God has drawn the line in having chosen water baptism as the means by which He saves men" is absolutely wrong. John 3:16, " For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life."

" For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

The ritual of baptism does save anyone. If an unbeliever is baptized s/he is not saved by that rite.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

"God has drawn the line in having chosen water baptism as the means by which He saves men" is absolutely wrong. John 3:16, " For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life."

" For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

The ritual of baptism does save anyone. If an unbeliever is baptized s/he is not saved by that rite.

--Jn 3:16 is not the only verse in the Bible that deals with salvation. In examining the 'whole counsel of God' (Acts 20:27) we find that repentance (Luke 13:3) confession (Mt 10:32-33; Romans 10:9-10) and baptism (Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38) are just as essential as belief. Jesus did NOT say "he that believeth only" in Jn 3:16 for such a statement would contradict what Jesus said in Lk 13:3; Mt 10:32-33; Mark 16:16. Since the Bible does not contradict itself, then it must be understood that "believeth" in Jn 3:16 is used as a synecdoche, a part for the whole. That is "believeth" includes repentance, confession and baptism. In 1 Pet 3:21 Peter says baptism saves but "baptism alone" does not save. Here baptism is used as a synecdoche where it includes belief repentance and confession

--Eph 2:9 excludes works of merit from salvation, not obedience. All works are not the same and no verse ever excludes obedience to the will of God from salvation.

--baptism is only for those who are sinners and capable of believing, repenting and confessing which excludes infants.