Is belief "works"?

[dadof10]

Reading "the rest of the story" we know he failed.

Of course he did, we all do. I'm sure there was a time before this time when he wasn't "righteous", but through obedience to "the commandments and ordinances of the Lord" he and Elisabeth were made righteous. This verse refutes OSAS because at the time recorded, they were both "righteous", not by faith alone, but by keeping the commandments. Later, they (Zacharias, at least) failed.

 

[Agape]

faith in us is a work of God because Jesus is the author and perfecter of our faith, Hebrews 12:2.

Agreed!
John 6:28-29 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?†Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.â€

So, when SBG says belief is a "work", does he mean "work of God"?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Let's look at Gal. 3 IN CONTEXT and see if Paul says Abraham had "faith in the seed promised to Eve".

How in the world can you interpret the "promise" as "faith in the seed", or in Christ here? You have Paul saying that Christ was promised TO CHRIST!!! Absurd!!!

You sure didn't waste any time twisting what I said, lol.

Again, Paul is contrasting the "promise of the Spirit through faith" with all law....no, wait...the moral law...no, that's not it...uhhh....the Mosaic Law...That's it...

Wait, slow down and start listening to yourself. Paul is contrasting the promise of the Spirit that comes through what, dadof10? Plainly answer that without any of your twists and spins on it...then show me in the Bible the scripture that I asked you to show me twice in my last post that says we are justified when we do righteous work.

Did the moral law, or whatever you mean by "all law", come 430 years after Abraham? Do you think Paul is talking about "all" law here? This is yet another proof that by "law" Paul means the Mosaic Law, as if you needed any more. The evidence is overwhelming....but I digress...

Did you forget? In all your spinning are you forgetting, or confusing the arguments being made here...including your own?

You are the one that is sure that the law that Paul says can not justify a man is only speaking of the law of circumcision (and other ceremonial laws, too, I think), and thus defending James use of lawful commands to tell us that a man is justified by what he does (as if he's using 'justified' in the same meaning Paul is).

Certainly there was a promised "Seed" and it is Christ, but Paul is not speaking to this subject here.

"16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ." (Galatians 3:16 NIV1984)

You're being irrational.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you believe that it's ONLY faith that justifies? Don't you believe that James is talking about "saving faith" here? Don't you believe that Rahab was justified by her "SAVING FAITH", which was demonstrated by her ACTIONS?

This is mainline Protestant doctrine. Rahab's faith that the promises made to Abraham would be fulfilled was seen in what she did. IOW, she was justified (SHOWN to have faith in the promises made to Abraham) by what she did, not MADE righteous by what she did. Her faith in the promise made to Abraham (that his seed would inherit the land she dwelt in) did that all by itself (Paul's argument).

So I'm not accused of "twisting" or "distracting", let me lay this out for you, Jethro.

1) According to you, Rahab and Abraham were justified by their faith alone.
2) According to you, James is all about a "saving faith" that is "shown" by "works".
3) According to you, when Rahab "received the messengers...", she was "showing" her "saving faith".
4) The author of Hebrews makes a reference to Rahab's "faith" and this act in Hebrews 11.
5) There is no difference to the author of Hebrews between Rahab's "faith" and all the other "faith"'s mentioned.

Without thinking about it too deeply, I'd say good so far.

6) If the "faith" of Rahab's was "saving", then the other references to "faith" in the chapter are "saving" also.

Only if the faith spoken of--which was then seen in what it did--was faith in the promise made to Abraham of the Seed to come, who we now know to be Jesus.

Remember, the chapter is an exhortation to persevere to the end...to 'live by faith to the end' even though you do not receive what is promised in this life, as these examples in Hebrews show us. You're trying to make it a chapter that proves that any and all faith, no matter what that faith is in, saves. Show me where it says this. That's all you have to do. I showed you where it's a teaching about persevering in faith (Hebrews 11:13, Hebrews 11:26, Hebrews 11:39) and are examples of people hoping in faith for that which they did not have (Romans 8:24) and did not receive while still alive.

It's not a teaching to teach us that any and all faith, no matter the object of that faith, justifies. But you have to make it that, even though it doesn't say that, to prove that Abraham was declared righteous prior to Genesis 15. The Bible doesn't say that. It simply doesn't. If it does show me. That's all you have to do.

I'm confident that Abraham had faith in what he was told by God in Genesis 12. But for reasons we now know this side of Christ, God does not tell us he is reckoned as righteous by his faith until he learns about and believes in the specific promise of a son. All you have to do is show me where it says in the Bible he was declared righteous in Genesis 12 to show us what you say is true.

Since it's a FACT he was justified TWICE, OSAS is a man-made myth.

What does OSAS have to do with what I believe?

As it was for Abraham, so it is for us: A person is credited legal righteousness by their faith in God's promise of a Son (not by his obedience because of his faith in the promise of a Son, nor by the faith to simply go to church, or read a Bible, etc.). This is the very gospel message of God. Anyone teaching that a person is made righteous by having the faith to go to church, read a Bible, pray, etc. is teaching a false gospel...a gospel that can not save.

Now the point is, you have to persevere in the faith that justifies--faith in the promise of a Son, the promised Seed--to continue in the justification that faith provides and receive the reward of that perseverance. This is not a continual re-justifying. I'm not saying this for your benefit because you just blew it off the other times it was shown to you in the Bible. I'm saying it for the benefit of anyone else reading who doesn't know this and is looking for the truth (I'm using your erroneous doctrine as a spring board to do that). Hebrews 10 speaks of being made perfect in God's sight one time, forever by the sacrifice of Christ, not a series of times of being justified (made legally perfect) before God:

10 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins?

14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:1-2, 14 NASB)

The point of Hebrews is that you must continue in your faith in that one time declaration of perfection (justification) in order to remain in that one time declaration of righteousness. So you can see this has nothing to do with OSAS.

But anyway, this is an example of letting the scriptures speak plainly for themselves...air tight and irrefutable.

 

[savedbygrace57]

So let me get this right:

1) You state that belief is a work
2) You agree that the jailer had to believe to be saved
3) You say that work does not save.

Thanks for explaining your explanation.

Salvation is not by Works. If one teachs that, they teach a false way of Salvation, and Believing is an work man does ! Here is the definition of a work, its the greek word ergon:


business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Now, is believing an act done by man ? Is it done with the mind ? If yes, then its a work !

 

[Grazer]

Salvation is not by Works. If one teachs that, they teach a false way of Salvation, and Believing is an work man does ! Here is the definition of a work, its the greek word ergon:


business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Now, is believing an act done by man ? Is it done with the mind ? If yes, then its a work !

You're still ignoring the passages where we are told to love God with our minds. What do you think Jesus meant by this?

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[Davies]

Agreed!
John 6:28-29 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?†Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.â€

So, when SBG says belief is a "work", does he mean "work of God"?

Hi Agape,

The 'work' of faith is believing on Jesus. I don't believe that our belief merits anything. It doesn't command forgiveness. We can repent all the days of our lives, and we could honestly say we never repented enough. But through God's promise, we put our trust in Jesus. The great exchange of our unrighteousness is imputed to Jesus, and His righteousness is imputed to us. This is all God's work. Again, I would reiterate that faith is the means by which we acquire forgiveness and righteousness. We are righteous to put our faith in Jesus, but this is sanctification versus justification. Only by the righteousness of Jesus are we justified by the Holy God. God works in us to do and to will according to His good pleasure, Philippians 2:13, sanctification not justification. To do the works of God is to believe, meaning to be transformed into the image of Jesus, a life long affair. So in John 6:28-29, I don't believe this to mean works for justification, legal status before God. That work was done when Jesus breathed His last on the cross when He said, 'It is finished.'

So, I do believe that belief is a work to answer the title of the thread, but not for justification. I'm sorry this was kind of redundant, but as discerning adults, I don't think we are allowed to be wrong on this.

- Davies

 

[savedbygrace57]

You're still ignoring the passages where we are told to love God with our minds. What do you think Jesus meant by this?

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Loving with the mind is a work. The definition of the word work:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

 

[Grazer]

Loving with the mind is a work. The definition of the word work:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Repeating the same point doesn't answer the question about what you think Jesus meant by love with our minds.

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[savedbygrace57]

Repeating the same point doesn't answer the question about what you think Jesus meant by love with our minds.

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It means what it says. Now:


Loving with the mind is a work. The definition of the word work:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

 

[Grazer]

It means what it says. Now:


Loving with the mind is a work. The definition of the word work:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

So you're saying Jesus commanded us to do something that's a false doctrine?

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[Agape]

Bullseye. End of thread./ And yet, here goes the merry go round again. :toofunny

Threads don't end with Davies, anything he writes is always worth reading, because his comments are usually relevant and often insightful. ;)

Quick to listen and slow to speak (James 1:19)

 

[savedbygrace57]

grazer

So you're saying Jesus commanded us to do something that's a false
doctrine?

No, no where close; He commanded what is a work. Its a work of the Mind ! However Salvation is not by works. This is a work

Loving with the mind is a work. The definition of the word work:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Also it was a Law. Salvation is not by keeping the Law !

 

[Grazer]

grazer



No, no where close; He commanded what is a work. Its a work of the Mind ! However Salvation is not by works. This is a work

Loving with the mind is a work. The definition of the word work:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Also it was a Law. Salvation is not by keeping the Law !

You're contradicting yourself. Am I to love God with my mind? If yes, is it salvation by works? If no, what did Jesus mean?

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[Deborah13]

Salvation is not by Works. If one teachs that, they teach a false way of Salvation, and Believing is an work man does ! Here is the definition of a work, its the greek word ergon:


business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Now, is believing an act done by man ? Is it done with the mind ? If yes, then its a work !

Titus 3:5

King James Version (KJV)

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Romans 10:9

King James Version (KJV)

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Just by reading the two scriptures above one can reasonably deduce that God does not consider "believe, belief, believing" as "works of righteousness"
If belief is considered by God to be a "work of righteousness" than which scripture above should we 'believe'? Or do we let God define belief and works of righteousness?

The definition you gave is correct for the word "work" as it stands alone. However, we have an adjective that describes the type of work, Righteous.
So is to believe in God a good thing, a right decision, yes. But we can clearly see in Rom. 10:9 that God does not define belief as this type of work because He tells us 'IF' we 'believe' to be saved. Which clearly states there is an option to not believe and therefore a decision to make.

He saves us by grace, through faith (which is a gift), not by righteous works.

God gives us all (a, the) measure of faith. Some are saved by that faith, some not they choose not to believe or to trust. Just as some will walk in that faith and walk on water but some will stay in the boat.

 

[Davies]

Hi Deborah,

I've run out of time this morning, so I can't give you my full thought on this. When reading Romans 10:9, I don't think anyone does this of their own free will. Though I think there could be a distinction made between the work of believing and actions, they still can be placed in the same category as a work, something we do. If we believe in our hearts and confess with our mouths, we are given the promise that God would save us, but the faith and the will we have is part of the sanctification process and is the work of God, Philippians 2:13. It's really easy to get sanctification and justification confused. In Romans 9, we see Scripture that many have difficulty with because it renders us powerless, but that's ok, because with God, all things are possible.
Romans 9:16-18

New King James Version (NKJV)

16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”[a] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.


Agape,

Thank you Agape. That was very nice of you to say.

- Davies

 

[Deborah13]

Hi Deborah,

I've run out of time this morning, so I can't give you my full thought on this. When reading Romans 10:9, I don't think anyone does this of their own free will. Though I think there could be a distinction made between the work of believing and actions, they still can be placed in the same category as a work, something we do. If we believe in our hearts and confess with our mouths, we are given the promise that God would save us, but the faith and the will we have is part of the sanctification process and is the work of God, Philippians 2:13. It's really easy to get sanctification and justification confused. In Romans 9, we see Scripture that many have difficulty with because it renders us powerless, but that's ok, because with God, all things are possible.
Romans 9:16-18

New King James Version (NKJV)

16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”[a] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.


Agape,

Thank you Agape. That was very nice of you to say.

- Davies

Hi Davies,

This is what I understand about justification. I am only justified by the righteous of Christ. saved - by grace, through faith no righteous works included.
This is what I understand about sanctification. After one is born again of the Spirit, indwelling, the Spirit works in me to bring me closer to the image of Christ, in my thoughts and actions. This is a process. Putting on the mind of Christ, renewing my mind by the Word, etc.

However, I do not believe the way Calvinists believe. I believe we have the free will to choose. Only by God's grace and the gift of faith can I do this because I do not have the power, understanding, etc. to do this on my own, I have "the old man nature" if you will. God enables me and because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit I can continue on to sanctification.

I don't have a problem with someone believing Calvin's doctrine for themselves but when they start telling people that if they are not a Christian it's because God doesn't want them, then I will speak up every now and then. "You were created evil and you will remain evil if God chooses not to choose you." Not all are wanted by God. That's want I hear in this doctrine.

The Holy Spirit will draw each person, send people to witness to them but I believe someone can reject all promoting.

I should have just said that I believe almost to the T everything that Mitspa believes and I think Jethro as far as his explanations of faith v works in James.

Blessings, Deborah

 

[farouk]

Deborah: I think human responsibility needs to be seen as going hand in hand with the need to rely totally on God's working by grace (Ephesians 2.8-9).

Blessings.

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah: I think human responsibility needs to be seen as going hand in hand with the need to rely totally on God's working by grace (Ephesians 2.8-9).

Blessings.

I totally agree, if we cooperate with the Holy Spirit we will walk in the Spirit and not walk in the flesh (those parts of our mind, actions, that have not come under submission to the will of God).

 

[farouk]

I totally agree, if we cooperate with the Holy Spirit we will walk in the Spirit and not walk in the flesh (those parts of our mind, actions, that have not come under submission to the will of God).

Deborah: It's a case of pursing the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5).

Blessings.

 

[gr8grace]

Hi Davies,

This is what I understand about justification. I am only justified by the righteous of Christ. saved - by grace, through faith no righteous works included.
This is what I understand about sanctification. After one is born again of the Spirit, indwelling, the Spirit works in me to bring me closer to the image of Christ, in my thoughts and actions. This is a process. Putting on the mind of Christ, renewing my mind by the Word, etc.

However, I do not believe the way Calvinists believe. I believe we have the free will to choose. Only by God's grace and the gift of faith can I do this because I do not have the power, understanding, etc. to do this on my own, I have "the old man nature" if you will. God enables me and because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit I can continue on to sanctification.

I don't have a problem with someone believing Calvin's doctrine for themselves but when they start telling people that if they are not a Christian it's because God doesn't want them, then I will speak up every now and then. "You were created evil and you will remain evil if God chooses not to choose you." Not all are wanted by God. That's want I hear in this doctrine.

The Holy Spirit will draw each person, send people to witness to them but I believe someone can reject all promoting.

I should have just said that I believe almost to the T everything that Mitspa believes and I think Jethro as far as his explanations of faith v works in James.

Blessings, Deborah

Hi Deb,

That is a refreshing post to read.

Sanctification is Complete for you in Gods eyes, you have the righteousness of Christ, and that is how God views you the moment you believe. Positional sanctification. 2 Cor 5:21

Experiential sanctification is the function of the spiritual life after salvation. The function of the spiritual life depends on the three spiritual skills: the filling of the Holy Spirit, the metabolization of metabolized doctrine, and the utilization of the ten problem solving devices. This produces experiential or spiritual righteousness. Our spiritual righteousness is capacity for divine blessing in time. As our spiritual righteousness increases, our capacity increases, and therefore our blessing in time from God increases. When we execute the protocol plan of God by reaching spiritual maturity, then we have the conveyance of our escrow blessings for time because we have the capacity to enjoy them from our spiritual righteousness.

I did the same thing with calvinism, if you draw it out to its logical conclusion, it makes our God to be a SOVEREIGN monster. And if you start at its logical beginning it makes God to be a SOVEREIGN monster.

But if you stay in the middle of its theology you can debate it forever.