Interesting Point about Baptism

[Jim Parker]

We should baptize with water, because we were told to do it. But if it's not possible to do so, one can still be saved.

Of course. The exception of the Thief, for whom it was impossible to be baptized before he died, does not establish the rule.
Jesus established the rule in so many words.

iakov the fool

 

[Barbarian]

So why did he make it an exception? Because the thief sincerely repented and put his faith in God, even though he could not be baptized with water.

That is what God does in those circumstances. He would do it for any such person.

 

[for_his_glory]

Ephesians 2:8 Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus and not by works, which would make water baptism a work towards repentance. John said I must decrease and Jesus increase. Jesus never baptized with actual water even though He first came to John's water baptism as a fulfillment of the beginning of Christ ministry as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him that day and there after Jesus baptized others with the Holy Spirit, John ;25-34

John 3:5 never mentions the word baptize, but says only by being born of water and spirit, which means water as living water (word) that no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are Spiritually renewed (born again) by the word, which is Christ Jesus and by the Holy Spirit that comes on us as in the OT and indwells us in the NT. Many do read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology, but baptism is never mentioned in this verse. Word is living water as described in John 4:10; 7:38; 1John 5:6; Jeremiah 2:13; Isaiah 55:1-3 to name a few.

If salvation came by actual immersion in water Jesus clearly could have simply stated, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is baptized by being immersed in water and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Further, if Jesus had made such a statement, He would have contradicted numerous other Bible passages that make it clear that salvation is by faith (John 3:16; John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5).

We do bring up the case of the thief on the cross who repented, the women who was to be stoned for adultery, the women at the well, death bed confessions and even those who are incapacitated that can not be immersed in water. Does this mean they are not saved or born again, no. It means that no dirty river water is going to save anyone, but that it is only a symbol of repentance, but not for repentance and Spiritual renewal. There is nothing wrong with being dunked in water, but know that it is only an outward appearance to others of what has already taken place Spiritually within you.

 

[Jim Parker]

Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus and not by works, which would make water baptism a work towards repentance.

Jesus said, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." Mark 16:16 (NKJV)
No one who refuses to obey Jesus command will be saved.
Jesus also commanded his disciples: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," (Mat 28:19 NKJV) That means that everyone who became a disciple of Jesus was to be baptized.
Are you a disciple of Jesus?
If so, then why are you trying so hard to escape from what Jesus has commanded you to do?
Being baptized is not a "work towards repentance." It is obedience to the one whom you call your Lord and God.
Jesus asked, “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,' and not do the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46 NKJV) I am bewildered as to why you call Jesus "Lord" and tell people that they should not obey Him?
What would your answer be if God asked you, "I commanded that all believers be baptized. Why do you refute me?"

In the book of Acts, we are given the record of those who were saved being baptized in water. There is no reasonable question as to the necessity of being baptized in water neither is there any reasonable excuse for rebelling against the command of God that all believers be baptized.

 

[for_his_glory]

Jesus said, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." Mark 16:16 (NKJV)
No one who refuses to obey Jesus command will be saved.
Jesus also commanded his disciples: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," (Mat 28:19 NKJV) That means that everyone who became a disciple of Jesus was to be baptized.
Are you a disciple of Jesus?
If so, then why are you trying so hard to escape from what Jesus has commanded you to do?
Being baptized is not a "work towards repentance." It is obedience to the one whom you call your Lord and God.
Jesus asked, “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,' and not do the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46 NKJV) I am bewildered as to why you call Jesus "Lord" and tell people that they should not obey Him?
What would your answer be if God asked you, "I commanded that all believers be baptized. Why do you refute me?"

In the book of Acts, we are given the record of those who were saved being baptized in water. There is no reasonable question as to the necessity of being baptized in water neither is there any reasonable excuse for rebelling against the command of God that all believers be baptized.

Acts 2:38,39 When we repent of our sins and ask Jesus into our hearts we are also receiving the promise of God that his Holy Spirit will come and dwell in our hearts and teach us of all things we need to learn, John 14:26. The baptism that Peter was talking about in Acts 2:38 was a Spiritual rebirth through the word of God. Some people think it is being dunked or sprinkled with water the way John the Baptist did and there is nothing wrong with that for it is an outward appearance to man that you have repented and received Jesus and the Holy Spirit into your life, Matthew 3:11, but Jesus himself never baptized with water, John 4:2, for the baptism of Jesus was for receiving the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) that helps us to know the will of the Father, 1 Thessalonians 4:1-12.

There is nothing wrong with immersion in water as this is an outward appearance to others that you have received Gods Salvation and the Holy Spirit. When the Disciples where in the upper room they all received the Holy Spirit, not by immersion of water, but by Gods Spirit falling on them. What about those people who can not be immersed in water that are incapacitated. Peter did not say that it was through water that we receive the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:47, 48 he was saying that others should not forbid a Gentile who wants to be immersed in water, but repentance must come first and at the same time of repenting we also receive the Holy Spirit according to Acts 2:38,39.

 

[Jim Parker]

The baptism that Peter was talking about in Acts 2:38 was a Spiritual rebirth through the word of God.

edited reba
It was Peter who commanded the house of Cornelius be baptized IN WATER after they were baptized in the Holy Spirit.
Act 10:45-48 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.
That's being baptized in WATER.

When Phillip preached in Samaria, the people believed and were baptized but did not receive the Holy Spirit until Peter came and laid hands on them.
Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.
Act 8:14-16 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

When Phillip preached to the Ehtiopian eunuch, he believed and was baptized IN WATER.
Act 8:35-38 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.
edited reba

this is an outward appearance to others that you have received Gods Salvation and the Holy Spirit

That is a direct contradiction of what Paul teaches about baptism.
Rom 6:3-6 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

Edited reba

iakov the fool

 

[JLB]

It's from God. He dictated a book for us to read. Consider it.

Ok, please share the scripture that teaches us... "Baptism of desire".

The Good Thief wasn't baptized with water at all, but his baptism of desire was sufficient. Do you think God would do less for you? There is a difference between the sacrament and the sacramental. Don't think the map is the territory.

The thief on the cross was before these words spoken by Jesus.... Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:15-16


However, I do agree with you that people at the end of their life who don't have time for Baptism, are saved if they call upon Him of out faith.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Acts 2:38,39 When we repent of our sins and ask Jesus into our hearts we are also receiving the promise of God that his Holy Spirit will come and dwell in our hearts and teach us of all things we need to learn, John 14:26.

No such thing as repent of ours sin, and ask Jesus in our heart... whereby we [automatically] receive the Holy Spirit.

Please share the scripture for this statement.

I usually agree with you on most things, but this is not one of them.


JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

No such thing as repent of ours sin, and ask Jesus in our heart... whereby we [automatically] receive the Holy Spirit.

Please share the scripture for this statement.

I usually agree with you on most things, but this is not one of them.


JLB

There is nothing wrong with being immersed in water as it is an outward appearance to others that you have repented as you have made straight that narrow path for which you now will start walking in with Christ.

John the Baptist was preaching repentance for the forgiveness of sins to prepare themselves for the coming of Messiah. The water was a symbol of cleansing as John spoke to the people that the Messiah would come after him baptizing with the Holy Ghost and with fire, Matthew 3:11. We are now washed in the blood of the Lamb and renewed by the Holy Ghost, Acts16:30-33; Titus 3:5-7; Rev 1:5.

In Acts 2:36-39 Peter says to repent first and then be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. The baptism of Christ is to repent first and then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

John 3:5 never mentions the word baptize, but says only by being born of water and spirit, which means water as living water (word) that no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are Spiritually renewed (born again) by the word of God. John 4:10; 7:38; 1John 5:6; Jeremiah 2:13; Isaiah 55:1-3

 

[brewmama]

There is nothing wrong with being immersed in water as it is an outward appearance to others that you have repented as you have made straight that narrow path for which you now will start walking in with Christ.

John the Baptist was preaching repentance for the forgiveness of sins to prepare themselves for the coming of Messiah. The water was a symbol of cleansing as John spoke to the people that the Messiah would come after him baptizing with the Holy Ghost and with fire, Matthew 3:11. We are now washed in the blood of the Lamb and renewed by the Holy Ghost, Acts16:30-33; Titus 3:5-7; Rev 1:5.

In Acts 2:36-39 Peter says to repent first and then be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. The baptism of Christ is to repent first and then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

John 3:5 never mentions the word baptize, but says only by being born of water and spirit, which means water as living water (word) that no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are Spiritually renewed (born again) by the word of God. John 4:10; 7:38; 1John 5:6; Jeremiah 2:13; Isaiah 55:1-3

You have a strange, unbiblical, unhistorical idea of baptism. Why do you go to such lengths and manipulations over it?

 

[for_his_glory]

Rubbish.
It was Peter who commanded the house of Cornelius be baptized IN WATER after they were baptized in the Holy Spirit.
Act 10:45-48 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.
That's being baptized in WATER.

When Phillip preached in Samaria, the people believed and were baptized but did not receive the Holy Spirit until Peter came and laid hands on them.
Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.
Act 8:14-16 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

When Phillip preached to the Ehtiopian eunuch, he believed and was baptized IN WATER.
Act 8:35-38 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.


Nothing wrong???? It is what Jesus commanded.

That is a direct contradiction of what Paul teaches about baptism.
Rom 6:3-6 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

Do you see anything there about baptism being some kind of "sign" so everyone will know that you've joined the church?
Me either.

Where do you GET this nonsense??????
There is absolutely nothing in that passage about your imaginary purpose.
Read what the scriptures say and not what you want them to say. Phillip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." (be baptized in Water)

What those passages tell us is that the primitive church obeyed Jesus command to baptize believers IN WATER.
What is you problem with doing likewise?
Why are you making up so many excuses not to believe what the Bible expressly says?
I don't get it.

(har UMPH! )

iakov the fool

You might see it as rubbish, but I see it as truth and we need not be rude and put down another for what they believe.

John the Baptist was preaching repentance for the forgiveness of sins to prepare themselves for the coming of Messiah. The water was a symbol of cleansing as John spoke to the people that the Messiah would come after him baptizing with the Holy Ghost and with fire, Matthew 3:11. We are now washed in the blood of the Lamb and renewed by the Holy Ghost, Acts16:30-33; Titus 3:5-7; Rev 1:5.

In Acts 2:36-39 Peter says to repent first and then be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. The baptism of Christ is to repent first and then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

John the baptist said that Jesus must increase as now they had the living word (water) and that John's baptism in actual water must decrease as John's baptism in water was only for repentance only as from that time forth Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire, Matthew 3:11. Paul said in 1Corinthians 1:17 that Christ did not send him out to baptize, but to preach the gospel just as the Disciples were sent out to teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, Matthew 28:18-20.

The word water in John 3:5 means the living word of God as in John 4:13,14; Acts 10:47; Hebrews 10:22; John 5:6,8; Rev 21:6; 22:1,17; Matthew 3:11; Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16; John 1:32-34; Acts 11:16

John 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

 

[brewmama]

You might see it as rubbish, but I see it as truth and we need not be rude and put down another for what they believe.

John the Baptist was preaching repentance for the forgiveness of sins to prepare themselves for the coming of Messiah. The water was a symbol of cleansing as John spoke to the people that the Messiah would come after him baptizing with the Holy Ghost and with fire, Matthew 3:11. We are now washed in the blood of the Lamb and renewed by the Holy Ghost, Acts16:30-33; Titus 3:5-7; Rev 1:5.

In Acts 2:36-39 Peter says to repent first and then be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. The baptism of Christ is to repent first and then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

John the baptist said that Jesus must increase as now they had the living word (water) and that John's baptism in actual water must decrease as John's baptism in water was only for repentance only as from that time forth Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire, Matthew 3:11. Paul said in 1Corinthians 1:17 that Christ did not send him out to baptize, but to preach the gospel just as the Disciples were sent out to teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, Matthew 28:18-20.

The word water in John 3:5 means the living word of God as in John 4:13,14; Acts 10:47; Hebrews 10:22; John 5:6,8; Rev 21:6; 22:1,17; Matthew 3:11; Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16; John 1:32-34; Acts 11:16

John 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Not one thing you posted says that baptism is not of water, or not necessary.

 

[for_his_glory]

You have a strange, unbiblical, unhistorical idea of baptism. Why do you go to such lengths and manipulations over it?

Pretty much scriptural if you would walk away from mans doctrines for how they teach and actually take the time to study scripture for yourself for what it truly says. 1John 2:27.

 

[for_his_glory]

Not one thing you posted says that baptism is not of water, or not necessary.

With such a quick response I take it you did not read the scriptures I provided. Please show me where Jesus ever taught baptism is by immersion of water. John the baptist who was called of God did so as for the remission of sin only until Christ came and baptized with the Holy Spirit and fire, never water.

 

[Jim Parker]

So why did he make it an exception? Because the thief sincerely repented and put his faith in God, even though he could not be baptized with water.

Right. It was obvious that he wasn't going to be able to be baptized before he died.

 

[LovethroughDove]

With such a quick response I take it you did not read the scriptures I provided. Please show me where Jesus ever taught baptism is by immersion of water. John the baptist who was called of God did so as for the remission of sin only until Christ came and baptized with the Holy Spirit and fire, never water.

Yep. Matthew 3:11 "I baptize you with water for repentance. (John the Baptist) But after me will come one (Jesus) who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He (Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

 

[Jim Parker]

So why did he make it an exception? Because the thief sincerely repented and put his faith in God, even though he could not be baptized with water.

That is what God does in those circumstances. He would do it for any such person.

Just between you, me and the lamp post, I have a suspicion that the main reason for people being so adamantly opposed to Jesus' command to be baptized in water is that it seems (dare I say it???) sacramental. It's just too KAAATH-lick. :shock

I have posted examples from the book of acts demonstrating that it was the church's practice from the beginning to baptize people in water when they believed. But, nobody wants to acknowledge that is what the inerrant, inspired, infallible, sola scriptura says.

But, what do I know?

iakov the fool

 

[brewmama]

Pretty much scriptural if you would walk away from mans doctrines for how they teach and actually take the time to study scripture for yourself for what it truly says. 1John 2:27.

Why do you assume I haven't studied scripture, or that all the early Church and subsequent theologians and doctors of the Church haven't studied scripture? Pretty presumptive, I'd say. How do you know that what YOU say is "what it truly says"?

 

[brewmama]

With such a quick response I take it you did not read the scriptures I provided. Please show me where Jesus ever taught baptism is by immersion of water. John the baptist who was called of God did so as for the remission of sin only until Christ came and baptized with the Holy Spirit and fire, never water.

By virtue of BEING BAPTIZED by immersion of water, Jesus gave us the form to follow. Why do you think He did it? I did read your scriptures, and have read them before. Where does it say "never water"?

 

[Jim Parker]

Yep. Matthew 3:11 "I baptize you with water for repentance. (John the Baptist) But after me will come one (Jesus) who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He (Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

The baptism in the Holy Spirit is not a replacement for baptism in water. Jesus said that, in order to enter the kingdom of heaven, one must be born again of water (see Ro 6:3-4) and of the Spirit. That's baptism in water for regeneration (united with Christ in His death and resurrection to new life) and of Spirit. (Baptized in the Holy Spirit.)
If baptism in the Holy Spirit were a replacement for baptism in water, then the book of Acts would not be replete with examples of believers being baptized in water.

The baptism in water of the household of Cornelius AFTER they were baptized in the Holy Spirit clearly demonstrates the fact (to those with eyes to see) that the apostles expected new believers to experience BOTH baptisms.
Act 10:44-48 (NKJV) While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. (That's the baptism in the Holy Spirit) And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. (again, there's the baptism of the Holy Spirit)
Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. (And that baptism is in obedience to Jesus' command to baptize disciples in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. see Mat 28:19)

But that's just what that inspired, inerrant, infallible, sola scriptura thingy says. :wink

iakov the fool