Is belief "works"?

[Davies]

Good morning,

I wonder if we have repented enough?

- Davies

 

[Webb]

Good morning,

I wonder if we have repented enough?

- Davies

Hi Davies
I believe to repent is the hardest thing for a man or woman to do, yet it must be done or we "perish." Perhaps some of us (including myself for I have fallen far short of the mark) have not repented enough. I always stand in need of His forgiveness, grace and mercy.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Can a person be unrepentant and be saved. Lk 13:3,5 ? No

Can a person deny Christ, not confess Christ and be saved, Matt 10:32-33, Rom 10:9,10 ? No

Can a person not be water baptized and be saved, Mk 16;16 Acts 2:38 ? No

So a saving, biblical belief must include repentance confession and baptism else it is a dead belief that cannot save.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Eph 2:8-9

So are you trying to say a man is saved in unbelief?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So a saving, biblical belief must include repentance confession and baptism else it is a dead belief that cannot save.

Without reading this whole thread I know it only necessary to point out to you that this doesn't mean we are justified (given right standing before God) by doing those things. That is what you fail to understand. Only faith in God's provision of forgiveness can justify a person (MAKE them to have right standing before God).

Repentance, confession, baptism, and any other righteous work you may want to try to defend, are but the result of the faith that justifies and makes righteous (and able to save) all by itself apart from works. Obedience does not MAKE you righteous before God. Only the blood of Christ can do that. Obedience SHOWS you to have the faith that makes you righteous before God.

 

[rrowell]

Obedience does not MAKE you righteous before God. Only the blood of Christ can do that.

So let me get this strait, your saying since Christ died on the cross, every man is righteous? since Christ died for all you must believe all men since are righteous...

Do you see the problem with that theory?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So let me get this strait, your saying since Christ died on the cross, every man is righteous? since Christ died for all you must believe all men since are righteous...

Do you see the problem with that theory?

Explain how you got that out of what I said.

Then I'll answer your question.

 

[Davies]

Hi Davies
I believe to repent is the hardest thing for a man or woman to do, yet it must be done or we "perish." Perhaps some of us (including myself for I have fallen far short of the mark) have not repented enough. I always stand in need of His forgiveness, grace and mercy.

Hi Webb,

I believe you're telling me the truth. I don't think we ever repent enough. How could we? We have so many sins, that we might have a better chance of counting the grains of sands on a beach than repenting appropriately of all our sin, not to mention the sins we aren't aware of. I think the main crux of repentance comes from valuing what God has done and who He is. This repentance will encompass all our sin, and though we strive to do good in God's eyes, it should be motivated by our love for the Savior, for what He has done and is doing. I'll stand with you in always needing His forgiveness, grace, and mercy.

- Davies

 

[rrowell]

Explain how you got that out of what I said.

Then I'll answer your question.

I quoted you, it was your statement, Ill quote it again:

Originally Posted by Jethro Bodine
Obedience does not MAKE you righteous before God. Only the blood of Christ can do that.

Above you say only the blood of Christ can make one righteous, and I said since the blood of Christ was for everyone, and unless you deny that, everyone by your statement must be righteous...

So we know that cannot be, therefore it is obedience to the one who shed his ever cleansing blood that makes and keeps us righteous.

 

[rrowell]

Hi Webb,

I believe you're telling me the truth. I don't think we ever repent enough. How could we? We have so many sins, that we might have a better chance of counting the grains of sands on a beach than repenting appropriately of all our sin, not to mention the sins we aren't aware of. I think the main crux of repentance comes from valuing what God has done and who He is. This repentance will encompass all our sin, and though we strive to do good in God's eyes, it should be motivated by our love for the Savior, for what He has done and is doing. I'll stand with you in always needing His forgiveness, grace, and mercy.

- Davies

I will say one thing about you Davies,

I don't believe the Bible teaches that the "only" thing one must do to be saved is to be humble, for if it did, you without any doubt would be a shoe in...

 

[Davies]

I will say one thing about you Davies,

I don't believe the Bible teaches that the "only" thing one must do to be saved is to be humble, for if it did, you without any doubt would be a shoe in...

Hi rrowell,

That's nice for you to say. I'm not always so humble, just ask farouk. If anything, we have the Scriptures, and I hope God will reveal to us what we need to know, and give us the wisdom to do it.

- Davies

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Without reading this whole thread I know it only necessary to point out to you that this doesn't mean we are justified (given right standing before God) by doing those things. That is what you fail to understand. Only faith in God's provision of forgiveness can justify a person (MAKE them to have right standing before God).

Rom 6:16-18 the Romans obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine, then being freed from sins - justified.

Rom 3:28 Rom 5:1 man is justified by faith.


Rom 6------obedience----------------->justifes
Rom 5------faith---------------------->justifies

since there is one way to be justifed/saved, faith must include obeying that form of doctrine as the Romans fiath inlcuded obedience.


James 2:21 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"
James 2:24 " Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

Abraham's obedience was why God justified him. And our obeying the gospel (God has vengeance upon those that do not obey the gospel, 2 Thess 1:8 ) by believing, repenting confessing and being baptized is why God justifies us. People are not justified randomly or for no particular reason.

Repentance, confession, baptism, and any other righteous work you may want to try to defend, are but the result of the faith that justifies and makes righteous (and able to save) all by itself apart from works. Obedience does not MAKE you righteous before God. Only the blood of Christ can do that. Obedience SHOWS you to have the faith that makes you righteous before God.

Repentance confession and baptism is not something I have to defend for it is something God has required a man to do before he can be saved. They are not my ideas that I must defend. The unrepentant wil not be saved, the one who denies Christ will not be saved, the one who's sins have not been remitted will not be saved. Therefore a saving faith must include repentance confession and baptism.

In Rom 6:16 Paul said you serve either one of two masters, you serve either:

1) sin unto death
or
2) obedience unto rightesouness.


Your theology ruled out #2 for you. And as Paul shows in Rom 6:16 that obedience does lead to righteousness. No other way to ever be righteous than by obeying God's righteousness. And one remains in a state of unrighteusness until he 'worketh righteousness" where he can then be accepted by God, Acts 10:35 The blood of Christ cleanses the sins only of those that obey Him. A person's sins are not cleanse by Christ's blood for some unknown or random reason.

 

[rrowell]

Hi rrowell,

That's nice for you to say. I'm not always so humble, just ask farouk. If anything, we have the Scriptures, and I hope God will reveal to us what we need to know, and give us the wisdom to do it.

- Davies

Not meaning to side track the thread, but maybe break the ice a little, we must all try to remember, when in debate, it is not about "winning" or "losing" to one side or the other, but for both sides of the debate to find the truth (this way everyone wins)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...you say only the blood of Christ can make one righteous, and I said since the blood of Christ was for everyone, and unless you deny that, everyone by your statement must be righteous...

No, that is ridiculous. Only those who access the grace of God THROUGH FAITH are justified by the grace of Jesus' blood given to mankind. This is clear Biblical teaching.

"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith..." (Ephesians 2:8 NASB)

Faith in Christ's blood for the forgiveness of sins is the conduit through which we access the grace of God. When we have that faith we then do what is appropriate and fitting to one who has that faith.

Does a person forgive who has not first truly been forgiven some weight of sin of their own? "We love (obey) because he first loved us" (1 John 4:19 NASB) . We access the grace of God's love through our faith and trust in that love, our obedience being the signifying mark of having done that. Our obedience being like a circumcision in our flesh. And just like literal circumcision, not a circumcision to MAKE us righteous, but a circumcision that SHOWS us to be righteous.

From a purely theoretical point of view does a person get baptized because they don't have faith in the blood of Christ? (I know some do who think they have faith in the blood). Does a person live a life of love according to the commandment to 'love your neighbor as yourself' because they don't have that same grace of God's love in their own lives through faith in the blood of Christ?

So we know that cannot be, therefore it is obedience to the one who shed his ever cleansing blood that makes and keeps us righteous.

No, obedience SHOWS us to be continuing in the faith that justifies (the faith that saves) because having been made right with God through the removal of sin guilt has consequence on a person's behavior. We love and do right because we first had faith in God's promise to remove sin guilt through the blood of Jesus.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

No, that is ridiculous. Only those who access the grace of God THROUGH FAITH are justified by the grace of Jesus' blood given to mankind. This is clear Biblical teaching.

"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith..." (Ephesians 2:8 NASB)

Faith in Christ's blood for the forgiveness of sins is the conduit through which we access the grace of God. When we have that faith we then do what is appropriate and fitting to one who has that faith.

But if faith does not include repentance, confession and baptism does that mean the unrepentant, the one who denies Christ and the one who has not had his sins remitted still have access to receive God's grace?

One absolutely does not have access to grace with a faith void of repentance, confession and baptism for a dead, void faith cannot access anything.

 

[Davies]

Rom 6:16-18 the Romans obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine, then being freed from sins - justified.

Rom 3:28 Rom 5:1 man is justified by faith.


Rom 6------obedience----------------->justifes
Rom 5------faith---------------------->justifies

since there is one way to be justifed/saved, faith must include obeying that form of doctrine

Ernest T. Bass,

How does one come to obedience? How does one have faith?

We know that faith and the righteousness of God/Jesus are a gifts. That means we didn't do anything to earn them.

John 3:27

New King James Version (NKJV)

27 John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven.


Did we do anything to get faith? We didn't. Does God grant us repentance? He does. Though repentance and obedience is required, we cannot bring this about without God's initiation. Jesus commanded us to be perfect. How can we be perfect in the flesh? We can be perfect in Jesus. So when Jesus tells us to be perfect like our Father is in Heaven, He's saying put your faith in Me. Depending on what we believe, our faith will determine what we do; and what we do will show the world what we believe. Of course, to view someone's motivation is next to impossible, so we have the exhortation to not judge one another or even ourselves.


1 Corinthians 4:3-5

New King James Version (NKJV)

3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court.[a] In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.

- Davies

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Rom 6:16-18 the Romans obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine, then being freed from sins - justified.

Why do you think this passage means we are MADE righteous by our obedience to the new nature????

You have to be careful. Righteousness means both, legal right standing with God, and literal righteous deeds. We know he's talking about literal righteous behavior, not legal standing, by the fact that he says we are sanctified by that righteous behavior. It's clearly talking about literal righteous behavior.

If you want to insist Paul is saying we are made legally righteous by our obedience to the new nature then it negates everything he says about having a righteousness apart from righteous works and how only forgiveness can give us legal right standing before God.

I'll be back.

 

[rrowell]

No, obedience SHOWS us to be continuing in the faith that justifies (the faith that saves) because having been made right with God through the removal of sin guilt has consequence on a person's behavior. We love and do right because we first had faith in God's promise to remove sin guilt through the blood of Jesus.

So according one can be saved while in a sinful state?

 

[Davies]

"I'll be back." (Austrian accent) - Jethro

- Davies

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So according one can be saved while in a sinful state?

How can one be in a legal sinful state if they believe that their sin guilt has been wiped away in Christ?

A progressive life of increasing sinlessness is how we KNOW a person's legal sin guilt has been wiped away.