Interesting Point about Baptism

[Malachi]

The baptism in the Holy Spirit is not a replacement for baptism in water.

This is so fundamental that it should not even be an issue. But we live in a day of massive spiritual confusion and false teachings, so everything is under attack.

 

[Malachi]

Yep. Matthew 3:11 "I baptize you with water for repentance.

How did you miss Matthew 28:19?

 

[for_his_glory]

Why do you assume I haven't studied scripture, or that all the early Church and subsequent theologians and doctors of the Church haven't studied scripture? Pretty presumptive, I'd say. How do you know that what YOU say is "what it truly says"?

I was talking about the scriptures I gave you to read, not the ones you have already studied for how would I know what you have already studied. How do I know what scripture truly says, I read it word for word sentence by sentence for what is already written. What part of Matthew 3:11 and John 1:33 don't you understand as it seems pretty clear to me.

 

[Cygnus]

We've had a few discussions about baptism by water vs baptism by the Holy Spirit and whether or not water baptism is required or important. I was reading through Acts 10 this morning where Peter preached to Cornelius and his household. What caught my attention was the turn of events and the order in which they occurred. I thought I'd post here in the Lounge because I don't wish to debate it but just wanted to share it for what it's worth. I found it interesting that even after receiving the Holy Spirit, Peter commanded that they all be baptized with water.

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days. Acts 10:44-48 NKJV

Just food for thought.

That is a good point in showing baptism isn't required for salvation. 1st John 1:7 tells us the "blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin"...not water.

 

[Jim Parker]

You might see it as rubbish, but I see it as truth

I see it as rubbish because, not only is not what is taught in the Bible, but, in fact, it is contrary to what is taught in the Bible as I have repeatedly demonstrated by repeatedly posting the relevant scriptures for anyone who has eyes to see.

The baptism of Christ is to repent first and then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

"The baptism of Christ"? I don't think that might be found anywhere in that inerrant, inspired, infallible, sola scriptura thingy.
Maybe I missed it. What verse specifically describes "the baptism of Christ"?

John's baptism in water was only for repentance only as from that time forth Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire,

Yes, John's baptism was for repentance.
The new disciple's Christian baptism is water is for regeneration. (Ro 6:3-4, Jn 3:5)
Jesus is the baptizer in the Holy Spirit which is different from the baptism for regeneration.
The Church has always baptized in water and Jesus baptized in the Holy Spirit since the day of Pentecost.

For example:
The believers at Samaria were baptized in water by Phillip and then in the Holy Spirit when Peter came and they laid hands on them.
Act 8:14-17 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them.
They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

You can believe what is so obviously laid out for you in the scriptures or you can continue to be dedicated to the traditions of men which you find more agreeable. Several people have repeatedly posted the word of God which refutes the non-biblical religious idea that baptism in water is just an empty ritual performed for the sole purpose of publicly showing people that somebody joined the Church.

If you don't want to know then you don't get to know.

iakov the fool

 

[for_his_glory]

By virtue of BEING BAPTIZED by immersion of water, Jesus gave us the form to follow. Why do you think He did it? I did read your scriptures, and have read them before. Where does it say "never water"?

Jesus came to John's baptism as a proof to show those of the one who John was preaching of as they say the sign of the Holy Spirit fall on Him. Jesus never baptized with actual water even though He first came to John's water baptism as a fulfillment of the beginning of Christ ministry as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him that day and there after Jesus baptized others with the Holy Spirit and fire, Matthew 3:11; John 3:25-34

I gave you those scriptures already. Where does it say water only or even that Jesus ever baptized with water? What about all who are incapacitated that can't be dunked in water, does that mean they are none of God? Heaven forbid! Then there is the debate over full immersion and being sprinkled, which of these are scriptural?

There is nothing wrong with being baptized in water as it is only an outward appearance to others that you have repented and nothing more. I was baptized in water unto repentance as an outward appearance, but it is only through Christ that baptizes us with the Holy Spirit and fire. Many baptize babies which I was when I was a baby and sprinkled with water, but how can a baby repent or even have the knowledge of sin.

 

[Cygnus]

Just imagine this....you heard the gospel and truly believed....you're on the way to the baptismal when you slip on the steps...falling you bash your head on the floor and die.

Darn, so close....but yet so far.

 

[Jim Parker]

I was talking about the scriptures I gave you to read, not the ones you have already studied for how would I know what you have already studied. How do I know what scripture truly says, I read it word for word sentence by sentence for what is already written. What part of Matthew 3:11 and John 1:33 don't you understand as it seems pretty clear to me.

Obviously it is NOT clear to you.
Nowhere in those verses does the scripture say that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit replaces baptism in water.
YOU have inserted that unblblical notion into the scripture. It is not there in God's word.

 

[JohnDB]

That is a good point in showing baptism isn't required for salvation. 1st John 1:7 tells us the "blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin"...not water.

I would agree.
Jesus went around destroying rituals and ceremonies. Hand washing was a major one.
Paul went about destroying circumcisions.
The writer of Hebrews destroyed the sacrificial system.

The main point of Baptism, back in the Early Church Era, was " Priesthood of Every Believer" Meaning that a believer could "handle scriptures" and bring their own sins before God. Before this point a priest and a sacrifice was necessary.

 

[Cygnus]

Obviously it is NOT clear to you.
Nowhere in those verses does the scripture say that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit replaces baptism in water.
YOU have inserted that unblblical notion into the scripture. It is not there in God's word.

I would have to think if the Holy Spirit replaced water....the bible would have been a bit more clear on that topic.
If baptism was required for salvation then the bible would have also been a bit more clear on that topic. You would see it repeated over and over.

 

[Cygnus]

I would agree.
Jesus went around destroying rituals and ceremonies. Hand washing was a major one.
Paul went about destroying circumcisions.
The writer of Hebrews destroyed the sacrificial system.

The main point of Baptism, back in the Early Church Era, was " Priesthood of Every Believer" Meaning that a believer could "handle scriptures" and bring their own sins before God. Before this point a priest and a sacrifice was necessary.

Your post included..."Paul went about destroying circumcisions."...
The Baptist don't baptize infants because there are no instances of babies being baptized in the bible.

The Presbyterians do....because they feel baptism replaces the OT covenant sign of circumcision. The NT sign of covenant is infant baptism rather than circumcision.

The RC church baptized infants for reasons no where close to why the Protestants baptize babies.

 

[Jim Parker]

Where does it say water only or even that Jesus ever baptized with water?

It doesn't say "water only" and I never said "water only." What are you talking about?
It doesn't say Jesus baptized in water. He didn't come to baptize. He came to die and rise again.

What about all who are incapacitated that can't be dunked in water, does that mean they are none of God?

We have the example of the thief on the cross who was unable to be baptized. It has been posted more than once. Why do you ask what has already been answered?

Then there is the debate over full immersion and being sprinkled, which of these are scriptural?

See what the first century church taught in the Didache. (The teaching of the twelve) It says to do whatever you are able to do.
But don't believe me; look it up for yourself. It's readily available on line.

There is nothing wrong with being baptized in water as it is only an outward appearance to others that you have repented and nothing more.

OH, I see. Just an empty ritual tyou like to do when someone joins your club in spite of what Paul explicitly stated.
Why don't you believe what the scripture says baptism is? (RO 6:3-4)

I was baptized in water unto repentance as an outward appearance,

Oh, I see. It was just for outward appearances because, according to Jesus, outward appearances are really important,right?
Oh! No! He said they mean nothing.
So why did you bother?

Many baptize babies which I was when I was a baby and sprinkled with water, but how can a baby repent or even have the knowledge of sin.

Where does scripture say a baby has to repent or have knowledge of sin? Nowhere.
Where does scripture say to only baptize adults? Nowhere.

Jesus commanded that all disciples be baptized.
I still don't understand why you have a problem obeying what the one you call "Lord" commanded of you or why you have to try and make it just an "outward appearance" rather than what scripture says it is.



iakov the fool

 

[JohnDB]

Obviously it is NOT clear to you.
Nowhere in those verses does the scripture say that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit replaces baptism in water.
YOU have inserted that unblblical notion into the scripture. It is not there in God's word.

In the instance WIP quoted from the Book of Acts...the "Gentiles" had not been permitted to be baptized by the believing Jews...until Peter showed up.

Today things are not the same.
In fact just the reverse.

People don't understand the ritual... And for that reason they don't want to be baptized.
People know about its existence but think it odd to perform. They are much more inclined to reality instead of ceremony.

 

[for_his_glory]

The baptism in the Holy Spirit is not a replacement for baptism in water. Jesus said that, in order to enter the kingdom of heaven, one must be born again of water (see Ro 6:3-4) and of the Spirit. That's baptism in water for regeneration (united with Christ in His death and resurrection to new life) and of Spirit. (Baptized in the Holy Spirit.)
If baptism in the Holy Spirit were a replacement for baptism in water, then the book of Acts would not be replete with examples of believers being baptized in water.

The baptism in water of the household of Cornelius AFTER they were baptized in the Holy Spirit clearly demonstrates the fact (to those with eyes to see) that the apostles expected new believers to experience BOTH baptisms.
Act 10:44-48 (NKJV) While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. (That's the baptism in the Holy Spirit) And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. (again, there's the baptism of the Holy Spirit)
Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. (And that baptism is in obedience to Jesus' command to baptize disciples in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. see Mat 28:19)

But that's just what that inspired, inerrant, infallible, sola scriptura thingy says. :wink

iakov the fool

What does dirty river water have to do with being Spiritually born again? John's baptism in water was only for repentance as they repented first and the water was symbolic for the blood of Jesus that would be spilled later as we are now washed in the blood of Christ. I already gave those scriptures about water meaning the word of God as in His living water and will re-post them again if you missed them.
The word water in John 3:5 means the living word of God as in John 4:13,14; Acts 10:47; Hebrews 10:22; John 5:6,8; Rev 21:6; 22:1,17; Matthew 3:11; Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16; John 1:32-34; Acts 11:16

 

[Jim Parker]

If baptism was required for salvation then the bible would have also been a bit more clear on that topic. You would see it repeated over and over.

Mar 16:16 (NKJV) He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."
Act 2:38 (NKJV) Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 19:4-6 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.” When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

How many times does one need to be told? It is what the church has been teaching since the days of the apostles?

 

[JohnDB]

Your post included..."Paul went about destroying circumcisions."...
The Baptist don't baptize infants because there are no instances of babies being baptized in the bible.

The Presbyterians do....because they feel baptism replaces the OT covenant sign of circumcision. The NT sign of covenant is infant baptism rather than circumcision.

The RC church baptized infants for reasons no where close to why the Protestants baptize babies.

Yes, it's called a Christening...it isn't a baptism at all... Even if it appears to be one.
And I wish the Baptists would Christen Babies...and use ice cold water to do it... The cold startles the infants and gets them to scream and cry for a minute...which is a wonderful sound of life from one so tiny.

 

[Cygnus]

What does dirty river water have to do with being Spiritually born again? John's baptism in water was only for repentance as they repented first and the water was symbolic for the blood of Jesus that would be spilled later as we are now washed in the blood of Christ. I already gave those scriptures about water meaning the word of God as in His living water and will re-post them again if you missed them.
The word water in John 3:5 means the living word of God as in John 4:13,14; Acts 10:47; Hebrews 10:22; John 5:6,8; Rev 21:6; 22:1,17; Matthew 3:11; Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16; John 1:32-34; Acts 11:16

Your post included..."was symbolic for the blood of Jesus that would be spilled later as we are now washed in the blood of Christ."

Do you think the Jews understood that at the time John was baptizing them?

 

[Cygnus]

Mar 16:16 (NKJV) He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."
Act 2:38 (NKJV) Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 19:4-6 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.” When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

How many times does one need to be told? It is what the church has been teaching since the days of the apostles?

Well, lets look at the first one.
Mar 16:16 (NKJV) He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."
OK, sounds good....but lets finish the verse then ask a question about the verse...
The verse continuse with...but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.....

Q...why doesn't Mark 16:16 say "but he who has disbelieved and is not baptized shall be condemned.

Why is baptism left out from the concluding part of the statement? I don't know if I would hang my hat and be dogmatic on that verse and say water baptism is required for salvation.

 

[Jim Parker]

In the instance WIP quoted from the Book of Acts...the "Gentiles" had not been permitted to be baptized by the believing Jews...until Peter showed up.

That's NOT what the scritpture says.
Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.
Act 8:14-15 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
NOWHERE does the scripture say that any gentiles were not permitted to be baptized until Peter showed up.

They are much more inclined to reality instead of ceremony.

So when Paul says that in baptism we are joined with Christ in His death and resurrection it not a reality?
It's just an empty ceremony?
Then we have no hope for the resurrection and Christi wasted his time.

The refusal of self-proclaimed Christians to believe what the scripture explicitly states is bewildering to me.
What do people who call themselves by the name of Christ get out of denying, refuting and twisting His word?
Where's the glick in that deal?
I don't get it.

 

[Cygnus]

Yes, it's called a Christening...it isn't a baptism at all... Even if it appears to be one.
And I wish the Baptists would Christen Babies...and use ice cold water to do it... The cold startles the infants and gets them to scream and cry for a minute...which is a wonderful sound of life from one so tiny.

Basically the whole event is the parents and congregation promising to raise the child in a christian fashion.

...unfortunatly that promise get broken pretty quickly in many instances.