Interecessory Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

[jasoncran]

i was curious since interecesion involves confession of sins of the person being interceded for at times. but that person isnt confesing to me or the another person willing to pray but to the lord. perhaps a debate will do.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"You are missing the entire point of intercessionary prayers, which is QUITE Scriptural."

Don't be silly. I Stated in my post that intercessory prayers are Scripturally supported. There's no debate there.

What YOU are missing is ANY SCRIPTURAL INDICATION WHATSOEVER - that any "Deceased human":

Is aware of prayers from those of us who are alive

Has any part in prayer of ANY SORT in his new home

Is EVEN AWARE of anything that's going on here in the "temporal plane" of existance

All you've got is "Romanist Tradition" - based on NOTHING of substance - to support your whole "prayer to Mary and the Saints" fantasy.

Oh, and YOU (if you're a Christian) are just as much a "Saint" NOW as anybody who's been supposedly "Canonized" by your denomination. I'm one too.

 

[francisdesales]

"You are missing the entire point of intercessionary prayers, which is QUITE Scriptural."

Don't be silly. I Stated in my post that intercessory prayers are Scripturally supported. There's no debate there.


What YOU are missing is ANY SCRIPTURAL INDICATION WHATSOEVER - that any "Deceased human":



Is aware of prayers from those of us who are alive

Has any part in prayer of ANY SORT in his new home

Is EVEN AWARE of anything that's going on here in the "temporal plane" of existance

Not quite what you said the first time...

Since there IS NO "Biblical support" for anything other than:

Praying to Father in Jesus' name.

and

Praying (to Father in Jesus' name) in an intercessory manner for one another.

Clearly, the Bible supports the idea that "dead" saints are indeed alive...

Recall WHO was speaking to Jesus during the Transfiguration. Moses, right? Didn't he die? But there he is, speaking with Christ.... Did Jesus conjure Moses up just for the occasion, or, as the GREEK states, Moses was ALREADY present, just not seen until during the Transfiguration???

In Revelation, the saints at the altar are also interceding to the Father that He "take care of business" on earth, since their blood cried out for it....

In the parable of the rich man and lazarus, clearly, the dead man is quite alert and aware of things. Even the evil man is interceding for the sake of his family. JESUS is saying this, I'd assume that He knew what was going on in the afterlife.

Peter says that Christ went down to the souls in "hell" to preach to them about the Christ. I presume He was preaching to a captive audience???

Oh, there is plenty of Biblical notions to support this idea, you just don't know your Bible as well as you think...

Now, the Bible ALSO supports the fact that the righteous' person's prayers are effective... Correct?

Thus, put the two concepts together - the "dead" are indeed aware of what is happening here on earth and that righteous people's prayers are effective, it is quite biblical that one would indeed appeal to the "dead" saints, being that they ARE righteous and IN Christ. The concept is implied by the explicit comments from Scriptures and accepted by the Church well before protestantism came into existence.

All you've got is "Romanist Tradition" - based on NOTHING of substance - to support your whole "prayer to Mary and the Saints" fantasy.

Bob, this is just more evidence that you don't know what you are talking about. You don't know ancient Church history, nor do you like what the first Christians did, so you whine about "Traditions", when it is YOUR tradition that "commands" one to follow an unbiblical standard, sola scriptura....

Fortunately, Christians didn't believe it, and there is no reason to start now. What I see here is the typical beginning of name calling because you cannot support your argument without it...

If you think this is a "roman fantasy", go talk to the Greek church, in existence for 2000 years, and see whether this is a "roman fantasy", or whether it has been the belief of the Church from the beginning...

 

[francisdesales]

i was curious since interecesion involves confession of sins of the person being interceded for at times. but that person isnt confesing to me or the another person willing to pray but to the lord. perhaps a debate will do.

Perhaps. You'll have to clarify what you mean, I'm not sure I understand this post.

Regards

 

[Mike]

To me, the real question is of the ability for anyone but God to hear our prayers. I understand the benefits of intercession. Why else would we ask people to pray for us or pray for other people? Of course, we have a direct relationship with our Creator. He hears all of our prayers, but it is biblical to ask for prayers, have prayer warriors and be prayer warriors.

The real question to me is "Do they hear our Prayers?" Catholic doctrine is making a big leap here.

So saints CANNOT be messengers...???

I see Paul telling LIVING saints to pray for HIM, and HE tells others to pray for different people.

If it is acceptable for a Christian to pray for another Christian, and Christians that physically die are still spiritually aware and love has not died, they remain righteous, then it follows that they have the ability and they CONTINUE to pray for others, even more so than "living saints".

Saints could be messengers IF they had omnipresence to actually hear our prayers. We know God does. Using Paul here isn't applicable. We know if we talk to someone, they hear our request. We hear him tell us to pray for other people. It doesn't follow, as you suggest, that saints or Mary have the ability to intercede on our behalf. Using the account of Steven's martyrdom as one piece of evidence, I believe that when we die, we are either in the presence of God or not as Stephen is welcomed into the presence of God. If we are welcomed, we "might" carry with us great concern for those left behind, but we might be given the complete understanding of God's omnipotence and find fullness in His autonomy, leaving everything to His plan and finding peace in it. In Heaven, there is no worry, pain, grief or any negative emotion. If we do still carry the weight of the burden people still carry, we would still have to have omnipresence to hear the petitions of prayers. This is a HUGE assumption. What isn't a huge assumption is that God hears us, and the people we talk to hear us.

 

[francisdesales]

To me, the real question is of the ability for anyone but God to hear our prayers. I understand the benefits of intercession. Why else would we ask people to pray for us or pray for other people? Of course, we have a direct relationship with our Creator. He hears all of our prayers, but it is biblical to ask for prayers, have prayer warriors and be prayer warriors.

The real question to me is "Do they hear our Prayers?" Catholic doctrine is making a big leap here.

There are several comments I would like to make...

First of all, we believe that God DESIRES us to participate in the salvation of other men. That is why we are built into a community, given gifts for the Body (more so than ourselves), and are exhorted to build up others, pray for others, and bring them back from when someone slips back into sin. God gave the Church teachers, preachers and pastors so that others could hear the message (couldn't God had done that by Himself? Sure, but He chose not to.)

With this in mind, we see no reason why God would not CONTINUE to desire that men come to the aid of others on earth, while they remain in heaven. Interceding for others is a sign of love, and while faith and hope ends with death, love remains. Extra-biblical writings make it clear that Judaism and then Christianity considered patron saints as a viable practice that continued the work of the saint within the community. Recall, even death does not separate us from the Body, the community. If these saints are still joined to the Body, and participated in building it up while on earth, it would follow that IF THEY WERE ABLE, that they WOULD - even more so, now that they are perfectly united to Christ.

I cannot explain how the saints "hear" the prayers of us on earth. It does appear that the saints are walking among us and we just cannot see them, as the Greek suggests from the Transfiguration, for example, or the cloud of witnesses all around us. Perhaps science would say it is another dimension. Perhaps they hear prayers of others because God ALLOWS them to... I don't know.

I do know, though, that they DO indeed hear them and God allows them to continue to build up the Body of Christ. They continue to intercede for others, as miraculous events prove. The Traditions of the Church (part of which Paul told us to keep) includes this idea that preceeded Christianity, and there is no mention of the practice to the negative. Paul never tells us NOT ask for the prayers of the dead saints, so one must look elsewhere, besides what we find implied in Scriptures. Remember, the bible is not written as a catechism.

Saints could be messengers IF they had omnipresence to actually hear our prayers. We know God does. Using Paul here isn't applicable. We know if we talk to someone, they hear our request. We hear him tell us to pray for other people. It doesn't follow, as you suggest, that saints or Mary have the ability to intercede on our behalf. Using the account of Steven's martyrdom as one piece of evidence, I believe that when we die, we are either in the presence of God or not as Stephen is welcomed into the presence of God. If we are welcomed, we "might" carry with us great concern for those left behind, but we might be given the complete understanding of God's omnipotence and find fullness in His autonomy, leaving everything to His plan and finding peace in it.

Have you considered that God does not change when we get to heaven? Why would God have us pray for others on earth, but in heaven, that is supposedly off limits, "finding peace in His plan"? Has it occured to your that it IS God's plan that we pray for others, whether on earth or in heaven. Nothing changes regarding the reasoning behind praying for others in heaven. The only question is whether they can hear us.

In Heaven, there is no worry, pain, grief or any negative emotion. If we do still carry the weight of the burden people still carry, we would still have to have omnipresence to hear the petitions of prayers. This is a HUGE assumption. What isn't a huge assumption is that God hears us, and the people we talk to hear us.

I don't see how this effects whether one prays or not in heaven. There is no anxiety in praying for others because we will have better access and trust in God's plan, recognizing that God is just if He refuses to answer a prayer.

Regards

 

[Ahuli]

Re: Interecessor Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

.

We absolutely have no problem believing in intercessory prayers and communion of saints with living people, not with dead people, for it is an abomination to the Lord.


Deuteronomy 18:10-13
There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you. You shall be blameless before the LORD your God.

That says nothing about asking living saints in heaven to pray for us. Those who do this attempt to bypass God's Providence through sorcerers and spells. We are asking the OPPOSITE - that God look kindly upon us, not to avoid His Will through magic.

If you think this is about speaking with the dead, then you'll need to confront the fact that Jesus spoke with Moses and Elijah on Mount Tabor - and the Father was well pleased with Him...

Prove from scripture there are living saints in heaven, and leave out those mentioned in prophecy.

As for Moses and Elijah, and or Enoch .... Elijah and Enoch did not see death. Read the story of Moses and learn/understand what happened to him after he died, who saw him die and who buried him.

This living dead people in heaven is pure spiritism and paganism, adopted/adapted by the rcc during her willful process of syncretism. A shameful thing, since God denounces it in HIS holy word.

 

[Ahuli]

Re: Interecessor Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

"praying to saints" is an unfortunate English gaffe held over from olde English, where the phrase had a different meaning.

We aske the saints to pray FOR us, as the Confiteor states during every Catholic Mass...

I confess to almighty God,
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have sinned through my own fault,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do;
and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin,
all the angels and saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God.

Please note carefully, we are asking for others to pray for us, whether they are saints in heaven, angels, or saints on earth... Note Who we are asking that they pray TO!

Regards

You ask Mary, the angels and saints to pray to God. This starts out vertical, ends vertical, but in the middle you are speaking to Mary, angels and saints. You are asking them to to pray on your behalf. This is a petition to them. A rose by any other name...

Are you being purposely argumentative???

If I ask a friend to pray for me, as Paul did, that's OK. But if I ask Mary to do the same thing, suddenly, it is a "Petition to God"...

Please. All the people we ask to pray on our behalf are included in the same line with no distinction. According to you, if you ask your Mom to pray for you, you are treating her like God...

"...This is said out loud during Mass, right? So you are asking others who are witness to your public confession to pray for you to the Lord our God. This is very different than asking this of another spirit in heaven - who we have no scriptural evidence to suggest are omnipresent.

We aren't suggesting she or anyone is omnipresent. But we do believe that since love remains (1 cor 13), God provides a way for them in heaven to express it by interceding for others.

As to the Scriptural evidence, it is implied. It does not contradict. You'll have to prove that this 2000 year Tradition is opposed to Scriptures.[/quote]
There is ONE MEDIATOR between God and man .... We are admonished to go boldly to the throne of grace .... We are told to call God Abba, Father...... Our relationship must be with Christ and HIM directly. This living dead people thing is a catholic invention based on pagan forerunners all the way back to Babylon. The scriptures warn you what will happen to you if you add or take away from the word of God. Yet, the rcc has done nothing else.

Catholic tradition is the abject opposite of scripture. What's more, the rcc boast of it.

Cardinal John Henry Newman’s book, The Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, published in 1878, states in chapter 8:

“The rulers of the Church from early times were prepared, should the occasion arise, to adopt, to imitate, or to sanctify the existing rites and customs of the population, as well as the philosophy of the educated class. The use of temples and those dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasion with branches of trees (wreaths), incense, lamps, candles, votive offerings on recovering from illnesses, holy water, holy days and seasons (the entire Church calendar), use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields, sacerdotal vestments, the ring in marriage, chants, the Kyrie Eleison — are all of Pagan origin, and sanctified by adoption into the Church.â€

History of a Controversial Teaching

The doctrine of the immortal soul caused much controversy in the early Catholic Church.

Origen (ca. 185-254) was the first person to attempt to organize Christian doctrine into a systematic theology. He was an admirer of Plato and believed in the immortality of the soul and that it would depart to an everlasting reward or everlasting punishment at death.

In Origen De Principiis he wrote: "... The soul, having a substance and life of its own, shall after its departure from the world, be rewarded according to its deserts, being destined to obtain either an inheritance of eternal life and blessedness, if its actions shall have procured this for it, or to be delivered up to eternal fire and punishments, if the guilt of its crimes shall have brought it down to this ..." (Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, 1995, p. 240).

Origen taught that human souls existed before the body but are imprisoned in the physical world as a form of punishment. Physical life, he reasoned, is a purification process to return humans to a spiritual state.

Later Augustine (354-430) tackled the problem of the immortality of the soul and death. For Augustine death meant the destruction of the body, but the conscious soul would continue to live in either a blissful state with God or an agonizing state of separation from God.

In The City of God he wrote that the soul "is therefore called immortal, because in a sense, it does not cease to live and to feel; while the body is called mortal because it can be forsaken of all life, and cannot by itself live at all. The death, then, of the soul, takes place when God forsakes it, as the death of the body when the soul forsakes it" (Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 2, 1995, p. 245.)

The influences of pagan Platonic philosophy on Origen and Augustine are profound. Richard Tarnas, in his best-seller The Passion of the Western Mind, points to this influence: "... It was Augustine's formulation of Christian Platonism that was to permeate virtually all of medieval Christian thought in the West. So enthusiastic was the Christian integration of the Greek spirit that Socrates and Plato were frequently regarded as divinely inspired pre-Christian saints ..." (1991, p. 103).

Centuries later Thomas Aquinas (ca. 1225-1274) crystallized the doctrine of the immortal soul in The Summa Theologica. He taught that the soul is a conscious intellect and will and cannot be destroyed.

A few centuries later the leaders of the Protestant Reformation generally accepted these traditional views, so they became entrenched in traditional Protestant teaching.

The immortality of the soul is foundational in Western thought, both philosophical and religious. Belief in going to heaven or hell depends on it. But does the Bible teach that death is the separation of body and soul or that the soul is immortal?
http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn23/immortalsoul.htm


Therefore, the catholic theory that there are dead/living people in heaven is blasphemy.

"It is interesting to note how often our (Roman Catholic)Church has availed herself of practices which were in common use among pagans...Thus it is true, in a certain sense, that some (Roman Catholic) rites and ceremonies are a reproduction of those of pagan creeds..."
(Externals of the Catholic Church, 156)
"Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen...For the customs of the people are vain..." Jer.10:2-3

.

 

[Ahuli]

Re: Interecessor Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

Why does Mary need a Savior? :help If she were sinless, why would she even have One? I've only been here a few months. I'm sorry if this is going down a road heavily trampled. I wouldn't have brought her up if you hadn't.

Mary required a savior in a different manner than any other human being. (unless the Church decides that John the Baptist also fits this, there are some who believe this).

She was immaculately conceived, saved from original sin ever touching her.

The reason why she was sinless is because of a unique protection afforded to her by God, keeping the "New Testament Ark" pure and spotless.

If she had been sinless, she would not have died. The bible says little about the real Mary. The catholic mary, however, is aptly described by Jeremiah.

"The children gather wood, the fathers kindle fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, to provoke me to anger. Is it I whom they provoke? says The Lord. Is it not themselves, to their own confusion?" (Jeremiah 7:18-19 RSV)

And please don't tell me that catholics don't do this.

 

[chestertonrules]

To me, the real question is of the ability for anyone but God to hear our prayers. I understand the benefits of intercession. Why else would we ask people to pray for us or pray for other people? Of course, we have a direct relationship with our Creator. He hears all of our prayers, but it is biblical to ask for prayers, have prayer warriors and be prayer warriors.

The real question to me is "Do they hear our Prayers?" Catholic doctrine is making a big leap here.

.

That is the crux of the issue. I believe the leap was made by those who rejected traditional Christian teaching. The people that selected the books of the New Testament believed in intercessory prayer.


For issues not clearly explained in scripture, it is often helpful to go to the early Church and see what the apostles taught their followers.


The Apostles Creed clearly states belief in the communion of saints. Do you find this persuasive?

Other statements from the early Church:

"[Appealing to the three companions of Daniel] Think of me, I beseech you, so that I may achieve with you the same fate of martyrdom." Hippolytus of Rome, On Daniel, 11:30 (A.D. 204).

"Thus might you console us; but what of the flock? Would you first promise the oversight and leadership of yourself, a man under whose wings we all would gladly repose, and for whose words we thirst more eagerly than men suffering from thirst for the purest fountain? Secondly, persuade us that the good shepherd who laid down his life for the sheep has not even now left us; but is present, and tends and guides, and knows his own, and is known of his own, and, though bodily invisible, is spiritually recognized, and defends his flock against the wolves, and allows no one to climb over into the fold as a robber and traitor; to pervert and steal away, by the voice of strangers, souls under the fair guidance of the truth. Aye, I am well assured that his intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay which obscured it, and holds intercourse naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest Mind; being promoted, if it be not rash to say so, to the rank and confidence of an angel." John Chrysostom, On the Death of his Father, Oration 18:4 (A.D. 374).

 

[chestertonrules]

Re: Interecessor Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

[


And please don't tell me that catholics don't do this.

Read it for yourself:

970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."511 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Interecessor Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

If she had been sinless, she would not have died.

Like Jesus...?

And where does the bible say Mary died? Where is her grave?

The bible says little about the real Mary. The catholic mary, however, is aptly described by Jeremiah.

"The children gather wood, the fathers kindle fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, to provoke me to anger. Is it I whom they provoke? says The Lord. Is it not themselves, to their own confusion?" (Jeremiah 7:18-19 RSV)

You've been duped, we only worship one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[Mysteryman]

Re: Interecessor Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

If she had been sinless, she would not have died.

Like Jesus...?

And where does the bible say Mary died? Where is her grave?

The bible says little about the real Mary. The catholic mary, however, is aptly described by Jeremiah.

"The children gather wood, the fathers kindle fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, to provoke me to anger. Is it I whom they provoke? says The Lord. Is it not themselves, to their own confusion?" (Jeremiah 7:18-19 RSV)

You've been duped, we only worship one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Hi

Another doubting Thomas ? You need the grave of Mary before you will believe she is dead ?

Mary is not queen of heaven !! She is dead !

Worship ? But do you worship God in Spirit and in truth ? You've been duped ! :biglol

 

[chestertonrules]

Re: Interecessor Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

[

Hi

Another doubting Thomas ? You need the grave of Mary before you will believe she is dead ?

Mary is not queen of heaven !! She is dead !

Who is this?

Rev 12
1A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.


17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

 

[Mysteryman]

Re: Interecessor Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

[

Hi

Another doubting Thomas ? You need the grave of Mary before you will believe she is dead ?

Mary is not queen of heaven !! She is dead !

Who is this?

Rev 12
1A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.


17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Chester

Are you suggesting, that Mary was in heaven and pregnant, and that she gave birth from heaven ???

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Interecessor Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

Hi

Another doubting Thomas ? You need the grave of Mary before you will believe she is dead ?

Mary is not queen of heaven !! She is dead !

Worship ? But do you worship God in Spirit and in truth ? You've been duped ! :biglol

More name calling. Good for you... Wake me up if you can figure out something intelligent to comment on...

 

[chestertonrules]

Re: Interecessor Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

[

Hi

Another doubting Thomas ? You need the grave of Mary before you will believe she is dead ?

Mary is not queen of heaven !! She is dead !

Who is this?

Rev 12
1A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.


17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Chester

Are you suggesting, that Mary was in heaven and pregnant, and that she gave birth from heaven ???

No.

I don't think you've ever made a valid point since I've been sparring with you.

Is this by design?

 

[Mike]

With this in mind, we see no reason why God would not CONTINUE to desire that men come to the aid of others on earth, while they remain in heaven.

This is where you lose me and many others. By saying "...we see no reason...", there is the bridge from Scripture to trying to make assumptions within the confines of our human condition. Our "reason" should be Scripture and the Truths found in them. I don't see how we "reason" our way to make assumptions that aren't found in the Bible.

Interceding for others is a sign of love, and while faith and hope ends with death, love remains. Extra-biblical writings make it clear that Judaism and then Christianity considered patron saints as a viable practice that continued the work of the saint within the community.

Extra-biblical writings are not written by the Holy Spirit; not inspired. We know and agree that the Bible is. If God intended us to pray to anyone else besides Him, he would have specifically advised that we do. But he doesn't. And there's no account of Paul, Peter or any other disciple praying to them. Again, why employ anything in our prayer lives that isn't scriptural?

Recall, even death does not separate us from the Body, the community. If these saints are still joined to the Body, and participated in building it up while on earth, it would follow that IF THEY WERE ABLE, that they WOULD - even more so, now that they are perfectly united to Christ.

Just as "we see no reason", "it would follow" is the gateway to more assumptions. I disagree that it would follow that they are heard more than we are. God hears all of our prayers. He dwells within me.

I cannot explain how the saints "hear" the prayers of us on earth. It does appear that the saints are walking among us and we just cannot see them, as the Greek suggests from the Transfiguration, for example, or the cloud of witnesses all around us. Perhaps science would say it is another dimension. Perhaps they hear prayers of others because God ALLOWS them to... I don't know.

You're right. You don't know. And neither do I. But you and I know that God is in our midst. There's no assumption there and a wealth of Scripture to back this up. You can't use the Transfiguration as evidence for this. For God to summon up the prophets is not to suggest they we can or that they are always in our midst.

I do know, though, that they DO indeed hear them

How do you know this? It's not in Scripture. Please distinguish between what you know and what Catholic tradition leads you to believe. I don't think I'm being argumentative. I'm saying we can know what we have in Scripture. Anything not in Scripture is an exra-biblical belief.

Paul never tells us NOT ask for the prayers of the dead saints, so one must look elsewhere, besides what we find implied in Scriptures. Remember, the bible is not written as a catechism.

And again, that's where we will differ. There are many things the Bible never tells us NOT to do, and we don't make the assumptions that we should. He doesn't say NOT to ask for prayers of the dead saints, but we are NOT told to do it. We ARE told to pray to the Father in the Name of the Son.

Have you considered that God does not change when we get to heaven? Why would God have us pray for others on earth, but in heaven, that is supposedly off limits, "finding peace in His plan"? Has it occured to your that it IS God's plan that we pray for others, whether on earth or in heaven. Nothing changes regarding the reasoning behind praying for others in heaven. The only question is whether they can hear us.

Yes, that is a question. I believe that they can not. There is nothing in the Bible that says they do, no examples of followers seeking their intercession and nothing that instructs us to do so. Again, we are told throughout the Bible that God does hear us, and we are instructed to pray to Him.

I don't believe these are salvation issues. I understand where your Hope lies. I hope you would agree and understand where my hope lies as well. One day, we will know for sure, and that will be a glorious day! I know we have the same core beliefs that our salvation hinges on. And that binds us. I do believe that people can take the Catholic doctrine to extremes and cross the line into worship. I don't believe you or Chestertonrules worship anyone but the Triune God. But some people can be led astray with this belief and come to worship others. To that end, I will stay the course and direct my prayers to the One who I know will hear and answer them. Sometimes His answer is yes, no, or not now, but I pray for strength to find joy in His Will.

Thank you,
Mike

 

[Mysteryman]

Re: Interecessor Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

[

Hi

Another doubting Thomas ? You need the grave of Mary before you will believe she is dead ?

Mary is not queen of heaven !! She is dead !

Who is this?

Rev 12
1A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.


17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Chester

Are you suggesting, that Mary was in heaven and pregnant, and that she gave birth from heaven ???

No.

I don't think you've ever made a valid point since I've been sparring with you.

Is this by design?[/quote]

Hi Chester

Unreal ! Why do you not answer my question ? As it was you who brought Rev. 12:1 to the conversation pertaining to Mary ! ! You are the one claiming that Mary is in heaven. Now show scripture that would substantiate this claim of yours !

 

[Mike]

That is the crux of the issue. I believe the leap was made by those who rejected traditional Christian teaching. The people that selected the books of the New Testament believed in intercessory prayer.

For issues not clearly explained in scripture, it is often helpful to go to the early Church and see what the apostles taught their followers.

Well, we're going to have an ongoing separation of approaches. What in effect you are saying here is that God's message to us is incomplete; that He had more to say but didn't say it. I'm assuming we both agree that the Holy Spirit led the council in compiling His written Word. I believe what we have is His complete message to his Church or He would have led the council differently. That said, I will defer again, and say the burden lies in those who create additional tradition and call it equal to Holy Scripture.

Also, having said this, I can not listen to non-scriptural commentary that expounds on God's Word to us and give it the validity of the Bible. Please tell me why we have no directive to pray for intercession or example of anyone in the Bible praying to anyone but God?