Interecessory Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

[Mike]

It doesn't follow. You are presuming that ONLY God's written Word is inspired or from God. God gave men the power to bind and loosen other Christians. Clearly, the Bible is vague on a number of issues - otherwise, we wouldn't be discussing subjects like this with each other. God did not leave us with the mindset of private interpretation, because God has REVEALED something to us. It is an objective revelation, a truth that does not depend upon how we interpret it. To protect "the faith once given to the saints", God left a "pillar and foundation of the Truth", where the Spirit dwells within this Temple to lead it to all truth.

Please tell me where the bible states that "it" is the complete message. The bible was never intended to be a "complete" systematic theology book, because the independent writers obviously did not get with one another to compile such a work... Furthermore, there are a number of things that Christians are expected to do but are rarely discussed in the Bible, like HOW to receive or conduct Baptism, HOW to receive or conduct the Eucharist. Jesus said we must do both to have eternal life, but the Bible has precious little to say on HOW TO DO IT!

That is because the Church's oral teachings cover such things, part of the Tradition handed down and charged to be maintained.

Regards

Maybe the Bible is vague because it wasn't important that we focus on specifics. Baptism? Total immersion or not? Maybe it's not an issue. Embryonic stem cell research? Isn't it enough that we know life is cherished in the womb? I believe the Bible does speak to this as it does polygamy, homosexuality and other topics, but the words are not received and placed on some hearts. I feel He was very direct in saying of the Holy Communion, This is My Body...This is My Blood. So, we have difference of interpretation. Is this going to effect our eternal salvation? I would say not.

 

[Mike]

Chestertonrules, think about what you just said. You are a Trinitarian, aren't you? 3 in 1? Who is the True Author of the Bible? I'm not asking who penned the books. Who Authored the Word?

The New Testament was inspired by the Holy Spirit, but it was written by the Church.

The Holy Spirit Authored the Divine Word.

Then why do you reject the crystal clear teaching therein?

The Holy Spirit told YOU to listen to the Church. Why don't you?

I'm being a bit blunt here, but you are leaning on your own understanding rather than accepting what the Holy Spirit inspired the Church to write.

Please comment on these passages and tell me how you apply them in your life:

Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

2 Thes 2
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Matthew 16

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Chestertonrules, all this hinges on what you deem "the Church". If you are saying the Catholic church is the Church, I can't go with you there. I believe the churches who profess the core tenets make up His Church. So, I do listen and draw from the Church. As for 2 Thes 2 above, these were the teachings and words that led to the creation of the Bible for us to use.

Do you believe everyone outside the Catholic church will not be saved? If yes, than we shouldn't be arguing. If no, then I don't know what else I have to say.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote Mike: " It's ironic that Mysteryman fought me so vigorously in defense of the Jehovah's Witnesses when I stated that they are not Christian, but he fights so much with others who agree with the core tenets. Why, Mysteryman?"


Hi Mike:

The only reason I am responding here, is because you addressed this directly towards me. And I felt that I need to give you some sort of explanation . However, I am not especially expecting you to totally understand. But I will give it my best explanation possible.

First, I did not defend the JW's in any way. For the most part, I disagree with them on most of their doctrines. I merely wanted everyone to be on equal ground. When one claims to be a Christian, and then claims someone else as not being a Christian. The first thing that goes through my pea brain, is that I am wondering who really actually knows what it is that makes one a Christian.

So many claim the doctrine that they were raised in, or the doctrine that they understand. And what truely is a core doctrine anyways ? Is it something that has been handed down for almost two thousand years ? Is it something that most christians believe ? Does a majority have the right to claim exclusivity ?

Is not prayer between you and God ? And can we ask for prayer from a righteous man to pray for us ? Sure ! As we know from the scritpures, the prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Is praying to or through Mary a core belief ? If not, then why not ? Shouldn't we all stick to a core of belief ? Or is it more accurately understood , to be in comfort with the majority of those who believe a certain way ?

There are times, I fall in with the majority. But one must ask, who makes up a majority ? For the most part, the majority falls into the group that believes as the larger group does, because they will not be associated with those outside of the majority. It makes them feel uncomfortable when they go against the majority.

For the most part, many christian sects/denominations are ignorant of the scriptures. That is because the people who associate themselves with a certain group, tend to agree with what is being taught by such said group. Spiritual growth is not granted, unless one leaves that group and allows God to help them grow spiritually. Then there is the fact, that some teachers are just not capable or allowed, of teaching the scriptures outside of this groups core beliefs. You will easily be labled a heritic by your fellow brethren . And most people can not handle being labled in such a manner, so they shy away from the truth, in order that they do not rock the boat, sort of speaking.

I hold to the scriptures, that God wants us to worship him in spirit and in truth. And if I am not worsipping God in either spirit or truth. I feel that in some way, I am not loving God with all of my heart, soul, mind or strength.

I will leave the rest up to you, as to what you think of me and my way of understanding. However, do not hesitate to ask me a question. I will do my best to answer to the best of my ability.

Bless

 

[Mike]

Quote Mike: " It's ironic that Mysteryman fought me so vigorously in defense of the Jehovah's Witnesses when I stated that they are not Christian, but he fights so much with others who agree with the core tenets. Why, Mysteryman?"


Hi Mike:

The only reason I am responding here, is because you addressed this directly towards me. And I felt that I need to give you some sort of explanation . However, I am not especially expecting you to totally understand. But I will give it my best explanation possible.

First, I did not defend the JW's in any way. For the most part, I disagree with them on most of their doctrines. I merely wanted everyone to be on equal ground. When one claims to be a Christian, and then claims someone else as not being a Christian. The first thing that goes through my pea brain, is that I am wondering who really actually knows what it is that makes one a Christian.

So many claim the doctrine that they were raised in, or the doctrine that they understand. And what truely is a core doctrine anyways ? Is it something that has been handed down for almost two thousand years ? Is it something that most christians believe ? Does a majority have the right to claim exclusivity ?

Is not prayer between you and God ? And can we ask for prayer from a righteous man to pray for us ? Sure ! As we know from the scritpures, the prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Is praying to or through Mary a core belief ? If not, then why not ? Shouldn't we all stick to a core of belief ? Or is it more accurately understood , to be in comfort with the majority of those who believe a certain way ?

There are times, I fall in with the majority. But one must ask, who makes up a majority ? For the most part, the majority falls into the group that believes as the larger group does, because they will not be associated with those outside of the majority. It makes them feel uncomfortable when they go against the majority.

For the most part, many christian sects/denominations are ignorant of the scriptures. That is because the people who associate themselves with a certain group, tend to agree with what is being taught by such said group. Spiritual growth is not granted, unless one leaves that group and allows God to help them grow spiritually. Then there is the fact, that some teachers are just not capable or allowed, of teaching the scriptures outside of this groups core beliefs. You will easily be labled a heritic by your fellow brethren . And most people can not handle being labled in such a manner, so they shy away from the truth, in order that they do not rock the boat, sort of speaking.

I hold to the scriptures, that God wants us to worship him in spirit and in truth. And if I am not worsipping God in either spirit or truth. I feel that in some way, I am not loving God with all of my heart, soul, mind or strength.

I will leave the rest up to you, as to what you think of me and my way of understanding. However, do not hesitate to ask me a question. I will do my best to answer to the best of my ability.

Bless

Mysteryman, thank you for responding. What you say makes sense to me, but I'll say this. As I've said repeatedly, I don't believe that anyone but God hears our prayers. Only He has all the "omni's" that are needed to hear the prayers of the faithful. Catholics believe that Mary and the Saints are in Heaven and can hear our prayers & pass them on to God. I've already stated my case for why this is not known, true or necessary, so I won't repeat myself.

I'm not taking up for them. Frances and Chester can do that for themselves, but I'm responding because you present the differences as a core doctrine. But in the end, if they believe they can hear our prayers, isn't that much the same as me asking you to pray for me? I would ask you to. I wouldn't ask a saint to, because I don't believe it's possible for them to hear me. Wasted words. But there needs to be perspective, I think. In the end, Catholics do worship our Triune God. They believe everything in the Apostles Creed that we do (but we say "Holy Christian Church" & they say "Holy Catholic Church"), but they hold every other tenet in the doctrine core to our belief.

That's just my take from their perspective.

Mysteryman, you have so much good to say (and believe me, I'm always learning) about how we have come to be Christians. I can never think of a good way to word this... When I say who or who isn't a Christian, I'm speaking of our terminology in identifying ourselves as a Body of Believers. Whom God calls to be with Him in the end is dependent upon His Autonomy and Grace. I'm not saying "You are going to hell!". I'm saying "You are different enough, not to be associated with what I use to describe the Christian Church. Catholics do, in my opinion. JW and Mormons don't. As I read what I have written, it still falls short of what I want to say. I hope you understand. I definitely understand you, and again thank you for the response.

Mike

 

[jasoncran]

as much as i disgaree with the catholic teachings i do consider them a christian faith. and yes mccjb i saw that when i attended mass, no bible isnt the pew. i like to follow the pastor when he teaches to make sure that is being said in the bible and not opinion.

 

[Mike]

as much as i disgaree with the catholic teachings i do consider them a christian faith. and yes mccjb i saw that when i attended mass, no bible isnt the pew. i like to follow the pastor when he teaches to make sure that is being said in the bible and not opinion.

Absolutely! Why not?

 

[francisdesales]

as much as i disgaree with the catholic teachings i do consider them a christian faith. and yes mccjb i saw that when i attended mass, no bible isnt the pew. i like to follow the pastor when he teaches to make sure that is being said in the bible and not opinion.

Absolutely! Why not?

GUYS!!! 3

There is a missal in the pew with the readings!

If you are interested in going before or after the text of the reading, bring your own bible, the citations are marked, and most church bulletins will tell you the future readings of the week. I prepare for the Mass by reading from my Bible the readings and reflect on them. This is not beyond anyone with a bit of intelligence and desire to hear God speak to them...

Since the Mass is more than just a few bible readings, it is more convenient to have the entire Liturgy in one book, the Missal, where you can follow everything right there.

Regards

 

[jasoncran]

as much as i disgaree with the catholic teachings i do consider them a christian faith. and yes mccjb i saw that when i attended mass, no bible isnt the pew. i like to follow the pastor when he teaches to make sure that is being said in the bible and not opinion.

Absolutely! Why not?

GUYS!!! 3

There is a missal in the pew with the readings!

If you are interested in going before or after the text of the reading, bring your own bible, the citations are marked, and most church bulletins will tell you the future readings of the week. I prepare for the Mass by reading from my Bible the readings and reflect on them. This is not beyond anyone with a bit of intelligence and desire to hear God speak to them...

Since the Mass is more than just a few bible readings, it is more convenient to have the entire Liturgy in one book, the Missal, where you can follow everything right there.

Regards

i am aware of that. but we get the nasty look for having bible in hand. i have. but most catholics are they doing that. if they did and need to be taught proper exegis on the word.

if what mccjb is true then how can they be. i like to read the bible and have it taught to me from the book it self.

the calvary chapel movement is the best on that imho. they study the bible by simply prayer open up the book and chapter and read it(the pastor) and teach that. simple cant go wrong by that.

 

[jasoncran]

the word has to be inside you and learned. one day all churches even in america will forced into underground just like the chinese do. if you doubt need i remind us all of the rc persucution for its stand on gay adoption and marriage.

it's happening here even now.

 

[francisdesales]

i am aware of that. but we get the nasty look for having bible in hand. i have. but most catholics are they doing that. if they did and need to be taught proper exegis on the word.

Nasty look??? Come on...

Nasty???

if what mccjb is true then how can they be. i like to read the bible and have it taught to me from the book it self.

the calvary chapel movement is the best on that imho. they study the bible by simply prayer open up the book and chapter and read it(the pastor) and teach that. simple cant go wrong by that.

The problem with that is there is no sense of a liturgical year, no sense of a union with the greater Body. Every pastor will preach on their favorite pet books or chapters. I've seen it before. Romans. Galatians... Favorites of the pastor, they get the most coverage, over and over... Hardly talk about Christ, except His death looking at it as something long ago.

Liturgical calendars are important, just as regular calendars are. They mark out time and concentrate on what is most important to us. They bring to mind the sacred mysteries of Christ's life. We honor those who have successfully followed Christ. Not all Protestants are that way, there are many liturgical Protestant communities. I am just pointing out that having the pastor pick out a reading is not always a wonderful thing. You tend to stick to a few of his best material, which usually centers around giving money (sorry, that was my experience in the protestant pews...)

Catholics are encouraged to read the Scriptures before they come to Mass, and then LISTEN to them being proclaimed (NOT read them along with the reader). Hearing the Word proclaimed has much greater value. I urge you to give it a try - the next time you go to a Catholic Mass. It makes a difference.

AND, of course, there is that nasty issue with "private interpretation". No one has to listen to the pastor's exegesis, which takes away his authority among the members of his flock.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

the word has to be inside you and learned. one day all churches even in america will forced into underground just like the chinese do. if you doubt need i remind us all of the rc persucution for its stand on gay adoption and marriage.

it's happening here even now.

Well, we better stand together, then...

 

[chestertonrules]

[

Chestertonrules, all this hinges on what you deem "the Church". If you are saying the Catholic church is the Church, I can't go with you there. I believe the churches who profess the core tenets make up His Church. So, I do listen and draw from the Church. As for 2 Thes 2 above, these were the teachings and words that led to the creation of the Bible for us to use.

Do you believe everyone outside the Catholic church will not be saved? If yes, than we shouldn't be arguing. If no, then I don't know what else I have to say.

There are two questions to ask. 1) Did Jesus leave us an authoritative body to help protect the Truth? 2) Is this authoritative body still alive today in the Catholic Church?

Regardless, it is verifiable that the bible alone will result in mass confusion if that is the only source of doctrine.

The Catholic Church teaches that those who accept God's grace and try to walk in his grace can be saved, but we still have the obligation to spread the Truth. The Catholic Church is the easiest way to reach heaven because of the graces imparted by it's sacraments and because it teaches all Truth.

 

[jasoncran]

yes, i did get that,that was when it was more friendly at the afformientioned st.helens church to those of us who are protestants.

and yes the chuch will be a lot different when the persecution comes in america. a lot less bickering and more uplifting of the lord.

 

[Mike]

Catholics are encouraged to read the Scriptures before they come to Mass, and then LISTEN to them being proclaimed (NOT read them along with the reader). Hearing the Word proclaimed has much greater value. I urge you to give it a try - the next time you go to a Catholic Mass. It makes a difference.

Never, not once! Not one time did I EVER hear a priest encourage the congregation to prepare for the message. Not in 25 years of being in the Catholic church did I ever hear a priest encourage his congregation to be in the Word, let alone prepare for the service. As I've said, I've been a member of 3 different Catholic churches and visited many others. Never was the Word emphasized with the power that it has than with my protestant church. We have Bible in the pews Most bring them. As the pastor reads scripture, we read it out loud with him. If he makes reference to another verse, we turn to it with him. I have a pen in hand and have notes all over my Bible.

Besides significant doctrinal, but not salvational, issues that I have, there is much the Catholic Church could do to encourage, and even hold their congregation accountable to, in God's Word.

 

[jasoncran]

it said in china that the bible (whole) is wanted as one person reads an memorizes the part he has and passes it along. odd since they hunger to hear what the bible really says.

i guess the chinese have it all wrong then. besides the acceptable church in china is the catholic modified version and that done allow bibles in that chrurch nor read.

 

[Mike]

The Catholic Church teaches that those who accept God's grace and try to walk in his grace can be saved, but we still have the obligation to spread the Truth. The Catholic Church is the easiest way to reach heaven because of the graces imparted by it's sacraments and because it teaches all Truth.

So...

Chestertonrules, all this hinges on what you deem "the Church". If you are saying the Catholic church is the Church, I can't go with you there. I believe the churches who profess the core tenets make up His Church. So, I do listen and draw from the Church. As for 2 Thes 2 above, these were the teachings and words that led to the creation of the Bible for us to use.

Do you believe everyone outside the Catholic church will not be saved? If yes, than we shouldn't be arguing. If no, then I don't know what else I have to say.

Please answer this question, and then I'll proceed.

 

[westtexas]

Do you believe everyone outside the Catholic church will not be saved?

Mike, I won't attempt to speak for our Catholic brethren but from the little I have read about the Catholic faith I believe that they do teach that there is salvation outside of the Catholic Church. Catechism 816 teaches about salvation within the Catholic Church and then catechism 818 teaches about those who are separated and in other faiths.It reads "...... and in them are brought up in faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers... All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church. catechism 818"

I'll let Joe or Chesterton correct me if I'm wrong, I know little about the Catholic faith, but I do believe they teach salvation outside the Catholic Church.

Westtexas

 

[chestertonrules]

The Catholic Church teaches that those who accept God's grace and try to walk in his grace can be saved, but we still have the obligation to spread the Truth. The Catholic Church is the easiest way to reach heaven because of the graces imparted by it's sacraments and because it teaches all Truth.

Do you believe everyone outside the Catholic church will not be saved? If yes, than we shouldn't be arguing. If no, then I don't know what else I have to say.

Please answer this question, and then I'll proceed.[/quote]

I think I did answer above, with this comment:

The Catholic Church teaches that those who accept God's grace and try to walk in his grace can be saved, but we still have the obligation to spread the Truth.

However, the easiest way to get to heaven is to be in full communion with the Church and to follow it's teachings faithfully. There is no need to reinvent the wheel.

Here's the official proclamation:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

 

[chestertonrules]

Do you believe everyone outside the Catholic church will not be saved?

Mike, I won't attempt to speak for our Catholic brethren but from the little I have read about the Catholic faith I believe that they do teach that there is salvation outside of the Catholic Church. Catechism 816 teaches about salvation within the Catholic Church and then catechism 818 teaches about those who are separated and in other faiths.It reads "...... and in them are brought up in faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers... All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church. catechism 818"

I'll let Joe or Chesterton correct me if I'm wrong, I know little about the Catholic faith, but I do believe they teach salvation outside the Catholic Church.

Westtexas

Thanks, Westtexas, you are not wrong.


My grandmother, who has passed on, and some of my aunts who are still living are from the panhandle of Texas near Perryton. Where do you live?

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote Chester: "The Catholic Church teaches that those who accept God's grace and try to walk in his grace can be saved, but we still have the obligation to spread the Truth.

However, the easiest way to get to heaven is to be in full communion with the Church and to follow it's teachings faithfully."


Hi Chester

I would like to point out something here. When you say - "The Catholic Church teaches" etc. Why do you seperate what the rcc teaches, from what the scriptures teach ?

The next thing I would like to point out. In your comment above, You are suggesting (common pratice amongst Catholics) that there is an easy way and a hard way to get to heaven. That the easy way is to fully accept what the rcc teachers. And the hard way, is to walk in his grace.

Yet, it is easy to walk in his grace, not hard at all. Grace is unmerited divine favor. Which means we didn't earn it. We didn't deserve it either, but by God's mercy and grace, God has given us eternal life through Christ.

Actually, your way if the more difficult way towards salvation and eternal life ! With all of your laws and traditions and rules . You even have to work for your salvation. Again, the opposite of your expression of the easy way. Which I find humorous indeed ! :rolling

Don't try and become a painter Chester, because you paint a very poor picture ! :biglaugh