Interecessory Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

[francisdesales]

Re: Interecessor Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

"praying to saints" is an unfortunate English gaffe held over from olde English, where the phrase had a different meaning.

We aske the saints to pray FOR us, as the Confiteor states during every Catholic Mass...

I confess to almighty God,
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have sinned through my own fault,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do;
and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin,
all the angels and saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God.

Please note carefully, we are asking for others to pray for us, whether they are saints in heaven, angels, or saints on earth... Note Who we are asking that they pray TO!

Regards

You ask Mary, the angels and saints to pray to God. This starts out vertical, ends vertical, but in the middle you are speaking to Mary, angels and saints. You are asking them to to pray on your behalf. This is a petition to them. A rose by any other name...

Are you being purposely argumentative???

If I ask a friend to pray for me, as Paul did, that's OK. But if I ask Mary to do the same thing, suddenly, it is a "Petition to God"...

Please. All the people we ask to pray on our behalf are included in the same line with no distinction. According to you, if you ask your Mom to pray for you, you are treating her like God...

"...This is said out loud during Mass, right? So you are asking others who are witness to your public confession to pray for you to the Lord our God. This is very different than asking this of another spirit in heaven - who we have no scriptural evidence to suggest are omnipresent.

We aren't suggesting she or anyone is omnipresent. But we do believe that since love remains (1 cor 13), God provides a way for them in heaven to express it by interceding for others.

As to the Scriptural evidence, it is implied. It does not contradict. You'll have to prove that this 2000 year Tradition is opposed to Scriptures.

 

[Mike]

Re: Interecessor Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

Are you being purposely argumentative???

I don't know where you got that I was being argumentative. I'm well aware of the tension that can come of opposing views here, but I think I've always gone out of my way to make mention that I would call Catholics brothers and sisters in Christ. I've also stood in defense of the Catholic church when people accuse them of worshiping Mary. So, I'm not very argumentative at all. You stated that the public confession is directed wholly toward God. All I did was point out where the object of the petition is not God.

We aren't suggesting she or anyone is omnipresent. But we do believe that since love remains (1 cor 13), God provides a way for them in heaven to express it by interceding for others.

It seems that in assuming they can hear your personal prayers, you would have to believe they are omnipresent.

You'll have to prove that this 2000 year Tradition is opposed to Scriptures.

The contradiction within this statement is startling. It would seem the burden of proof would be yours. I'm not being purposefully argumentative. I'm just saying, if your tradition is not found in scripture, it wouldn't be on me to prove it's not scriptural.

All this for the sake of conversation, not argument.

 

[chestertonrules]

Re: Interecessor Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

Although I have always considered Catholics part of the Body of Christ, this is something that I've never understood. It's part of the reason my wife and I who were Catholic wound up as members of the Lutheran Church.

Where do you see evidence that those who have gone on to be with the Lord have omnipresence?

When we die we will be fully united to Jesus. We are one body.

You know God is. You can have certainty of that. Why possibly waste a breath on someone who may not hear you when you know God will?

Jesus tells us that persistence pays off in prayer. Saints can pray for us without ceasing. James tells us that the prayers of the righteous are powerful and effective and that we should pray for eachother. Who is more righteous than saints in heaven who have been completely sanctified?


We are to pray for each other and seek the prayers of others.

That's what intercessory prayer is, and Christians have always practices intercessory prayer.

Since you are Lutheran, you might appreciate these quotes from Martin Luther:

One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521).

Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees . . . If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother. (Sermon, Christmas, 1529).

 

[Mike]

Re: Interecessor Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

Since you are Lutheran, you might appreciate these quotes from Martin Luther:

One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521).

Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees . . . If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother. (Sermon, Christmas, 1529).

I must admit this is interesting stuff. It would be more interesting if this was scripture. Since not everything said by Martin Luther can be attributed to the Holy Spirit, not everything carries the weight of scripture.

But you have me thinking, so I'm going to check this out. Thank you!

Since you brought her up, I guess I'll continue. Mary was the topic of our pastors message on Mother's Day. We honor her greatly. She is to be honored. I believe most people I fellowship with would agree that there are two mistakes people can make: elevating her to level of God and dismissing her all together. She obviously found favor in the eyes of God. Clearly, she was special.

Let me ask you this...And I'm asking, really. I'm not throwing this out there to state my case and make you respond. If we read the beginning of Mary's Song in Luke:

Mary's Song
46And Mary said:
"My soul glorifies the Lord
47and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior...


Why does Mary need a Savior? :help If she were sinless, why would she even have One? I've only been here a few months. I'm sorry if this is going down a road heavily trampled. I wouldn't have brought her up if you hadn't.

 

[Tina]

Re: Interecessor Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

.

You are in denial. Paul says death will not separate us from Jesus.

Did Paul go on to say that therefore we should pray to dead saints ??

Heb. 12 tells us that Old Testament saints are watching us. Jesus said that these people are not dead, but alive.

Precisely ! .. It only says they are watching us. It does not say they are waiting to hear or deliver your prayers !

All this chapter is trying to convey is that they are inspiring examples of faith, heroes of the past as the preceding chapter 11 mentions.

You have limited your faith to human understanding and you are denying the power of God.

Where in the Bible does it say that God has given dead saints His power to hear your prayers ?

It's the ANGELS that have been assigned the task to deliver our prayers to God but not dead saints. You are confusing angels with dead saints .... Read the folowing verses carefully ..... Angels are referred to as our "ministering spirits".


Galatians 3:19
What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.

Psalm 103:20
Bless the LORD, you His angels, who excel in strength, who do His word, heeding the voice of His word.

Hebrews 1:13-14
But to which of the angels has He ever said: “ Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool� Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?

 

[chestertonrules]

Re: Interecessor Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

[

Mary's Song
46And Mary said:
"My soul glorifies the Lord
47and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior...


Why does Mary need a Savior? :help If she were sinless, why would she even have One? I've only been here a few months. I'm sorry if this is going down a road heavily trampled. I wouldn't have brought her up if you hadn't.

Mary is sinless because of the grace of Jesus. Jesus was present in Mary from her conception. Jesus saved Mary just like he saved all of us, but her sanctification came at the beginning of her life.

How much sin would God permit in his mother? We believe that a perfect God could not be carried by a sinful, imperfect vessel.

Your questions are very and thoughtful and legitimate. Definitely nothing to apologize about!

Best Regards

 

[chestertonrules]

Re: Interecessor Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

[quote="Tina]
Did Paul go on to say that therefore we should pray to dead saints ??

They are not dead, and yes, Paul tells us to pray for him and for all men. Paul sought intercession.

Precisely ! .. It only says they are watching us. It does not say they are waiting to hear or deliver your prayers !

All this chapter is trying to convey is that they are inspiring examples of faith, heroes of the past as the preceding chapter 11 mentions.

It also tells us that these old testament saints are alive and watching. I provided other scripture that demonstrates that these people care about what happens on earth, as you know.

Where in the Bible does it say that God has given dead saints His power to hear your prayers ?

For the third time, they are not dead. Scripture is explicitly clear on this count.

It's the ANGELS that have been assigned the task to deliver our prayers to God but not dead saints. You are confusing angels with dead saints .

Angels can also intercede on our behalf.

Let me ask you: When you are in heaven will you still pray for your loved ones on earth?

 

[Mysteryman]

Re: Interecessor Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

[

Mary's Song
46And Mary said:
"My soul glorifies the Lord
47and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior...


Why does Mary need a Savior? :help If she were sinless, why would she even have One? I've only been here a few months. I'm sorry if this is going down a road heavily trampled. I wouldn't have brought her up if you hadn't.

Mary is sinless because of the grace of Jesus. Jesus was present in Mary from her conception. Jesus saved Mary just like he saved all of us, but her sanctification came at the beginning of her life.

How much sin would God permit in his mother? We believe that a perfect God could not be carried by a sinful, imperfect vessel.

Your questions are very and thoughtful and legitimate. Definitely nothing to apologize about!

Best Regards

Hi

We believe ? Who is "we" ? In case you have not noticed your own writting here. Your saying "we" in opposite of "you"

We, the rcc believe, correct ?

Truth does not seperate, it unites. Untruth causes division.

Mary was no more perfect than any other woman ! She was blessed and believed. But so did so many other men and women in the OT. Yet, the rcc does not give them special exemption from the sin of Adam. Noah was blessed and believed. Esther was blessed and believed. Moses was blessed and believed. Ruth was blessed and believed.

You do not point towards the scriptures for truth. You point towards the -- we ---

 

[Mike]

Re: Interecessor Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

[

Mary's Song
46And Mary said:
"My soul glorifies the Lord
47and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior...


Why does Mary need a Savior? :help If she were sinless, why would she even have One? I've only been here a few months. I'm sorry if this is going down a road heavily trampled. I wouldn't have brought her up if you hadn't.

Mary is sinless because of the grace of Jesus. Jesus was present in Mary from her conception. Jesus saved Mary just like he saved all of us, but her sanctification came at the beginning of her life.

How much sin would God permit in his mother? We believe that a perfect God could not be carried by a sinful, imperfect vessel.

Your questions are very and thoughtful and legitimate. Definitely nothing to apologize about!

Best Regards

Chestertonrules, thank you for your response.

My understanding is that Catholic doctrine holds that Mary was sinless up to the point that she was chosen. Not letting go of my belief of the Trinity, each of the 3 in 1 have their own roles. With that, it is by God's Grace we are made clean, not Jesus'. In this respect, all of us are clean by the Grace of God through the sacrifice of Jesus, so I'm confused by her uniqueness.

You go on to talk about her extraordinary status. She did have that, but let's consider how special she was. Was she sinless? A pure vessel to carry and birth our Savior? Again, my understanding of Catholic doctrine was that she was.

Earlier in Luke 1 when Mary questions how she will have child. We see something important (or at least I do) I see how God can use a beautiful, yet born-in-sin woman to carry His Son.

34"How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?"

35The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God."

From this, I understand that the Holy Spirit will "come upon her" and overwhelm her nature. It will be His Holiness, not hers.

It is worth noting how special Mary was. She didn't say "but this can't happen, because I'm a virgin". She says in effect, "How will He make this happen?". She was a beautifully faithful woman. :amen

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Interecessor Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

Are you being purposely argumentative???

I don't know where you got that I was being argumentative.

Does the line of the Confiteor that you had issues with make any distinction between Mary, the angels and the saints? But somehow, you do. Nothing in that prayer would make an unbiased person think that in the middle of that sentence, Mary is "god", while the saints are ordinary people. The objects are accorded a priority of order, but it doesn't follow that they are on another plain of "worship" altogether. We ask for the prayers of Mary, the angels, and the saints. Simple as that.

I'm well aware of the tension that can come of opposing views here, but I think I've always gone out of my way to make mention that I would call Catholics brothers and sisters in Christ.

And I do with Protestants, as well. So does the Catholic Church - which is why most Protestants are not "rebaptized" when they enter the Catholic Church for full communion. They are already part of the Church, since baptism is the door into the Church. Unfortunately, many Protestants do not recipricate.

I've also stood in defense of the Catholic church when people accuse them of worshiping Mary. So, I'm not very argumentative at all. You stated that the public confession is directed wholly toward God. All I did was point out where the object of the petition is not God.

The object of the petition is to that others pray for us to God.. Saints, angels, and Mary.

It seems that in assuming they can hear your personal prayers, you would have to believe they are omnipresent.

This is interesting. I do not know how it happens, but Scriptures accept that somehow, the dead are aware of what happens here. I don't know how to scientifically explain it, perhaps like another dimension that we cannot see and they can see us.

The Greek of the Transfiguration uses "manifests" vis a vis Moses and Elijah as if they were standing there the whole time, and were NOW MADE VISIBLE during the Transfiguration. I confirmed this previously with a Greek Orthodox friend of mine who speaks fluent Greek. It is as if the saints are standing around us, like the cloud of witnesses Hebrews mentions, we just can't see them. During the Transfiguration, God lifted the veil temporarily...

In addition, the saints in Revelation are aware of what is happening on earth, and in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, it seems we have an interceding man - although he is no longer physically alive...

Given that we are all part of the Body of Christ, and MORE so after our deaths, we cannot presume that the saints CANNOT hear our prayers - IF the Church has held this position for so long. Numerous documented miracles are attributed to the intercessionary powers of saints. Clearly, God allowed this miracle as evidence of the veracity - and He must have been doing it from the start, because this idea is part of Apostolic Tradition.

You'll have to prove that this 2000 year Tradition is opposed to Scriptures.

The contradiction within this statement is startling. It would seem the burden of proof would be yours. I'm not being purposefully argumentative. I'm just saying, if your tradition is not found in scripture, it wouldn't be on me to prove it's not scriptural.

What is even more startling is that you bind yourself to an ANTI-SCRIPTURAL doctrine - sola scriptura, and expect me to bind myself to it, as well!!!

NOWHERE did the Apostles or Christians in Scriptures attest to such an idea. They were told to obey ALL Traditions, both orally and in written form. I don't see an abrogation of that rule in the Scriptures, so anyone who respects the Scriptures as God's Word would NOT make presumptions that those days are now over. THAT is a tradition of men.

We are prima scriptura. All of our doctrines flow from the Scriptures in some manner, implied or explicit. They CANNOT contradict with Apostolic Tradition. But as to something "must be in the bible", there just is no support for that idea IN the Bible.

Case in point. Acts 15. Remember, Acts was written well after the event. And yet, the Apostles and the Church totally accepted, WITHOUT SCRIPTURAL WARRANT, the decision to do away with the COMMAND BY GOD to be circumcised. Sola Scripturists, the Judaizers, could not accept that. Thus, today's sola scripturists belong in the Judaizer camp. "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and us", said the Apostles - and the Councils continue to state the same thing.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Interecessor Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

Why does Mary need a Savior? :help If she were sinless, why would she even have One? I've only been here a few months. I'm sorry if this is going down a road heavily trampled. I wouldn't have brought her up if you hadn't.

Mary required a savior in a different manner than any other human being. (unless the Church decides that John the Baptist also fits this, there are some who believe this).

She was immaculately conceived, saved from original sin ever touching her.

The reason why she was sinless is because of a unique protection afforded to her by God, keeping the "New Testament Ark" pure and spotless.

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Interecessor Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

Did Paul go on to say that therefore we should pray to dead saints ??

Does he ever say that those who have died in Christ no longer can love anymore??? Does Paul tell us that one is separated from Christ upon death, and that they are no longer part of the Body of Christ, so cannot deliver prayers to God?

Precisely ! .. It only says they are watching us. It does not say they are waiting to hear or deliver your prayers !

It follows that since Paul told other Christians to pray for others, that it is a sign of love and concern, that those in heaven would even MORE SO pray for others. Doesn't God desires all men to be saved??? Perhaps He awaits prayers of intercession so that He WILL save some more...

All this chapter is trying to convey is that they are inspiring examples of faith, heroes of the past as the preceding chapter 11 mentions.

The entire doctrine is not found in hebrews 11. But we do see that the saints are indeed alive and watching us in this chapter. Doctrines are built upon a number of verses understood as a cohesive whole.

Where in the Bible does it say that God has given dead saints His power to hear your prayers ?

Where in the bible does it say God DENIES that power, given that they had it while alive, and the bible clearly says that those who have died in Christ REMAIN alive in some capacity???

You have to accept that sola scriptura is not acceptable to us, nor Christians for 2000 years, not found in the bible. Thus, you'll have to prove from Scriptures that the doctrine CONTRADICTS Scriptures, not that we must find the doctrine laid out explicitly. Christians understand the implications found in Scriptures that teach the concept.

It's the ANGELS that have been assigned the task to deliver our prayers to God but not dead saints.

So saints CANNOT be messengers...???

I see Paul telling LIVING saints to pray for HIM, and HE tells others to pray for different people.

If it is acceptable for a Christian to pray for another Christian, and Christians that physically die are still spiritually aware and love has not died, they remain righteous, then it follows that they have the ability and they CONTINUE to pray for others, even more so than "living saints".

 

[chestertonrules]

Re: Interecessor Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

From this, I understand that the Holy Spirit will "come upon her" and overwhelm her nature. It will be His Holiness, not hers.

It is worth noting how special Mary was. She didn't say "but this can't happen, because I'm a virgin". She says in effect, "How will He make this happen?". She was a beautifully faithful woman. :amen

Here's a good explanation from Dave Armstrong, a former evangelical pastor who converted to Catholicism:

Thus, the biblical argument outlined above proceeds as follows:


Luke 1:28 [RSV]: "And he came to her and said, 'Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!'"

[The RSVCE translates kecharitomene ("favored one" above) as "full of grace"]


1. Grace saves us.

2. Grace gives us the power to be holy and righteous and without sin.

Therefore, for a person to be full of grace is both to be saved and to be completely, exceptionally holy. It's a "zero-sum game": the more grace one has, the less sin. One might look at grace as water, and sin as the air in an empty glass (us). When you pour in the water (grace), the sin (air) is displaced. A full glass of water, therefore, contains no air (see also, similar zero-sum game concepts in 1 John 1:7,9; 3:6,9; 5:18). To be full of grace is to be devoid of sin. Thus we might re-apply the above two propositions:


1. To be full of the grace that saves is surely to be saved.

2. To be full of the grace that gives us the power to be holy, righteous, and without sin is to be fully without sin, by that same grace.

A deductive, biblical argument for the Immaculate Conception, with premises derived directly from Scripture, might look like this:


1. The Bible teaches that we are saved by God's grace.

2. To be "full of" God's grace, then, is to be saved.

3. Therefore, Mary is saved (Luke 1:28).

4. The Bible teaches that we need God's grace to live a holy life, free from sin.

5. To be "full of" God's grace is thus to be so holy that one is sinless.

6. Therefore, Mary is holy and sinless.

7. The essence of the Immaculate Conception is sinlessness.

8. Therefore, the Immaculate Conception, in its essence, can be directly deduced from Scripture.
The only way out of the logic would be to deny one of the two premises, and hold either that grace does not save or that grace is not that power which enables one to be sinless and holy. It is highly unlikely that any Evangelical Protestant would take such a position, so the argument is a very strong one, because it proceeds upon their own premises.

More here: http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/07/ ... ulate.html

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Since there IS NO "Biblical support" for anything other than:

Praying to Father in Jesus' name.

and

Praying (to Father in Jesus' name) in an intercessory manner for one another.

There's no problem NOT showing what isn't there. Simple as that.

Nobody doubts that the "Dear departed" are "alive in heaven" -

but the simple FACT of Scripture is that there is ABSOLUTELY no indication that they, in Heaven are involved with, or are in a position to even be AWARE of prayers "addressed" to them, OR in a position to "Arm twist" Father, or Jesus to do OUR bidding.

On the contrary, the WORD teaches the He KNOWS OUR EVERY NEED - even before we ask, AND that He LOVES us with a PERFECT love - SO WHO NEEDS some supposed "Canonized Saint", or "Blessed Virgin", or "Aunt Millie" to "pressure" Him.

We pray for one another to show our LOVE and commitment to each other HERE.

All the rest is nothing but Superstition.

The Catholic "Tradition" is long on teaching their people to try to "Gimmik" God into doing their bidding. In fact one of the prerequisites for Canonization is that the dear departed must PROVE he has the "Clout" with God to get prayers addressed to HIM Answered.

 

[Mike]

Re: Interecessor Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

Since you are Lutheran, you might appreciate these quotes from Martin Luther:

One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521).

Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees . . . If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother. (Sermon, Christmas, 1529).

Chestertonrules, I'll again repeat from my previous post, if these were scriptural texts, they would be very convincing. But they are not. Martin Luther's words were not inspired, so just because my denomination bares his name, this does not bind us to his teachings.

Records show that these writings were from earlier in his life at a time when he was still grappling with the indoctrination by the Catholic church. As he studied, prayed and contemplated, further separating himself from the binds of the Catholic doctrine, his later writings showed a dismissal of his stance on Mary's sinless nature. He came to the revelation that Mary should not be elevated to the place that the Catholic church seated her. Regardless of his affirmation or dismissal of her nature, Luther was only a man. Our doctrine is found only in the written Word, which is inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Still, as I said as well, she was chosen by God to bare her Son. She should be honored as among the most beloved women. She was special to say the least. By assuming that she has the nature of God, and can hear all prayers at all times, you bestow a certain level of divinity on her. That is not scriptural at all.

 

[jasoncran]

can i ask a question then. since i have two deceased catholic relatives.

can i ask my grandpa or great aunt to pray for me or must they be called saints by the pope?

next in confession. why is it necessary to perform the x amount hail marys and glory bes for forgivness?.

 

[chestertonrules]

can i ask a question then. since i have two deceased catholic relatives.

can i ask my grandpa or great aunt to pray for me or must they be called saints by the pope?

next in confession. why is it necessary to perform the x amount hail marys and glory bes for forgivness?.

You can ask anyone to pray for you.


Regarding penance, here's a good summary:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm

 

[francisdesales]

Since there IS NO "Biblical support" for anything other than:

Praying to Father in Jesus' name.

and

Praying (to Father in Jesus' name) in an intercessory manner for one another.

There's no problem NOT showing what isn't there. Simple as that.

You are missing the entire point of intercessionary prayers, which is QUITE Scriptural...

We are asking someone else to PRAY TO GOD FOR US...

No one is being asked to "fill in" for God. The saint I ask for intercessionary prayers from is ALSO going to Christ, just as YOU would if I asked you to pray for me, as well...

There is plentiful Scriptural citations of Paul asking OTHERS to pray FOR HIM to God... This is exactly what people do when they are asking righteous people in heaven to pray to the Father for them. It follows that those in heaven are righteous and the Scriptures says that a righteous man's prayers are efficacious. If so, why NOT ask the saints to pray for you???

On the contrary, the WORD teaches the He KNOWS OUR EVERY NEED - even before we ask,

Which begs the question, "Why pray to God in the first place???"

AND that He LOVES us with a PERFECT love - SO WHO NEEDS some supposed "Canonized Saint", or "Blessed Virgin", or "Aunt Millie" to "pressure" Him.

I do. IT is clearly a sign of humility.

We pray for one another to show our LOVE and commitment to each other HERE.

I see no difference in saint's intercessions. They are praying for people HERE... They are part of the SAME Body that we are...

In fact one of the prerequisites for Canonization is that the dear departed must PROVE he has the "Clout" with God to get prayers addressed to HIM Answered.

[/quote]

Clearly, a scientifically proven miracle is an indication that GOD is pleased to honor those who have obeyed Him on earth and continue to love Him even more in heaven.

Don't parents reward their own children with honors and rewards??? We are going along with God on this.

 

[jasoncran]

that link has nothing on the reasoning for the hail marys and glory bes.

and on the mary as an ark thing. i will say this. You all seem to think the only she has the grace upon salvation for her entire life without works, yet all others are esxcluded.

i really dont see the need for a priest to be a part of penance, when i can and do repent directly to the lord. Does the catholic faith teach this, that one has a direct line to God.

 

[francisdesales]

that link has nothing on the reasoning for the hail marys and glory bes.

and on the mary as an ark thing. i will say this. You all seem to think the only she has the grace upon salvation for her entire life without works, yet all others are esxcluded.

i really dont see the need for a priest to be a part of penance, when i can and do repent directly to the lord. Does the catholic faith teach this, that one has a direct line to God.

Jason,

Perhaps I can better answer those questions at the "debate" forum, not to debate, per sec, but so that this topic doesn't get sidetracked with confessions to priests, etc...

Regards