Interecessory Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

[Ahuli]

Re: Interecessor Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

If she had been sinless, she would not have died.

Like Jesus...?

What was the catholic mary's reason for dying the way Jesus did?

[quote:1mm7ydpa]And where does the bible say Mary died? Where is her grave?

Where is her husband, Joseph's grave?

The bible says little about the real Mary. The catholic mary, however, is aptly described by Jeremiah.

"The children gather wood, the fathers kindle fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, to provoke me to anger. Is it I whom they provoke? says The Lord. Is it not themselves, to their own confusion?" (Jeremiah 7:18-19 RSV)

You've been duped, we only worship one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.[/quote:1mm7ydpa]
The dupee is the above speakee.

 

[Dave...]

Dead saints, even if they are alive spiritually, are neither omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent. That's how they can hear the prayers of every saint. As if that wasn't enough...

His Holy Spirit makes intercession for us, not Mary, not dead saints.

Romans 8:26-27 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

In all of scripture that teaches, talks of, or gives examples of prayer, Mary, or dead saints are never mentioned as part of the process. That's all I'm saying in this thread because that's all that needs to be said. You have the truth, do what you like with it.

Dave

 

[Ahuli]

Re: Interecessor Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

If she had been sinless, she would not have died.

Like Jesus...?

And where does the bible say Mary died? Where is her grave?

The bible says little about the real Mary. The catholic mary, however, is aptly described by Jeremiah.

"The children gather wood, the fathers kindle fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, to provoke me to anger. Is it I whom they provoke? says The Lord. Is it not themselves, to their own confusion?" (Jeremiah 7:18-19 RSV)

You've been duped, we only worship one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Hi

Another doubting Thomas ? You need the grave of Mary before you will believe she is dead ?

Mary is not queen of heaven !! She is dead !

Worship ? But do you worship God in Spirit and in truth ? You've been duped ! :biglol

The catholic mary is a direct link to paganism.

Dr. J. D. Fulton: The Lady of Roman Catholic Mariology is not even an invention of Roman Catholicism, but an adoption of a pagan conception which cursed Babylon, the prototype of the modern Babylon, centuries before Christ appeared as the son of Mary. Pictures of the mother and child were then worshiped. In almost all the devotional books of the Roman Catholic Church, the mother of God is crowned, sceptred and enthroned as the Queen of heaven. ["She has been appointed by God to be the Queen of heaven and earth", Pius IX, 1854, but not made "official" till 1954 by Pius XII.] "I can never," said the Rev. M. Hobart Seymour, in his Evenings with the Romanists, page 254, "forget the shock I received when I first saw in their churches in Italy, the Virgin Mary crowned as Queen of heaven, seated on the same throne with Jesus crowned King of heaven. These were the God-man and God-woman enthroned alike. There was nothing to distinguish the one above the other."

The origin of this idolatry had its root in ancient mythology. Astarte of the Assyrians, Ashtoreth of the Sidonians and Bowaney of the Hindoos held the place that Mary occupies in the church of Rome. Greece had her Venus and Rome her Juno. The Diana of the Ephesians was a female, from whose body in every part there seemed to be issuing all the various animals of creation, symbolizing the conception and creation of all things. The Egyptians on the one hand and the Etrurians on the other had their Isis, the same symbol, a female divinity whom they regarded as "the mother of the gods." Jeremiah describes the Jews who had rebelled against God as making cakes to "the queen of heaven" (Jer. 7:18; 44:17), the title given to Juno in the Scandinavian theology. Rome has adopted this element of heathenism, this product of the carnal heart. In all its essential elements the Roman Etrurian and the Roman Catholic Mary brought from Babylon and adopted by papal Rome are in accord - Romanists are idolaters. In their churches are pictures of the Virgin that are worshiped because of the wonderful things professedly done by them. In St. Peter's is a picture of the Virgin bearing the inscription that it had miraculously shed blood when struck by a stone. A picture of the mother and child is at Lucca, of which it was affirmed that when some one flung a stone at the face of the child she transferred the child to the other arm and thus saved it from injury. Roman Catholic Mariologists defend this.
http://www.abcog.org/mary4.htm

The link is educational and gives the Christian apologist the information he/she needs to encounter the catholic controvertist.

 

[chestertonrules]

Dead saints, even if they are alive spiritually, are niether Omnipresent, Omniscient, and Omnipotent.

They are fully alive in Christ.

They are perfectly sanctified and yet they remain part of the body of Christ.


Think about that with an open mind for a few minutes.

 

[Ahuli]

Re: Interecessor Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

[

Hi

Another doubting Thomas ? You need the grave of Mary before you will believe she is dead ?

Mary is not queen of heaven !! She is dead !

Who is this?

Rev 12
1A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.


17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

It isn't the catholic mary. Christ's unpolluted church is the woman. The stars are the twelve tribes of spiritual Israel.

Verse 17 ... Can't say the rcc keeps God's commandments, nor does she have the testimony of Jesus. What would that be, according to you?

 

[chestertonrules]

Re: Interecessor Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

[

The link is educational and gives the Christian apologist the information he/she needs to encounter the catholic controvertist.

The man you are quoting is a liar, and you are bearing false witness.

I have already given you a direct quote from the Catholic Catechism which demonstrates that you are spreading misinformation.

Do you care about the Truth?



PROLOGUE


"FATHER, . . . this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."1 "God our Savior desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."2 "There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved"3 - than the name of JESUS.


970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."511 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."512

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p6.htm

 

[Ahuli]

Dead saints, even if they are alive spiritually, are niether Omnipresent, Omniscient, and Omnipotent.

They are fully alive in Christ.

They are perfectly sanctified and yet they remain part of the body of Christ.


Think about that with an open mind for a few minutes.

You need a mind open to strange doctrines to believe that the dead are alive. This is sheer paganism as far back as Babylon.

"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Job 14:12.

"We shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52.

"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds." Matthew 24:31. Why, oh why, would they do that?

 

[Ahuli]

Re: Interecessor Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

[

The link is educational and gives the Christian apologist the information he/she needs to encounter the catholic controvertist.

The man you are quoting is a liar, and you are bearing false witness.

I have already given you a direct quote from the Catholic Catechism which demonstrates that you are spreading misinformation.

Do you care about the Truth?



PROLOGUE


"FATHER, . . . this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."1 "God our Savior desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."2 "There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved"3 - than the name of JESUS.


970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."511 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."512

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p6.htm

ROFLMBO! He is repeating history, which anyone can research for him/herself. Your response, however, is genuinely catholic. :yes

 

[Ahuli]

Re: Interecessor Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

[
Hi Chester

Unreal ! Why do you not answer my question ? As it was you who brought Rev. 12:1 to the conversation pertaining to Mary ! ! You are the one claiming that Mary is in heaven. Now show scripture that would substantiate this claim of yours !

That's not what you posted. You posted a silly evasion because you were unable to deal with scripture.

Rev. 12 tells us that we are all(those who follow Jesus) the children of Mary.

Why wouldn't we ask her to pray for us?

Hi

Where did you ever get the idea that Rev. 12:1 tells us that ?

Because she is dead ! ?

It is the purpose of the catholic controvertist to defend his mother, the church, at all cost.

 

[Ahuli]

Re: Interecessor Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

[

Hi

You are holding to two false premises here.

1. You believe that Rev. 12:17 is talking about Mary, when in fact it is not.

So you say. Please defend your position.


[quote:2ljr3c3z]2. You quote from a faulty translation, thus rendering your understanding as being deluded.

Who is this child?

Rev. 12
5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.[/quote:2ljr3c3z]
The "SHE" is not the catholic mary. You forget that you are reading literal meanings into prophecy. Convenient for those who have no clue what is written in the word of God and only regurgitate what they have been fed by their momma.

 

[Ahuli]

Does the word "parable" mean anything to you? The imagery Jesus uses here is taken from the popular misconceptions of the times. Jesus spoke in parables, only, when He had a message to give. The story of Abraham and Lazarus would have to agree with what the bible says about death and resurrection. It does NOT.

Mark 12
26 “But now, as to whether the dead will be raised—haven’t you ever read about this in the writings of Moses, in the story of the burning bush? Long after Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had died, God said to Moses, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 27 So he is the God of the living, not the dead. You have made a serious error.â€

I still don't understand what you are trying to tell me. If you think I believe that the dead are alive, then you misunderstand me. The dead are dead, until Jesus comes with the resurrections. One to everlasting life, the other to everlasting death.

 

[Mysteryman]

Re: Interecessor Prayer/Communion of Saints: Biblical Support

Rev. 12:5 is talking about Jesus , there is no doub about that whatseover . However, Rev. 12:5 is not talking about Mary. Like I said before, the context of Rev. 12:1 continues on through verse 5. So this woman is heavenly not earthly.

Before I give you any additional information here on this woman. Let me ask you as to why you think that Rev. 12:17 is Mary, and Rev. 12: 5 is Mary ?

Because it is clearly the same woman. Here's the chapter.

5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

HI

This is what I mean by deluded . Like i explained to you in my earlier post, this woman in Rev. 12:1 - 5 is the same heavenly woman. Mary did not give birth to Jesus from and within heaven.

And, as I explained also to you, that when Mary did give birth to Jesus, there was no flood to carry her away. So your conclusions that Rev. 12:17 is talking about Mary is erroneous to say the least.

 

[Dave...]

The argument has raged for a long time. Protestants accuse Rome of praying to departed saints. Not so! says Rome, claiming instead that they pray through these people. Here is irrefutable proof for the Protestant position. The RC website referred to on the video is actually http://www.catholic.org and not .com as erroneously reported on the slide presentation :-( where you can check this for yourself. Feel free to contact me on cfpc@esatclear.ie

http://www.youtube.com/corkfpc

 

[francisdesales]

The argument has raged for a long time. Protestants accuse Rome of praying to departed saints. Not so! says Rome, claiming instead that they pray through these people. Here is irrefutable proof for the Protestant position. The RC website referred to on the video is actually http://www.catholic.org and not .com as erroneously reported on the slide presentation :-( where you can check this for yourself. Feel free to contact me on cfpc@esatclear.ie

http://www.youtube.com/corkfpc

Anyone who knows something about Catholicism will know that one video is meaningless about what the Church ACTUALLY teaches. We are all aware of "pseudo-catholics" who pretend they are but are not. Like Joe Biden or Nancy Pelosi...

Get real.

 

[chestertonrules]

I still don't understand what you are trying to tell me. If you think I believe that the dead are alive, then you misunderstand me. The dead are dead, until Jesus comes with the resurrections. One to everlasting life, the other to everlasting death.

I believe the bible, which is quite clear in telling us that those who die in God's good grace are not dead.

You will never die if you follow Jesus faithfully.

John 11
26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

 

[Ahuli]

The argument has raged for a long time. Protestants accuse Rome of praying to departed saints. Not so! says Rome, claiming instead that they pray through these people. Here is irrefutable proof for the Protestant position. The RC website referred to on the video is actually http://www.catholic.org and not .com as erroneously reported on the slide presentation :-( where you can check this for yourself. Feel free to contact me on cfpc@esatclear.ie

http://www.youtube.com/corkfpc

Incredible semantics. You have to pray to them to get through them. In other words, you are not praying past them, but to them. I despise catholic double-speak. It's like talking to small children.

 

[Ahuli]

The argument has raged for a long time. Protestants accuse Rome of praying to departed saints. Not so! says Rome, claiming instead that they pray through these people. Here is irrefutable proof for the Protestant position. The RC website referred to on the video is actually http://www.catholic.org and not .com as erroneously reported on the slide presentation :-( where you can check this for yourself. Feel free to contact me on cfpc@esatclear.ie

http://www.youtube.com/corkfpc

Anyone who knows something about Catholicism will know that one video is meaningless about what the Church ACTUALLY teaches. We are all aware of "pseudo-catholics" who pretend they are but are not. Like Joe Biden or Nancy Pelosi...

Get real.

One video, a thousand videos. If there is something in them that exposes your incredible double-speak, then all hell breaks loose.

This is how it works and your methods are not new:

"We cannot allow that every private Priest or member of the Church of Rome should give his own opinions merely as the standard of doctrine. We will have recourse to the oracular response of the Church, and insist that they be represented by themselves; not, however, by private individuals, but by their legal representatives. But, then, there is nothing which they dread so much as the testimony of their own Church. ... IT IS A PRINCIPAL AIM OF ALL [ROMAN CATHOLIC] CONTROVERTISTS TO EMPLOY EVERY MODE OF EVASION IN ORDER TO DISCONCERT THEIR OPPOSERS. There is even a marked difference between the tone of these Romish Divines who speak dogmatically for the instruction of their own members and that of those who attempt to answer the objections of their antagonists. With the former, all is matter of downright certainty; with the latter, all is doubt, difficulty, subterfuge, and evasion. When the faithful are to be instructed, every Priest becomes the sure depositary of the infallible decisions of an infallible Church; but when Protestants are to be confuted, the declarations of their most illustrious men are of no authority. Councils are discovered to have been but partly approved; Popes did not speak ex cathedra; Cardinals and Bishops are but private Doctors; and who cares for the opinion of an obscure Priest or Friar? Thus nothing is so difficult as to know what the belief of Roman Catholics really is; and WHEN A PROTESTANT ADDUCES THEIR OWN WRITERS AS WITNESSES, HE IS FREQUENTLY TOLD THAT HE IS A MISREPRESENTER OF THEIR CHURCH" (Charles Elliott, Delineation of Roman Catholicism, London: John Mason, 1851, p. 23).

 

[Ahuli]

I still don't understand what you are trying to tell me. If you think I believe that the dead are alive, then you misunderstand me. The dead are dead, until Jesus comes with the resurrections. One to everlasting life, the other to everlasting death.

I believe the bible, which is quite clear in telling us that those who die in God's good grace are not dead.

You will never die if you follow Jesus faithfully.

John 11
26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

I see! Dead but not dead.

 

[chestertonrules]

[

John 11
26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

I see! Dead but not dead.

I believe Jesus.

You think he is crazy. Oh well.

 

[Mike]

Jesus did say much more than the words compiled in the New Testament.

Jesus didn't write a book, he started a Church. This Church then proceeded to preserve and proclaim his message by both written and oral teaching.

Chestertonrules, think about what you just said. You are a Trinitarian, aren't you? 3 in 1? Who is the True Author of the Bible? I'm not asking who penned the books. Who Authored the Word?

It doesn't follow that because God INSPIRED (not wrote) the writing of the Bible, that it is completely the Word of God, or that "this" is all that God wants us to know about living a Christian life.

Case in point: Stem cell reseach. To my knowledge, not a word is mentioned in the Bible.
Case in point: Polygamy. We see the practice, and a number of Protestants, such as Martin Luther, defended the practice from the Scriptures.

And finally, we have Paul telling us to hold onto the traditions given, both in oral and in written form. NOWHERE does the Bible tell us that the oral traditions are abrogated, that oral understandings of the written word are done away with, or that there is some sort of swallowing of oral traditions into the written. THAT is a tradition of men, since it tells us to forget about part of God's Word to His Church.

Frances, (and Chestertonrules, too) I'm catching up and after reviewing the last few pages, I see that the discussion has degraded into a lot of accusations. It's ironic that Mysteryman fought me so vigorously in defense of the Jehovah's Witnesses when I stated that they are not Christian, but he fights so much with others who agree with the core tenets. Why, Mysteryman? While JW's differ significantly with the core tenets of the Christian faith, I don't see Catholicism and Protestantism as being so different, that we need to pit ourselves against each other. There is mutual misunderstanding of both sides. Having spent 1/2 of my life in the Catholic church, I see what some others outside the Catholic church don't. My life in the Protestant church gives me perspective of the Lutheran church, however there are non-denominational and other Protestant churches that I'm not familiar with.

Forgive me if I digress a little, but I want to give a little perspective.

I took my faith for granted growing up, but this was never a problem for any of the 3 Catholic churches that I was a member of. No one was concerned with what was happening in my heart. If I was showing up to Mass and reciting what I was supposed to be reciting, I fell in step. There was NEVER any encouragement to be in the Word, never any Bible studies, never any importance placed on a relationship with Jesus, my Savior. When I came to a point where I was overwhelmed by God's place in my life, I realized that the Catholic church did not have "the next step" for Christians to grow in their faith. I started realizing the differences in Catholic/Protestant doctrine. While they weren't "salvation matters", I started to feel like I belonged somewhere else. It bothered me that Bibles weren't in the pews, and I felt I could walk into the church stark naked and get the same reaction I got when I carried in my Bible. This wasn't only indicative of this one church. It was the same in all 3 and countless others I visited. The clincher came when I approached our priest, and asked for his support in establishing a Bible study. He basically accused me of intervening in his business and would not allow me to create a Bible study group. :help I met privately with a childhood priest (who eventually was transferred to teach at the Vatican, so he wasn't on the fringe) and he encouraged me when I said my wife and family were looking into other churches. He actually gave me "permission" to continue receiving Communion when I would visit my parents' church. (but I never do take it there)

It makes me sad that the Catholic church doesn't promote a life in the Bible and in a personal relationship with God. Having said all this, I have some Catholic friends who are FIERCE in their love for the Lord. But these are people who are forced to seek support outside the church. None of them have Bible studies and groups outside of Mass.

Okay, I'm back to topic here. I'm sorry, but I needed to say that.

God gave us His Word in the Bible. This was His Message to us. We can use outside information, but it always has to line up with what is in Scripture. If it doesn't line up, then it needs to be discarded. God foreknew that His Church would use the Bible to speak to them. If there was something more He felt it important for us to know, He would have put it in His letter. At the beginning of my Bible, I wrote "Dear, Mike" and at the end, I wrote, "Love, God". This is His Love Letter to me and all Christians.

Praying to saints and Mary was never, EVER modeled, demanded or suggested. Ever. If this was so powerful so as to "persuade" God, surely we would have someone, anyone in His Word do it or tell us to do it. I compare what you say on this matter, it doesn't line up, so I reject it. I know God hears me, and will answer my prayers. As I said, I understand this might not be what I want to hear, but I need to accept what His response is.

You wrote of things the Bible didn't specifically address. I can't scroll down enough to pull it up here now, so I'll respond in another post.

Mike