Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[Rodger]

What GodsGrace said here is crystal clear which proves my point.

"Obedience Keeps us saved".???

I have been in countless conversation over this with all kinds of people and they all, essentially, can be categorized into two areas:
1. “Remain faithful” and
2. “Be obedient.”

Whichever position is taken, both are dependent upon man’s faithfulness and ability.

God’s people are saved by grace through faith alone. I cannot help but wonder that if our salvation depends upon us remaining faithful and/or being obedient, then are we not keeping our salvation by being good? That’s right, by being good and risking works righteousness?

Now, all who read this...do you realize that this idea or though is exactly the opposite of what God has said!

This “maintaining salvation” teaching is the same as that held by the Roman Catholic Church, the Mormon Church, and the Jehovah’s Witnesses churches (among others).

A further concern I have is that if anyone were to try and maintain his salvation by being faithful/good, is he then required to keep the whole law?

 

[mailmandan]

They are. Just not the way you say they are necessary for salvation.

For us, our works are the evidence of the forgiveness of God by which we were saved.

For you works are the way you get God to save you.

Exactly. Those who promote salvation by faith and works can't seem to understand that we do not remove good works from the Christian life. We just put them in their proper place, subsequent to regeneration and salvation. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

 

[Rodger]

Exactly. Those who promote salvation by faith and works can't seem to understand that we do not remove good works from the Christian life. We just put them in their proper place, subsequent to regeneration and salvation. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

Correct!

Do you have any idea why those people we are talking about, think the way they do about being saved?

 

[mailmandan]

When you make things that people didn’t say, I would imagine that you hear all kinds of things.

What you said below is crystal clear and culminates in salvation by faith and works.

All well and good.

Now we come to verse 20.

• Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
• Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:20-24

The “works” in these passage is obedience.

Faith is incomplete without the action of obedience working together with our faith.

• You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Faith alone is not a biblical concept.

Faith without the corresponding action of obedience is incomplete and dead.

So, according to your argument above, Abraham had a dead, incomplete faith when he believed in the Lord in Genesis 15:6 and his faith was accounted to him for righteousness (also see Romans 4:2-3) and was unable to save him until many years later, after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. What you are teaching is salvation by faith and works.

 

[Rodger]

What you said below is crystal clear and culminates in salvation by faith and works.

So, according to your argument above, Abraham had a dead, incomplete faith when he believed in the Lord in Genesis 15:6 and his faith was accounted to him for righteousness (also see Romans 4:2-3) and was unable to save him until many years later, after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. What you are teaching is salvation by faith and works.

Yes he is.....100%!

 

[Rodger]

...for justification. Yeah, I know that.


If that's true they would cease to be, by definition, Reformed.

Just some to think on brother ............
Neither Jesus nor His Apostles ever said that there was some special sort of faith in Christ which was needed to be born again or justified. “Whoever believes in Him” in John 3:16 is clear. No special type of faith is required. “Whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst” (John 4:14) illustrates faith by drinking. One drink. Not a special type of drinking. Just drinking. Just believing. It absolutely amazes me how those we are speaking to refuse to accept the Word of God as it is written!

By coming up with a special sort of faith or an act of obedience that is required to be born again, one cannot be sure he has that special faith apart from looking at the evidence he has it. According to this seemingly harmless little saying—a saying not found in Scripture and one which indeed contradicts Scripture—you know you have saving faith if you are always doing good works. Remember, the faith that saves is never alone. So if for 5 minutes one day you found yourself without good works, you would be right to conclude you do not have the special type of faith needed to be born again. Never means never.

 

[GodsGrace]

See post #948.

Why?
You think, after 10 years of posting to you, that I don't know what I believe?

 

[JLB]

And yet you and JLB claim it is believing people who sin by being disobediently unfruitful that you are cut out of the vine and lose your salvation.

I believe those of us who are in Him, that are unfruitful, are removed by the Father.


“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away…
John 15:1-2

Do you disagree?

 

[JLB]

"Obedience Keeps us saved".???

I have been in countless conversation over this with all kinds of people and they all, essentially, can be categorized into two areas:
1. “Remain faithful” and
2. “Be obedient.”

Whichever position is taken, both are dependent upon man’s faithfulness and ability.

God’s people are saved by grace through faith alone. I cannot help but wonder that if our salvation depends upon us remaining faithful and/or being obedient, then are we not keeping our salvation by being good? That’s right, by being good and risking works righteousness?

Now, all who read this...do you realize that this idea or though is exactly the opposite of what God has said!

This “maintaining salvation” teaching is the same as that held by the Roman Catholic Church, the Mormon Church, and the Jehovah’s Witnesses churches (among others).

A further concern I have is that if anyone were to try and maintain his salvation by being faithful/good, is he then required to keep the whole law?

So your religion teaches that there is no need to obey Jesus Christ as LORD?

So your denomination teaches you that there is no need to walk according to the Spirit rather than walking according to the flesh?

Here is what is said by the Apostle John

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4


Also about His doctrine -

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
2 John 9


Paul teaches us that we must learn to walk according to the Spirit or we will not inherit the kingdom of God.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. Galatians 5:16-17

If we don’t learn to walk according to the Spirit, then we will practice the works of the flesh.

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

• that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Is this not clear?

Here is who will receive eternal salvation according to the scriptures…

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9

• eternal salvation to all who obey Him

Question:

Do you confess your sins so that you can be forgiven?

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I believe those of us who are in Him, that are unfruitful, are removed by the Father.


“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away…
John 15:1-2

Do you disagree?

Are they believing or unbelieving at the time they are cut out?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Here is who will receive eternal salvation according to the scriptures…

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9

We don't dispute that. What we dispute is your contention that the obedience of the person for whom Jesus became the author of eternal salvation is what makes them a saved person.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So your religion teaches that there is no need to obey Jesus Christ as LORD?

...for justification. That is what we believe.

You don't become righteous in God's sight by your righteous obedience. It would have to be perfect for that to happen. You become righteous in God's sight by believing that God has provided a High Priest and Sacrifice that wipes your unrighteousness away, making you righteous in God's sight. It's a gift received by faith, not wages owed you for work performed.

 

[mailmandan]

Correct!

Do you have any idea why those people we are talking about, think the way they do about being saved?

In regard to folks who view the preaching of the cross as foolishness to save those who believe and who are spiritually discerned and do not believe the gospel, these passages of scripture come to mind. (1 Corinthians 1:18-21; 2:11-14; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4)

 

[JLB]

...for justification. That is what we believe.

You don't become righteous in God's sight by your righteous obedience. It would have to be perfect for that to happen. You become righteous in God's sight by believing that God has provided a High Priest and Sacrifice that wipes your unrighteousness away, making you righteous in God's sight. It's a gift received by faith, not wages owed you for work performed.

If a born again Christian believes in Jesus Christ and the price He paid for our sins on the cross, but doesn’t obey the teaching to confess his sins to be forgiven, what good is his believing?

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

So it is doers (obeyers) of the word that receive the forgiveness of sins.

Otherwise a Christian is still in his sins.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So your denomination teaches you that there is no need to walk according to the Spirit rather than walking according to the flesh?

Only in regard to justification - becoming a saved person.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If a born again Christian believes in Jesus Christ and the price He paid for our sins on the cross, but doesn’t obey the teaching to confess his sins to be forgiven, what good is his believing?

He shows by him not asking for forgiveness that he doesn't really believe/trust in Jesus Christ and the price he paid for our sins on the cross.

Faith is evidenced by what it does. Just as the absence of faith is evidenced by what it does, or doesn't do.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

So it is doers (obeyers) of the word that receive the forgiveness of sins.

Jesus said the woman who washed his feet with her tears did that because her sins had been forgiven, not in order to get her sins forgiven:

47Therefore I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven, for she has loved much. (Her love is the evidence of the forgiveness she has received.) But he who has been forgiven little loves little. (Her great love shows she was forgiven much.)” - Luke 7:47

Here's an interesting note: The verb "have been forgiven" is in the Perfect tense. That means "an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated." (Luke 7:47).

The forgiveness she received is the 'bath' that Jesus said his disciples didn't need to take again, and who only needed to wash their feet (John 13:10). What that means is you don't need to maintain a salvation that got secured one time for all time when God forgave you your sins the moment you first believed. Much less maintain it by works.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So it is doers (obeyers) of the word that receive the forgiveness of sins.

Otherwise a Christian is still in his sins.

But not unto damnation. He would have to go back to unbelief, losing the efficacy of Christ's Sacrifice ever interceding on his behalf in heaven, for his sins to damn him. Assuming that's even possible for him to do.

The sins of the believing Christian cause a division in the fellowship between him and God. His sin does not end the relationship he has with God altogether...unless he is committing that sin out of unbelief. Assuming a true believer can go back to unbelief.

 

[mailmandan]

Why?
You think, after 10 years of posting to you, that I don't know what I believe?

It's obvious what you believe and I was addressing JLB, who appeared to think I may not be hearing folks correctly about what they believe.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

• that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Is this not clear?

It's crystal clear.

They don't inherit the kingdom of God because the person who practices such things is an unbeliever. And we all know unbelievers don't inherit the kingdom.

A true born again believer can not "practice such things" because God's seed abides in him and he is born of God:

9Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. John 3:9

But you keep inventing this fictitious person who is born of God and who has God's seed remaining in him but who goes on sinning. As you can see, that person does not exist. A born again believer would have to go back to unbelief in order to practice sin again. Assuming that's even possible to do.