Is baptism required for salvation?

the grace of God is the living water

context of Jn 3:5 you say?
Jn 1: 11
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (Baptism)
John 1:26
John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)

John 2:6
And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)

John3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

John 3:22
After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism)

John 4:1
When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.

baptismal regeneration!

thks
I see that you "added" baptism in another verse (John 1:13 this time) where it does not belong. Adding to God's word seems to be a common practice in Roman Catholicism and baptismal regeneration is a false doctrine.

In regard to John 3:22, by this time Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus is over with and He has moved on. John 3:22 - After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing.

Verse 22 is out of context with verse 5. What is still in context with verse 5 is verses 14-18. Whoever believes in Him (apart from additions or modifications) receives eternal life. *No mention of baptism.
 
Only people who are saved are to be baptized in water; people who believe.

Believe is the condition to be saved.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” Acts 8:35-37


Babies do not have the capacity to believe and therefore be saved.
saved how? "faith alone"?

one microscopic act of faith is that it? and you have eternal salvation and automatic preservance?

are you saved the first moment you believed?

thks
 
Only people who are saved are to be baptized in water; people who believe.

Believe is the condition to be saved.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” Acts 8:35-37


Babies do not have the capacity to believe and therefore be saved.

Please fill in the blank...

Mark 16: 16: "Whoever believes _____ is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

a. and

b. need not

c. only so don't worry about
 
saved how? "faith alone"?

one microscopic act of faith is that it? and you have eternal salvation and automatic preservance?

are you saved the first moment you believed?

thks
Yes,This is the way in one moments time that eternal life in Him begins .
So says the Word of God .
:Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
 
Please fill in the blank...

Mark 16: 16: "Whoever believes _____ is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

a. and

b. need not

c. only so don't worry about
More importantly, note that this is the only verse by (possibly) Jesus that appears to suggest baptism is necessary for salvation. However, the first clause cannot be taken out of context by ignoring the second clause: "but whoever does not believe will be condemned." No mention of not being baptised.

Given that, along with the rest of the context of the gospels, strongly suggests that baptism is to be done out of obedience to Christ, but is not essential for salvation.
 
More importantly, note that this is the only verse by (possibly) Jesus that appears to suggest baptism is necessary for salvation. However, the first clause cannot be taken out of context by ignoring the second clause: "but whoever does not believe will be condemned." No mention of not being baptised.

Given that, along with the rest of the context of the gospels, strongly suggests that baptism is to be done out of obedience to Christ, but is not essential for salvation.
Only an anti-sacramentalist can read that and conclude baptism is merely a suggestion.

The teaching of Jesus in Mark 16.16 is NOT what is required to be damned, but rather what is required to be saved. The conclusion many of you are trying to reach-- which is that because not believing alone is sufficient to condemn, therefore believing alone is sufficient to be saved -- is both illogical, and false to the text.

First, our Blessed Lord describes two necessary conditions in the first clause: belief and baptism. In the second clause, He is describing a person who, by not believing, lacks the first essential condition. Ergo, that person will not be saved.

Second, why do you all seem to think that because Jesus doesn't mention baptism in the second clause, that He's taking back what He said about the need for baptism in the first clause? He was clearly understandable to the Apostles -- and to the entire Christian world except for a minority of Protestant dissenters -- to be saying that he who believes them when they preach the Gospel, and therefore believe their preaching of baptism for the remission of their sins (Act 2.38) -- and obey, will be saved. It's obvious that Jesus and His Apostles understood that no one who refused the Gospel was going to be baptized. Why would he?

Furthermore, you are being false to the text by attempting to use the second clause to nullify the first. Jesus already introduced belief as one of two necessary conditions for salvation in the first clause. Since the unbeliever in the second clause already lacks the one of the two essential conditions, there is no reason to even mention the second, which would be insufficient by itself. Why would there need to be a separate penalty for not being baptized or any other omission? The person who doesn't believe has already failed to meet one of the two necessary conditions that Jesus just laid down: belief and baptism. There is no logical need for an additional "penalty."

If baptism is just a suggestion, why did it become the regula fide immediately? Why does every ancient archaeological Christian site have a baptistry?
 
We have nnumerous passages of scripture that clearly teach, we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications" (Luke 7:50; 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; 20:31; Acts 4:4; 10:4; 10:43; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6, 9: 5:1-2; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-14, 26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:4, 13 etc..)

Then we have a handful of verses that "on the surface" appear to contradict those verses by "adding baptism" to salvation through belief/faith and if we run with the latter, then we end up contradicting those numerous clear passages of scripture and there are no contradictions in God's Word.

There are a handful of alleged proof texts that certain people use to try and prove that baptism is absolutely required for salvation, yet after a careful examination of each of those texts in context will show that none of them prove that baptism is absolutely required for salvation, though they do prove that baptism was an assumed initiatory response to the gospel of salvation. In other words, those texts prove only that baptism is regularly associated with conversion and salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation.

These Gentiles in Acts 10 received the gift of the Holy Spirit and were manifesting the spiritual gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit (which is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) after believing the gospel but before being water baptized. (Acts 10:43-47) Now baptism was not considered an "optional extra" for these Gentiles; it was a command (Acts 10:48) that they were expected to obey. However, it was not obedience to this command that saved them, but their believing in Christ for salvation. (Acts 10:43)
 
More importantly, note that this is the only verse by (possibly) Jesus that appears to suggest baptism is necessary for salvation. However, the first clause cannot be taken out of context by ignoring the second clause: "but whoever does not believe will be condemned." No mention of not being baptised.

Given that, along with the rest of the context of the gospels, strongly suggests that baptism is to be done out of obedience to Christ, but is not essential for salvation.
he who does not be will be condemned

believe what?

any kind of faith ok?

no he who does not believe the revelation of Jesus "he who believes and is baptized shall be saved"!

Amen?
 
More importantly, note that this is the only verse by (possibly) Jesus that appears to suggest baptism is necessary for salvation. However, the first clause cannot be taken out of context by ignoring the second clause: "but whoever does not believe will be condemned." No mention of not being baptised.

Given that, along with the rest of the context of the gospels, strongly suggests that baptism is to be done out of obedience to Christ, but is not essential for salvation.
two requirements
faith and baptism

if they reject the first requirement what logical reason is there for mentioning the other requirement?
 
More importantly, note that this is the only verse by (possibly) Jesus that appears to suggest baptism is necessary for salvation. However, the first clause cannot be taken out of context by ignoring the second clause: "but whoever does not believe will be condemned." No mention of not being baptised.

Given that, along with the rest of the context of the gospels, strongly suggests that baptism is to be done out of obedience to Christ, but is not essential for salvation.
baptism is necessary

Acts 10:47
Can any man forbid water, that theseshould not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
 
Only an anti-sacramentalist can read that and conclude baptism is merely a suggestion.
Wrong on two counts. I am neither an anti-sacramentalist nor do I think baptism is merely a suggestion. It is commanded and we are to do it joyfully with thankfulness to God for our salvation and entrance into the new covenant, but it doesn't save us. You don't find it odd that Jesus "apparently" taught this to the eleven, but never once taught it to anyone else when he was talking about salvation?

The teaching of Jesus in Mark 16.16 is NOT what is required to be damned, but rather what is required to be saved. The conclusion many of you are trying to reach-- which is that because not believing alone is sufficient to condemn, therefore believing alone is sufficient to be saved -- is both illogical, and false to the text.

First, our Blessed Lord describes two necessary conditions in the first clause: belief and baptism. In the second clause, He is describing a person who, by not believing, lacks the first essential condition. Ergo, that person will not be saved.

Second, why do you all seem to think that because Jesus doesn't mention baptism in the second clause, that He's taking back what He said about the need for baptism in the first clause? He was clearly understandable to the Apostles -- and to the entire Christian world except for a minority of Protestant dissenters -- to be saying that he who believes them when they preach the Gospel, and therefore believe their preaching of baptism for the remission of their sins (Act 2.38) -- and obey, will be saved. It's obvious that Jesus and His Apostles understood that no one who refused the Gospel was going to be baptized. Why would he?

Furthermore, you are being false to the text by attempting to use the second clause to nullify the first. Jesus already introduced belief as one of two necessary conditions for salvation in the first clause. Since the unbeliever in the second clause already lacks the one of the two essential conditions, there is no reason to even mention the second, which would be insufficient by itself. Why would there need to be a separate penalty for not being baptized or any other omission? The person who doesn't believe has already failed to meet one of the two necessary conditions that Jesus just laid down: belief and baptism. There is no logical need for an additional "penalty."
Those are valid points regarding Mark 16:16, however, there is more to take into consideration. As mailmandan noted, Jesus said a lot regarding belief for salvation, but little (likely nothing) about baptism. For instance:

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (ESV)

Three times Jesus mentions belief as necessary for salvation in a positive sense and twice in a negative sense, in just four verses. That would have been a great time to mention the need for baptism, yet he doesn't. There are several more times in John alone where Jesus mentions only belief, which is why John himself reiterates that teaching, most notably at the very beginning and at the ending of his gospel (John 1:12; 20:31).

It's worth noting that your argument largely rests on a passage whose authenticity is questionable and is most likely a later addition.

As for Acts 2:38, it's worth noting that "repent" is plural, but "be baptized" is singular. That suggests that repentance is what is necessary for salvation, for forgiveness of sins, and baptism is distinct from that but is to immediately follow.

Given the preponderance of NT evidence, baptism is not required for salvation. Being saved is the prerequisite for baptism and so baptism is to follow salvation, as a public sign of entering the new covenant, but it is not a requirement for salvation.

It is also worth noting that baptism in the Bible is always "believer's baptism." That is, one first believes and then is baptized on the basis of that belief. This seriously calls into question the Catholic tradition (and some Protestant ones) of baptizing infants, where baptism comes years before belief and sometimes belief never comes.

You said: "It's obvious that Jesus and His Apostles understood that no one who refused the Gospel was going to be baptized. Why would he?" Then why would the CC baptize infants who are, by definition, unbelievers? They haven't refused the gospel but neither can they accept it. Doesn't that imply that baptism saves? Are adults rebaptized after they make a confession of Christ as Lord? It not, why isn't the biblical way followed?

If baptism is just a suggestion, why did it become the regula fide immediately? Why does every ancient archaeological Christian site have a baptistry?
I never said that baptism itself was just a suggestion.
 
Wrong on two counts. I am neither an anti-sacramentalist nor do I think baptism is merely a suggestion. It is commanded and we are to do it joyfully with thankfulness to God for our salvation and entrance into the new covenant, but it doesn't save us. You don't find it odd that Jesus "apparently" taught this to the eleven, but never once taught it to anyone else when he was talking about salvation?


Those are valid points regarding Mark 16:16, however, there is more to take into consideration. As mailmandan noted, Jesus said a lot regarding belief for salvation, but little (likely nothing) about baptism. For instance:

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (ESV)

Three times Jesus mentions belief as necessary for salvation in a positive sense and twice in a negative sense, in just four verses. That would have been a great time to mention the need for baptism, yet he doesn't. There are several more times in John alone where Jesus mentions only belief, which is why John himself reiterates that teaching, most notably at the very beginning and at the ending of his gospel (John 1:12; 20:31).

It's worth noting that your argument largely rests on a passage whose authenticity is questionable and is most likely a later addition.

As for Acts 2:38, it's worth noting that "repent" is plural, but "be baptized" is singular. That suggests that repentance is what is necessary for salvation, for forgiveness of sins, and baptism is distinct from that but is to immediately follow.

Given the preponderance of NT evidence, baptism is not required for salvation. Being saved is the prerequisite for baptism and so baptism is to follow salvation, as a public sign of entering the new covenant, but it is not a requirement for salvation.

It is also worth noting that baptism in the Bible is always "believer's baptism." That is, one first believes and then is baptized on the basis of that belief. This seriously calls into question the Catholic tradition (and some Protestant ones) of baptizing infants, where baptism comes years before belief and sometimes belief never comes.

You said: "It's obvious that Jesus and His Apostles understood that no one who refused the Gospel was going to be baptized. Why would he?" Then why would the CC baptize infants who are, by definition, unbelievers? They haven't refused the gospel but neither can they accept it. Doesn't that imply that baptism saves? Are adults rebaptized after they make a confession of Christ as Lord? It not, why isn't the biblical way followed?


I never said that baptism itself was just a suggestion.
Scripture is explicit:

1 Peter 3:20-21 ---> "...to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ..."

In Christianity, matter...matters.

First, water in salvation history brings both death and life. It represents the destruction of the old (former ways) and recreates something new. The waters of the deluge washed the sinners away, and through it something new was created. Thus Noah and his family were saved from sin through the waters of the deluge.

Second, St. Peter draws the parallel between the saving waters of the deluge for Noah and that of the saving waters of baptism for you and I. However, he goes through the trouble of the exclusion, "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God" to demonstrate the effects of the waters of baptism act not on the exterior (washing the flesh), but rather interiorly, on the conscience and soul of man.

Baptism is the anti-type of the waters of the deluge. The waters of baptism now cleanse not our flesh, but our sin. (cf. Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Titus 3:5) Hence its effect is not on our flesh (i.e. removal of dirt), but rather on our interior. Through our baptism, we are made anew. (cf. John 3:5, Romans 6:4)
 
Please fill in the blank...

Mark 16: 16: "Whoever believes _____ is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

a. and

b. need not

c. only so don't worry about

A. And; … and is baptized.


Which baptizm is the one by which we are saved?

A. The Spirit baptizes us into Christ? 1 Cor 12:13

B. A person baptizes us in water? Acts 1:5

C. Jesus baptizes us with the Holy Spirit? Acts 1:5
 
A. And; … and is baptized.


Which baptizm is the one by which we are saved?

A. The Spirit baptizes us into Christ? 1 Cor 12:13

B. A person baptizes us in water? Acts 1:5

C. Jesus baptizes us with the Holy Spirit? Acts 1:5
There is only one baptism...

Ephesians 4:5 ---> "There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism."

Nicene Creed ---> "I confess one baptism..."
 
it is the grace of justification part of the process of salvation
Justification is the initial moment of salvation. It is in the past for the believer (we are saved). Then comes sanctification (we are being saved), then glorification (we will be saved).

not an absolute requirement but and ordinarily requirement
I don't understand what your point is here.
 
Justification is the initial moment of salvation. It is in the past for the believer (we are saved). Then comes sanctification (we are being saved), then glorification (we will be saved).


I don't understand what your point is here.
ordinary requirements is in the ordinary occurrence of life it is readily available and required, to reject it would be fatal
 
Justification is the initial moment of salvation. It is in the past for the believer (we are saved). Then comes sanctification (we are being saved), then glorification (we will be saved).


I don't understand what your point is here.
are saved?

mk 13;13
matt 10:22
matt 24:13
 
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